NCAA Football 2013-2014 discussion

Abu5217 wrote:

The Winston allegation situation in Tally is getting pretty bad.

Ugly as hell, yes. That Angulo should be fired, and possibly prosecuted, but neither one is very common with bad cops, sadly.

The facts of the matter are more damning for the cops than FSU or Winston, for now, but the family's statements, the quickness with which the girl caked the police, and her willingness to get a rape kit suggest that she and her family are in earnest.

sh*tty situation all the way around.

Agreed, but now Winston has been definitively tied to rape, whether he did it or not. If he did, then too damned bad. But if he didn't, and the case does not proceed due to lack of evidence, then this will follow him around for life.

Your Week Eleventeen* schedule:

Top 25 games
No. 12 Texas A&M at No. 22 LSU, 3:30 p.m. (CBS)
No. 19 Wisconsin at No. 25 Minnesota, 3:30 p.m. (ESPN)
No. 17 Arizona State at No. 14 UCLA, 7 p.m. (Fox)
No. 8 Missouri at No. 24 Ole Miss, 7:45 p.m. (ESPN)
No. 4 Baylor at No. 10 Oklahoma State, 8 (ABC)

BCS watch
Chattanooga at No. 1 Alabama, 2 (no TV)
Idaho at No. 2 Florida State, 3:30 p.m. (ESPNU)
Indiana at No. 3 Ohio State, 3:30 p.m. (ABC or ESPN2)
No. 5 Oregon at Arizona, 3:30 p.m. (ABC or ESPN2)

Decent-enough Thursday night game
Rutgers at No. 18 UCF, 7:30 p.m. (ESPN)
(The NFL is countering with NO at ATL - ick)

Game I still can't believe is an ACC tilt
Pittsburgh at Syracuse, 12:30 (no TV)

Highest scoring game of the week
ODU at UNC, noon (no TV)
... This is a prime I-AA upset chance; ODU scores a ton of points, and UNC can't tackle

Conclusion: A couple of pretty sharp games (A&M-LSU and Baylor-OSU), but not much depth to the week. The BCS matchups are awful. T

That said, I'll pull hard for Indiana (who's only just bad this year and not their traditional terrible) just so fans of THE Ohio State University (like there's another?!) will shut the hell up about the BCS title game. Everyone wants to see Alabama-FSU. Can't we just go ahead and schedule it so folks can book their flights and rooms?

* I've lost track. Seems like the season has been going on forever.

By the way, just how is it that ESPN was able to view a DNA report from an ongoing investigation? I would guess that these things are not readily available to the press.

Not necessarily. Based on his attorney's statements and the fact that you have to assume that FSU/Jimbo Fisher knew there was sex involved, this may not have any bearing on the defense. It's looking more and more like a he said she said scenario, which is awful, as we will probably never know exactly what happened. I still stand by my statement that if he were to be charged and convicted, he needs to be gone from FSU for good. However, I am feeling more and more that something stinks here.

I have heard some conjecture that the two witness affidavits may be key... apparently one is another football player, but the second is rumored to be the alleged victim's roommate, which may speak to why the defense is so confident.

Regardless, however this plays out, there is no argument that it was not handled properly by the TPD. Perhaps they can explain why it worked out the way it did, but I can't imagine any way they can spin their inaction in the case.

EDIT: Whether or not he is guilty, I don't see how Winston is not at least charged with something at this point, which, under school rules, would essentially end his season. (FSU rules state that any athlete charged with a felony is suspended until the case is resolved.) The whole thing has essentially ruined the best FSU season in more than a decade, regardless of how it turns out. Obviously, if he raped her, that's way more important than football, but if he is exonerated, there will still be the stain of the accusation. Bad situation all around.

Abu5217 wrote:

By the way, just how is it that ESPN was able to view a DNA report from an ongoing investigation? I would guess that these things are not readily available to the press.

Yeah that one made me raise my eyebrow.

There's a bit of a kerfuffle in Louisville this week because basketball player Kevin Ware got a speeding ticket and then missed his court date to contest/pay it. Wouldn't have been a big deal if he'd showed up, but court records being public and his name on the docket, blew up into a bit of a thing (fanned by rivals at UK of course :p).

But this from an ongoing investigation seems odd.

I rarely care about any other game, even in the Pac-12, but I'll be rooting for the sun devils. Provided Oregon wins out, an ASU win should basically mean neither stanfurd nor fUCLA will play in the Pac-12 title game, and that will put a little silver lining on this disaster of a season.

Thankfully weather in the bay area is supposed to be good this weekend and its a 1:00 game at stanfurd, but here we go:

Most ridiculous statistical betting anomaly in FBS history, oh and Carlbear95 is attending too
Cal (currently 31.5 point underdogs) @ Leland stanfurd junior college (averaging only 30.5 PPG), 1:00 pm (Fox Sports One) in the 116th playing of The Big Game.

Finally after this weekend I have my saturdays free again and the national nightmare that was Cal football is over... ON TO 2014 THREAD! Can I start it at around 5:00 on Saturday?

Carlbear95 wrote:

Finally after this weekend I have my saturdays free again and the national nightmare that was Cal football is over... ON TO 2014 THREAD! Can I start it at around 5:00 on Saturday?

Basketball season? We have a thread.

Well, at least we can dispense with people writing this off because of the height/weight discrepancy. DNA match.

I don't see how they avoid charging him now. There's no witness statement in the world that would be strong enough for this to avoid at least a grand jury hearing, in my completely amateur opinion.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Well, at least we can dispense with people writing this off because of the height/weight discrepancy. DNA match.

I don't see how they avoid charging him now. There's no witness statement in the world that would be strong enough for this to avoid at least a grand jury hearing, in my completely amateur opinion.

I tend to agree. However, this statement from the SA gives me much concern:

Meggs told ESPN.com on Wednesday that he probably will not take the case before a grand jury, saying his office would ultimately decide whether it believes it has sufficient evidence to charge Winston with a crime.

The SA (Meggs) has a history of going after FSU players, including one who he charged with second degree sexual assault. That kid was found not guilty after the jury deliberated for all of 30 minutes.

Abu5217 wrote:

The whole thing has essentially ruined the best FSU season in more than a decade, regardless of how it turns out. Obviously, if he raped her, that's way more important than football, but if he is exonerated, there will still be the stain of the accusation. Bad situation all around.

Well summed up. It really sucks, and it's hard to know who to feel bad for...we may never really know. I will say that I haven't heard anything yet that would seem to discredit the accusation. Imho, false allegations of rape are far less common than actual rape*, and far less common than unreported rape - but statistics don't matter here, only what happened between these two individuals.

*I only include this because I'm sick of, every time a high profile person is accused of rape, their fans saying "Well, this was consensual but she got mad after, or this was consensual and then at some point it entered a grey area..." BS. I mean, yeah, those things happen, but very rarely. But since they happen, they are the immediate refuge of every fanbase. These can't all be lies, or misunderstandings. But again, in each individual case, maybe this is the exception...but in the aggregate, that's unlikely.

From a "perceived character" standpoint, I'm more likely to think Winston was innocent than, say, Kobe Bryant, fwiw. But like I said, everything I've heard so far makes this girl seem earnest in the accusation, and the police are obviously complicit in covering up whatever did happen. Frankly, ironically, the behavior of the police and the eleven-month head start given to the defense prejudices my view in this case, even though Winston should get just as much benefit of innocent until proven guilty as anyone else.

Abu5217 wrote:
Fedaykin98 wrote:

Well, at least we can dispense with people writing this off because of the height/weight discrepancy. DNA match.

I don't see how they avoid charging him now. There's no witness statement in the world that would be strong enough for this to avoid at least a grand jury hearing, in my completely amateur opinion.

I tend to agree. However, this statement from the SA gives me much concern:

Meggs told ESPN.com on Wednesday that he probably will not take the case before a grand jury, saying his office would ultimately decide whether it believes it has sufficient evidence to charge Winston with a crime.

The SA (Meggs) has a history of going after FSU players, including one who he charged with second degree sexual assault. That kid was found not guilty after the jury deliberated for all of 30 minutes.

I thought Meigs did both undergrad and grad school at FSU?

EDIT: Yes, he did. He's also a Marine.

The whole thing has essentially ruined the best FSU season in more than a decade, regardless of how it turns out. Obviously, if he raped her, that's way more important than football, but if he is exonerated, there will still be the stain of the accusation. Bad situation all around.

Bolded for truth.

Here's the problem, though. One can be acquitted in court due to the lack of evidence. I'm sure a lot of people will jump to the conclusion that means the defendant is innocent. Those aren't the same thing. It could be the stain of the accusation is appropriate.

I'm not saying Winston is guilty at all. I'm just worried that sexual abuse and rape are sometimes so hard to prove in court, because there are often only two witnesses, a defendant and a victim.

Abu, I feel like your attitude about this is a very healthy mix of concern for the health and rights of the victim and honest dismay that someone representing your team could be responsible. Tough situation to be in.

As you folks know, there was a woman who committed suicide after an alleged sexual assault by a member of the ND football team. The reaction by the administration and even police to the whole set of incidents (read: lack of obvious compassion to the victims family) is a huge embarrassment. In fact, our president (a priest) refuses to talk about it or meet with the family. He's clearly been swayed by the General Counsel's office (which must be heartless, but they're lawyers, amiright?). But, it's a real shame. Makes me sick to think about. So, I know it's a painful thing to see as a fan. You want your school to do right, you want this not to have happened, you hope it didn't, ultimately.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Well summed up. It really sucks, and it's hard to know who to feel bad for...we may never really know. I will say that I haven't heard anything yet that would seem to discredit the accusation. Imho, false allegations of rape are far less common than actual rape*, and far less common than unreported rape - but statistics don't matter here, only what happened between these two individuals.

Well, I have heard things, but not through any sort of official channels, so I won't share them at this point. Suffice it to say that there may very well be a grey area here.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

I thought Meigs did both undergrad and grad school at FSU?

EDIT: Yes, he did. He's also a Marine.

Yes, he went to FSU, that does not automatically mean that he is going to side with the school/Winston. He didn't go to an SEC school...

firesloth wrote:
The whole thing has essentially ruined the best FSU season in more than a decade, regardless of how it turns out. Obviously, if he raped her, that's way more important than football, but if he is exonerated, there will still be the stain of the accusation. Bad situation all around.

Bolded for truth.

Here's the problem, though. One can be acquitted in court due to the lack of evidence. I'm sure a lot of people will jump to the conclusion that means the defendant is innocent. Those aren't the same thing. It could be the stain of the accusation is appropriate.

I'm not saying Winston is guilty at all. I'm just worried that sexual abuse and rape are sometimes so hard to prove in court, because there are often only two witnesses, a defendant and a victim.

Which makes me very curious as to the content of the affidavits provided by the defense.

Abu, I feel like your attitude about this is a very healthy mix of concern for the health and rights of the victim and honest dismay that someone representing your team could be responsible. Tough situation to be in.

Thanks for that. It is VERY hard. I went to FSU during the "glory days" and, while it was awesome football on the field, Bowden took a lot of hits (some deserved) for his methods of discipline. It was hard to be proud of the team for their on-the-field accomplishments when there were a lot of head-smackingly stupid events going on off-field (Free Shoes University anyone). This situation, however, is 10000% worse due to the nature of the alleged crime.

EDIT: Now we know the defense's strategy. Not surprising.

Well, Abu, you did say that the SA has a history of prosecuting FSU players - I'm just saying that

1) That's his job.

And

2) Since he did both undergrad and grad there, are you really going to say he's biased against FSU players? I mean, that's what you implied. I find that hard to imagine.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Well, Abu, you did say that the SA has a history of prosecuting FSU players - I'm just saying that

1) That's his job.

And

2) Since he did both undergrad and grad there, are you really going to say he's biased against FSU players? I mean, that's what you implied. I find that hard to imagine.

I hear you, and it may be an unfair characterization. However, I used to play soccer. My dad was a ref. I hated when he reffed my games, because he went so far over the line of fairness to eliminate any doubt of favoritism that he often called games in the other team's favor.

I am not saying that's what is happening here, but there have been several cases through the years where Meigs insisted on prosecuting weak cases against FSU players, cases that most likely would have not gone as far had they been Joe FSU student. I will look for support on this, but the linked story is the most egregious of them. Again, one has to wonder just how ESPN came to be in possession of the DNA report when said DNA was only provided last week.

Abu5217 wrote:
Fedaykin98 wrote:

Well, Abu, you did say that the SA has a history of prosecuting FSU players - I'm just saying that

1) That's his job.

And

2) Since he did both undergrad and grad there, are you really going to say he's biased against FSU players? I mean, that's what you implied. I find that hard to imagine.

I hear you, and it may be an unfair characterization. However, I used to play soccer. My dad was a ref. I hated when he reffed my games, because he went so far over the line of fairness to eliminate any doubt of favoritism that he often called games in the other team's favor.

I am not saying that's what is happening here, but there have been several cases through the years where Meigs insisted on prosecuting weak cases against FSU players, cases that most likely would have not gone as far had they been Joe FSU student. I will look for support on this, but the linked story is the most egregious of them. Again, one has to wonder just how ESPN came to be in possession of the DNA report when said DNA was only provided last week.

It's weird when ESPN actually does journalism.

Enix wrote:

Your Week Eleventeen* schedule:

Top 25 games
No. 12 Texas A&M at No. 22 LSU, 3:30 p.m. (CBS)
No. 19 Wisconsin at No. 25 Minnesota, 3:30 p.m. (ESPN)
No. 17 Arizona State at No. 14 UCLA, 7 p.m. (Fox)
No. 8 Missouri at No. 24 Ole Miss, 7:45 p.m. (ESPN)
No. 4 Baylor at No. 10 Oklahoma State, 8 (ABC)

BCS watch
Chattanooga at No. 1 Alabama, 2 (no TV)
Idaho at No. 2 Florida State, 3:30 p.m. (ESPNU)
Indiana at No. 3 Ohio State, 3:30 p.m. (ABC or ESPN2)
No. 5 Oregon at Arizona, 3:30 p.m. (ABC or ESPN2)

Decent-enough Thursday night game
Rutgers at No. 18 UCF, 7:30 p.m. (ESPN)
(The NFL is countering with NO at ATL - ick)

Game I still can't believe is an ACC tilt
Pittsburgh at Syracuse, 12:30 (no TV)

Highest scoring game of the week
ODU at UNC, noon (no TV)
... This is a prime I-AA upset chance; ODU scores a ton of points, and UNC can't tackle

Conclusion: A couple of pretty sharp games (A&M-LSU and Baylor-OSU), but not much depth to the week. The BCS matchups are awful. T

That said, I'll pull hard for Indiana (who's only just bad this year and not their traditional terrible) just so fans of THE Ohio State University (like there's another?!) will shut the hell up about the BCS title game. Everyone wants to see Alabama-FSU. Can't we just go ahead and schedule it so folks can book their flights and rooms?

* I've lost track. Seems like the season has been going on forever.

You forgot one:
Big XII battle for the basement
Kansas @ Iowa State 5P/7C (Fox Sports 1)
It should be a good one. Can Kansas win 2 games in a row, or will ISU get its first conference win of the season? I'll be watching, will you?

Jucofett wrote:

You forgot one:
Big XII battle for the basement
Kansas @ Iowa State 5P/7C (Fox Sports 1)
It should be a good one. Can Kansas win 2 games in a row, or will ISU get its first conference win of the season? I'll be watching, will you?

Yes

How is ISU's run defense? It looks like Kansas will close out the year with Cozart running a lot of option and a heavy does of James Sims.

Fresno State faces off against New Mexico.

It bears mentioning because the last time Fresno was this close to an undefeated season, it was 1989, and the 10-0, #23 ranked Bulldogs faced off with the 1-10 New Mexico Lobos, and the Lobos won 45-22.

It's one of the saddest games in Fresno State history. Fresno then destroyed them the next two seasons, 42-7 and 94-17. Yep, 94-17. I was 10 years old and at that game.

After the 94-17 game, Lobo coach Mike Sheppard proclaimed: "I can tell you that forever New Mexico will have a blood rivalry with Fresno."

Now the Lobos are trying to spoil things for Fresno again. History better not repeat!

Jayhawker wrote:
Jucofett wrote:

You forgot one:
Big XII battle for the basement
Kansas @ Iowa State 5P/7C (Fox Sports 1)
It should be a good one. Can Kansas win 2 games in a row, or will ISU get its first conference win of the season? I'll be watching, will you?

Yes

How is ISU's run defense? It looks like Kansas will close out the year with Cozart running a lot of option and a heavy does of James Sims.

They do a good job of getting to the runner, they just don't hold on to them. OU racked up 405 on the ground last week.

Spoiler:

Thank goodness for basketball season.

Jucofett wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
Jucofett wrote:

You forgot one:
Big XII battle for the basement
Kansas @ Iowa State 5P/7C (Fox Sports 1)
It should be a good one. Can Kansas win 2 games in a row, or will ISU get its first conference win of the season? I'll be watching, will you?

Yes

How is ISU's run defense? It looks like Kansas will close out the year with Cozart running a lot of option and a heavy does of James Sims.

They do a good job of getting to the runner, they just don't hold on to them. OU racked up 405 on the ground last week.

Spoiler:

Thank goodness for basketball season.

So say we all!

Hey all... just wanted to say this:

The whole Winston thing has gotten me far more upset than some football thing should for a guy who is 43. I feel that some of my recent posts, especially those where I questioned the integrity of the SAO, were out of bounds. I let emotions get the best of me, and I apologize.

Looks like UCF has beat Rutgers. Now only the slimmest chance for Louisville. Need UCF to lose to USF (:lol:) and SMU (possible). Ugh.

Abu5217 wrote:

Hey all... just wanted to say this:

The whole Winston thing has gotten me far more upset than some football thing should for a guy who is 43. I feel that some of my recent posts, especially those where I questioned the integrity of the SAO, were out of bounds. I let emotions get the best of me, and I apologize.

It happens. Look at some of my posts when people were hating on Johnny Football.

Fedaykin98 wrote:
Abu5217 wrote:

Hey all... just wanted to say this:

The whole Winston thing has gotten me far more upset than some football thing should for a guy who is 43. I feel that some of my recent posts, especially those where I questioned the integrity of the SAO, were out of bounds. I let emotions get the best of me, and I apologize.

It happens. Look at some of my posts when people were hating on Johnny Football. :oops:

People stopped hating on him?

This made laugh a lot.

IMAGE(http://cdn2.sbnation.com/assets/3609577/BielemaBaby.gif)

Enix wrote:

Rutgers at No. 18 UCF, 7:30 p.m. (ESPN)
(The NFL is countering with NO at ATL - ick)

NO at ATL was better.

I am a big bundle of miserable nerves watching this game. No score, halfway through the first quarter.