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Dr.Ghastly wrote:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/state/...

Holy sh*tballs.

Odds are good that the new agency will be nowhere near as effective. Wonder how long it'll take for them to figure it out. One year? Five years? Ten?

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

IMAGE(http://www.escapeplan.org/chick/D%26D/2.gif)

21 years. 21 freaking years since I read that and I still perfectly get

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Blackleaf no!!!!

this reference.

This one and the one rock music one about witches and wizards casting spells on master recordings of all recorded music, even Christian stuff, are my favourites.

kazooka wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/state/...

Holy sh*tballs.

Odds are good that the new agency will be nowhere near as effective. Wonder how long it'll take for them to figure it out. One year? Five years? Ten?

What was that about relying on adoption and foster care systems as a totally awesome alternative to abortion, and thus why abortion should be legislated out of existence? Don't get me wrong, I would love if instead of aborting fetuses, we could let them come to term and be sent to loving homes with parents who want them... but seeing things like this when it comes to CPS departments around the country (and then getting into, "Who has the right to make a woman do something with her body that she doesn't want to?")... nope, clearly that system is broken too, and if we're relying on it being the fall back for children who would otherwise not have existed... we should probably fix it up a bit first.

If you completely throw away the old organization because "it wasn't protecting enough kids", that means the newly formed agency is going to be super aggressive about intervening and taking kids away from their parents.

England went down that path, but without the root-and-branch approach. After some scandal about five years ago, their equivalent of CPS has gotten extremely interventionist. It's gone badly wrong, to the point that an MP is recommending:

Parents 'should go abroad to avoid family courts'

Amy Howell, from Bristol, took her six-week-old baby boy, Harrison, to hospital because he was unwell in February 2008.

X-rays taken to assess him showed he had multiple fractures that Amy could not explain.

Blood tests showed Harrison had severe vitamin D deficiency, a condition that can lead to rickets and weaker bones.

But medical experts said the fractures were evidence of abuse and Harrison and his older sister were taken into care.

The children were placed with Amy's mother, but Harrison continued to be unwell.

The court eventually allowed Amy to appoint an alternative expert, a professor of genetics, who discovered that the family had an unusual history of broken bones and fractures.

Harrison was treated for rickets and a genetic bone disorder. The professor convinced the court and 18 months after they were taken away, Amy got her children back.

"We weren't even aware it was going to happen," said Amy. "I phoned social services and they dropped in, 'Oh, by the way, I suppose we better tell you that we're actually going to drop the case against you'.

"I sort of fell to the floor and everyone stared at me. I just sat there crying with the phone in my hand.

Malor wrote:

If you completely throw away the old organization because "it wasn't protecting enough kids", that means the newly formed agency is going to be super aggressive about intervening and taking kids away from their parents.

My worry is that the new agency will be headed by the current Chief Jailer of Juvie Hall. Child Protection and Juvenile Corrections are not the same.

sometimesdee wrote:

My worry is that the new agency will be headed by the current Chief Jailer of Juvie Hall. Child Protection and Juvenile Corrections are not the same.

That was my first thought as well: you don't put someone in charge of protecting kids whose last job was punishing kids. That's one hell of a mental gear to change.

OG_slinger wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:

My worry is that the new agency will be headed by the current Chief Jailer of Juvie Hall. Child Protection and Juvenile Corrections are not the same.

That was my first thought as well: you don't put someone in charge of protecting kids whose last job was punishing kids. That's one hell of a mental gear to change.

Oh good, I wasn't the only one thinking that sounded like a terrible idea.

OG_slinger wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:

My worry is that the new agency will be headed by the current Chief Jailer of Juvie Hall. Child Protection and Juvenile Corrections are not the same.

That was my first thought as well: you don't put someone in charge of protecting kids whose last job was punishing kids. That's one hell of a mental gear to change.

While I think that throwing away CPS is a wasteful measure which is likely to do more harm than good, are you sure that you're not jumping to conclusions without evidence on this point?

Juvenile corrections in many states is focused much more tightly on reform than the adult penal system. I have no idea about Arizona, but I do have relatives who have worked in the juvenile corrections system in other states (Wisconsin, Iowa) and at halfway houses, and the major thing I get from them is that there's an overriding concern about these kids' futures. Flanagan headed the investigation into the uninvestigated reports. His background shows involvement in a ton of community service organizations. It also says that he rose to his position from administering the academic and career technical education programs in the system, and was widely regarded as a pivotal source of positive change for the system itself. Nothing I've been able to find about him indicates that he's the "child punisher" you're describing.

I can't speak for OG or Demo, but I only viewed it as a concern. Another thing that people tend not to realize is that Child Protection is more about reforming the parents than the children.

LouZiffer wrote:

There are people who think child protection is about reforming the children? I would hope not.

The majority of the parents I've worked with expected me to either fix their kids, or take them off of their hands. (The rest just wanted retribution against the other parent.)

sometimesdee wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

There are people who think child protection is about reforming the children? I would hope not.

The majority of the parents I've worked with expected me to either fix their kids, or take them off of their hands. (The rest just wanted retribution against the other parent.)

True. We are talking about the viewpoint of CPS - or whatever organization fills that role. Not the parents.

sometimesdee wrote:

I can't speak for OG or Demo, but I only viewed it as a concern.

I agree that it's a concern. That's one reason why I chose to look into Flanagan's background before responding.

Another thing that people tend not to realize is that Child Protection is more about reforming the parents than the children.

There are people who think child protection is about reforming the children? I would hope not. I would also hope that Flanagan is smart enough to understand the difference.

From what I've been able to find, Flanagan seems like an excellent administrator who understands what it means to reform rather than punish, and how to manage an organization which has (or at least should have) that objective.

EDIT: Oh... and he's already demonstrated that he has the chops to oversee the investigative component of the organization - since he headed the investigations into the reports which CPS ignored. That is one of the main areas where I'd be concerned. So far everything I've seen points to his being the right guy for the job. It may be a long time before anyone knows whether the governor made the right decision by scrapping the whole organization though.

LouZiffer wrote:

While I think that throwing away CPS is a wasteful measure which is likely to do more harm than good, are you sure that you're not jumping to conclusions without evidence on this point?

Juvenile corrections in many states is focused much more tightly on reform than the adult penal system. I have no idea about Arizona, but I do have relatives who have worked in the juvenile corrections system in other states (Wisconsin, Iowa) and at halfway houses, and the major thing I get from them is that there's an overriding concern about these kids' futures. Flanagan headed the investigation into the uninvestigated reports. His background shows involvement in a ton of community service organizations. It also says that he rose to his position from administering the academic and career technical education programs in the system, and was widely regarded as a pivotal source of positive change for the system itself. Nothing I've been able to find about him indicates that he's the "child punisher" you're describing.

Flanagan was also a warden at two Arizona prisons and assistant director of the state Department of Corrections, the later during a time that Arizona prisons had raft of problems with the sexual abuse of prisoners as well as a nasty issue of prisoner suicide rate that was 60% higher than the national average that was linked to the departments aggressive use of long stretches of solitary confinement to punish prisoners and, disturbingly, as a way to warehouse mentally ill prisoners.

And all of that happened while the governor pushed to privatize Arizona's prison system more even while reports were coming out about how poorly those private prisons were run and how much more expensive they were.

All of that makes me less confident that a career corrections guy and former warden from a sh*tty prison system is going to transform himself into a defender of children. I'm even less confident because the state's governor has shown that she's absolutely in love with the idea of privatizing government functions and, even if Flanagan is an upstanding dude, the politics of the situation are likely to be that the new department will have to outsource everything to private corporations, likely the same private prison companies Brewer has been getting fat stack of campaign cash from.

Agent 86 wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:
Tenebrous wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

IMAGE(http://www.escapeplan.org/chick/D%26D/2.gif)

The whole panthlet is here. Somehow my D&D days in the 90's did not have so many women. The game must have gone down hill or it was just me being ugly .

I'm betting both. I would know..I can smell one of my own.

I love Jack Chick...his tracts are so awesome. I laugh and laugh and laugh.

It's the oh so subilte mix of paranoia, manipulation, lies, fantasy, campy goofiness, and comics that makes them intresting.

There are multiple tracts talking about how evil haloween, catholicism, islam, etc. but nothing I have seen so far about caring for the poor, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc.

OG_slinger wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

While I think that throwing away CPS is a wasteful measure which is likely to do more harm than good, are you sure that you're not jumping to conclusions without evidence on this point?

Juvenile corrections in many states is focused much more tightly on reform than the adult penal system. I have no idea about Arizona, but I do have relatives who have worked in the juvenile corrections system in other states (Wisconsin, Iowa) and at halfway houses, and the major thing I get from them is that there's an overriding concern about these kids' futures. Flanagan headed the investigation into the uninvestigated reports. His background shows involvement in a ton of community service organizations. It also says that he rose to his position from administering the academic and career technical education programs in the system, and was widely regarded as a pivotal source of positive change for the system itself. Nothing I've been able to find about him indicates that he's the "child punisher" you're describing.

Flanagan was also a warden at two Arizona prisons and assistant director of the state Department of Corrections, the later during a time that Arizona prisons had raft of problems with the sexual abuse of prisoners as well as a nasty issue of prisoner suicide rate that was 60% higher than the national average that was linked to the departments aggressive use of long stretches of solitary confinement to punish prisoners and, disturbingly, as a way to warehouse mentally ill prisoners.

And all of that happened while the governor pushed to privatize Arizona's prison system more even while reports were coming out about how poorly those private prisons were run and how much more expensive they were.

All of that makes me less confident that a career corrections guy and former warden from a sh*tty prison system is going to transform himself into a defender of children. I'm even less confident because the state's governor has shown that she's absolutely in love with the idea of privatizing government functions and, even if Flanagan is an upstanding dude, the politics of the situation are likely to be that the new department will have to outsource everything to private corporations, likely the same private prison companies Brewer has been getting fat stack of campaign cash from.

This. There is a lot of stupid sh*t going on in AZ..now it's going to hit the kids harder.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

IMAGE(http://www.escapeplan.org/chick/D%26D/2.gif)

Wait... how come I can't cast real spells yet? I reached 8th level. This is so unfair.

OG_slinger wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

While I think that throwing away CPS is a wasteful measure which is likely to do more harm than good, are you sure that you're not jumping to conclusions without evidence on this point?

Juvenile corrections in many states is focused much more tightly on reform than the adult penal system. I have no idea about Arizona, but I do have relatives who have worked in the juvenile corrections system in other states (Wisconsin, Iowa) and at halfway houses, and the major thing I get from them is that there's an overriding concern about these kids' futures. Flanagan headed the investigation into the uninvestigated reports. His background shows involvement in a ton of community service organizations. It also says that he rose to his position from administering the academic and career technical education programs in the system, and was widely regarded as a pivotal source of positive change for the system itself. Nothing I've been able to find about him indicates that he's the "child punisher" you're describing.

Flanagan was also a warden at two Arizona prisons and assistant director of the state Department of Corrections, the later during a time that Arizona prisons had raft of problems with the sexual abuse of prisoners as well as a nasty issue of prisoner suicide rate that was 60% higher than the national average that was linked to the departments aggressive use of long stretches of solitary confinement to punish prisoners and, disturbingly, as a way to warehouse mentally ill prisoners.

And all of that happened while the governor pushed to privatize Arizona's prison system more even while reports were coming out about how poorly those private prisons were run and how much more expensive they were.

All of that makes me less confident that a career corrections guy and former warden from a sh*tty prison system is going to transform himself into a defender of children. I'm even less confident because the state's governor has shown that she's absolutely in love with the idea of privatizing government functions and, even if Flanagan is an upstanding dude, the politics of the situation are likely to be that the new department will have to outsource everything to private corporations, likely the same private prison companies Brewer has been getting fat stack of campaign cash from.

Yup. I've read more about the state of Arizona's prisons and it seems that Flanagan was one of the few standouts in terms of keeping things from getting even worse. (1) Everything I'm seeing states that he was the polar opposite of his former boss, and is much better suited to getting the new organization pointed in the right direction. (2)

LouZiffer wrote:

[Yup. I've read more about the state of Arizona's prisons and it seems that Flanagan was one of the few standouts in terms of keeping things from getting even worse. (1) Everything I'm seeing states that he was the polar opposite of his former boss, and is much better suited to getting the new organization pointed in the right direction. (2)

So at best he's not going to make things worse for Arizona kids. That isn't saying much.

And then there's the little problem of how he's going to accomplish even keeping the status quo when the department--and resources--required to do so have just been abolished by the governor.

OG_slinger wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

[Yup. I've read more about the state of Arizona's prisons and it seems that Flanagan was one of the few standouts in terms of keeping things from getting even worse. (1) Everything I'm seeing states that he was the polar opposite of his former boss, and is much better suited to getting the new organization pointed in the right direction. (2)

So at best he's not going to make things worse for Arizona kids. That isn't saying much.

And then there's the little problem of how he's going to accomplish even keeping the status quo when the department--and resources--required to do so have just been abolished by the governor.

Hah! Fabrications ahoy! You live in an interesting world.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/5Lqny4u.jpg)

OG_slinger wrote:

I want to meet the engineers.

Chicago is about to ban vaping because it "normalizes smoking", not because it poses any sort of health risk.

Demosthenes wrote:
kazooka wrote:
Dr.Ghastly wrote:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/state/...

Holy sh*tballs.

Odds are good that the new agency will be nowhere near as effective. Wonder how long it'll take for them to figure it out. One year? Five years? Ten?

What was that about relying on adoption and foster care systems as a totally awesome alternative to abortion, and thus why abortion should be legislated out of existence? Don't get me wrong, I would love if instead of aborting fetuses, we could let them come to term and be sent to loving homes with parents who want them... but seeing things like this when it comes to CPS departments around the country (and then getting into, "Who has the right to make a woman do something with her body that she doesn't want to?")... nope, clearly that system is broken too, and if we're relying on it being the fall back for children who would otherwise not have existed... we should probably fix it up a bit first.

Those children need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Also, they need to learn the language.

Aetius wrote:

Chicago is about to ban vaping because it "normalizes smoking", not because it poses any sort of health risk.

"Normalizes smoking," eh? Someone's been reading the Christine Quinn playbook.

USAF officers in charge of nuclear missiles have been cheating on their proficiency tests. Drugs also seem to be involved.

Why do we still have nukes again?

Didn't an Air Force general in charge of hundreds of nukes recently get canned for going on a drunken bender on an official DoD trip to Moscow? Yup, here it is.

sometimesdee wrote:

USAF officers in charge of nuclear missiles have been cheating on their proficiency tests. Drugs also seem to be involved.

Why do we still have nukes again?

Because we might need them for aliens. So says the Great Convention.

Also... I'm confused... based on stories from my father back before he split and a few buddies who went into the Army and Navy and such... isn't... cheating on tests almost a given on a lot of military testing when it comes to cushy jobs?

OG_slinger wrote:

Didn't an Air Force general in charge of hundreds of nukes recently get canned for going on a drunken bender on an official DoD trip to Moscow? Yup, here it is.

Oh, yeah, the guy who got in trouble for gambling! Oh, wait - wrong branch.

Demosthenes wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:

USAF officers in charge of nuclear missiles have been cheating on their proficiency tests. Drugs also seem to be involved.

Why do we still have nukes again?

Because we might need them for aliens. So says the Great Convention.

Also... I'm confused... based on stories from my father back before he split and a few buddies who went into the Army and Navy and such... isn't... cheating on tests almost a given on a lot of military testing when it comes to cushy jobs?

It's only a given until they get caught...

Hopefully Fedaykin or Eleima will be along soon to laugh at my Dune reference.

It's only a given until they get caught...

I suppose. As long as they weren't running around randomly pushing buttons, I suspect we'll be ok though. I mean, they won't... they're probably toast, but everyone else on the planet, ignoring any other life issues... probably ok?

Demosthenes wrote:

Hopefully Fedaykin or Eleima will be along soon to laugh at my Dune reference.

You should have said that we need the nukes for the thinking machines instead of aliens.