Walking Dead (No Comics! No Spoilers Beyond What's Aired)!

I'd smugly ask if there was anyone excited by the Governor's return...but I know people who are. He just seems very silly and cartoonish in the context of the show, especially when he basically became the Terminator in that one episode. The rest of the ep was pretty effective (though, again, maybe they could stand to have the red shirts provide back story and episode or two before they get got). Obviously, they were going to bring him back...but...ugh.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'd smugly ask if there was anyone excited by the Governor's return...but I know people who are. He just seems very silly and cartoonish in the context of the show, especially when he basically became the Terminator in that one episode. The rest of the ep was pretty effective (though, again, maybe they could stand to have the red shirts provide back story and episode or two before they get got). Obviously, they were going to bring him back...but...ugh.

I'd be happier if they brought him back in a different way. The idea that a giant pack was the night before about 50 feet from where he's just casually standing is a bit frustrating.

Overall I did enjoy the episode. Herschel was excellent.

Well, I've always thought the Gov had something to do with the hordes bunching up at the fences, and the way the episode ended it seems my assumptions may be right. I was pretty sure he was going to try and get his revenge at some point. Hopefully it won't drag on to long.

Gaald wrote:

It's a bit suspicious for one, and I also wonder if maybe it has to do with the water?

Well since Gaald opened the door to speculation...

Spoiler:

Every single episode this season has included their open water containers or water in some way. The first sick kid dunked his head in the open container near the shower before he died (and I think he ate bacon that morning when Darryl returned). People scooping bare hands in to the containers. Carol trying to clean the mud out of the hose that fetches water right next to where the zombies swarm the fence (and are killed through), their body fluids probably running into that stream or the ground. Carol kicking over the water container in anger. The morning after Rick & Carl held off the walkers when Michonne was helping clear the bodies, Rick drenched himself in an open water container, letting the tainted water run back into the clean supply. So, maybe the infection that can kill from a bite or scratch has found another vector.

Gaald wrote:

Well, I've always thought the Gov had something to do with the hordes bunching up at the fences, and the way the episode ended it seems my assumptions may be right. I was pretty sure he was going to try and get his revenge at some point. Hopefully it won't drag on to long.

I wouldn't be too surprised if the Governor was hanging out within a fairly small distance of the prison for the whole time. He could have lured walkers to the fence, but he might not have ever needed to - they tend to cluster anyway. My guess is that we see him because for the first time, assault rifles were used at the prison - he could assume that things went to hell during the night.

They do cluster, but in an earlier episode this year they did show that near the big clusters someone may have been louring them near the fence with rats. Now that may have just been the strange little girl but maybe that was a red herring. I think the Gov has been up to something. I doubt he would just sit and wait, and I still haven't forgotten about that huge herd we saw a couple episodes back.

Well since Gaald opened the door to speculation...

Speculation is always welcome and no spoilers needed. Guessing what may happen is fun. As long as you don't include information that you read somewhere in some interview or something. Speculating based on what we have seen in the episodes is totally cool.

Gaald wrote:

They do cluster, but in an earlier episode this year they did show that near the big clusters someone may have been louring them near the fence with rats. Now that may have just been the strange little girl but maybe that was a red herring. I think the Gov has been up to something. I doubt he would just sit and wait, and I still haven't forgotten about that huge herd we saw a couple episodes back.

Well since Gaald opened the door to speculation...

Speculation is always welcome and no spoilers needed. Guessing what may happen is fun. As long as you don't include information that you read somewhere in some interview or something. Speculating based on what we have seen in the episodes is totally cool.

Agreed. I like that a separate thread exists for the comic discussion of the show.

I don't know about you guys, but I thought that was a pretty great episode. Made me care about the Governor, and now I have no idea what he might be doing over at the prison. Meeting up with one of his old soldiers can not be a good thing though.

Really great season so far.

Many people consider saying what hasn't happen in the comics as it relates to the show a spoiler.

That was an interesting episode, wonder how far they will go with it?

Spoiler:

So is this the set up for the walking dead spin off?

I doubt anyone in this episode is going to be alive at the end of this season.

Speculation is fun: he realizes he's a monster and will end up killing this new family, like the one before and the one before that. What we mistook as a threat coming back for more, is the Governor asking Rick to take in the family.

Baron Of Hell wrote:

I doubt anyone in this episode is going to be alive at the end of this season.

Agreed, we've seen their story only to empathize.

Speculation #2: Gov's old team turns against him, he's now at the prison to ask Rick for help.

Given what he is known by the group to have done to at least a few people, the idea that there could be any incentive strong enough for them to accept him doesn't make sense to me.

Don't a mere 30 days separate the last season and this one? If so, the Governor's ability to grow a beard is downright Swansonian.

Rahmen wrote:

Given what he is known by the group to have done to at least a few people, the idea that there could be any incentive strong enough for them to accept him doesn't make sense to me.

I agree, but until I watched this past episode I didn't think there was any way I could have sympathized with the Gov's character, and low and behold now I do. I am open to all possibilities at this point, because I have no idea what the heck will happen.

Rahmen wrote:

Given what he is known by the group to have done to at least a few people, the idea that there could be any incentive strong enough for them to accept him doesn't make sense to me.

Gaald wrote:
Rahmen wrote:

Given what he is known by the group to have done to at least a few people, the idea that there could be any incentive strong enough for them to accept him doesn't make sense to me.

I agree, but until I watched this past episode I didn't think there was any way I could have sympathized with the Gov's character, and low and behold now I do. I am open to all possibilities at this point, because I have no idea what the heck will happen.

Pretty much my thoughts. While I would be among the first to tell the Gov to bugger off, I can easily see Rick torn between the possibility of a trap and helping out the innocent. I imagine everyone telling him to forget about the Governor, and Herschel playing as his conscience.

EDIT TO ADD:

Or the Governor is just stalking the prison to kidnap someone, bartering their safety for Rick's help.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Don't a mere 30 days separate the last season and this one? If so, the Governor's ability to grow a beard is downright Swansonian.

At least 6 months gone by. Hmmm at least I think it is 6 months.

Baron Of Hell wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

Don't a mere 30 days separate the last season and this one? If so, the Governor's ability to grow a beard is downright Swansonian.

At least 6 months gone by. Hmmm at least I think it is 6 months.

Oh, ok then. I got the idea from the title of the season's 1st ep it was only a month. Too bad, I liked the idea of the Guv as a hirsute freak.

Watched it with my wife tonight. When the girl was scooped up by The Gov my wife blurts out "Oh my God... they ripped off Newt!". And in the pit when they do the "cross your heart" schtick she did a perfectly timed "They mostly come at night, mostly".

LockAndLoad wrote:

Watched it with my wife tonight. When the girl was scooped up by The Gov my wife blurts out "Oh my God... they ripped off Newt!". And in the pit when they do the "cross your heart" schtick she did a perfectly timed "They mostly come at night, mostly". :)

And they did it so well!

Gaald wrote:
Rahmen wrote:

Given what he is known by the group to have done to at least a few people, the idea that there could be any incentive strong enough for them to accept him doesn't make sense to me.

I agree, but until I watched this past episode I didn't think there was any way I could have sympathized with the Gov's character, and low and behold now I do. I am open to all possibilities at this point, because I have no idea what the heck will happen.

If Rick kicked Carol out, there's no way he'll let the Governor in. He might let the family in, but not him.

CARTOONISH VILLAIN UNABLE TO GIVE UP CARTOONISH VILLAINY! Man, didn't see that coming.

Or, as a wit elsewhere put it: "I'm sure glad we spent two episodes on the Governor figuring out that taking the prison was a good idea."

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

CARTOONISH VILLAIN UNABLE TO GIVE UP CARTOONISH VILLAINY! Man, didn't see that coming.

Or, as a wit elsewhere put it: "I'm sure glad we spent two episodes on the Governor figuring out that taking the prison was a good idea."

If that's all that people are getting out of those two episodes, then to hell with them.

It wasn't a great side story. I thought it started pretty good and had a lot of potential, but the second episode was much weaker. They were obviously trying to humanize his character and show us the motivation for why he is the way he is and does the things he does.

They just didn't do a very good job of showing how much time had passed during those two episodes, nor when it passed. Who knows how long he was on the road for, or how much time he spent in the apartment, or how much time had passed in camp. It all felt rushed, as if it happened in the span of a couple of weeks or something. But if you remember back to the start of the season we know this must have took place in the half year (?) between when the season started to when we left the group in the prison. They probably could have used one more episode or at least half an episode more to further develop each phase in his journey, and they certainly needed to make the passage of time clearer for the audience.

So in the end, the whole turn from bad guy to "good guy", back to bad guy seems quick and not very satisfying. Hence the cartoonish villain comments I guess. At least they tried to give him some depth. They could have done what so many other shows do and just had him show up to screw with everything. Why? Because he's the bad guy! I'm still interested to see how it all plays out, because something tells me it's not going to be as clear cut as I figure it might be.

I think they said he was on the road for 6 months, didnt it?
Anyways, It's interesting when he put the family in the car and tried to leave, was it because he sensed that he was falling back into his old self and wanted to leave before potentially hurting someone. When met with the mud pit-barricade of zombies and returning to the camp he acted upon his urges. Kind of Dexterish, maybe? A psycopath that knows he has a problem. Having a new purpose (family) in life made him question staying where it was dangerous for him and others.

groan wrote:

I think they said he was on the road for 6 months, didnt it?
Anyways, It's interesting when he put the family in the car and tried to leave, was it because he sensed that he was falling back into his old self and wanted to leave before potentially hurting someone. When met with the mud pit-barricade of zombies and returning to the camp he acted upon his urges. Kind of Dexterish, maybe? A psycopath that knows he has a problem. Having a new purpose (family) in life made him question staying where it was dangerous for him and others.

I think that was part of it, yeah. I also think the tension between the two brothers was also going to make that place volatile. Poor Enver Gjokaj. That guy can't catch a break. Such a good actor. Way under utilized again.

Gaald wrote:

If that's all that people are getting out of those two episodes, then to hell with them.

Well, what else were they supposed to get? Those two episodes did nothing but put things back where they were last season, except now he has a living family and a tank. No new insights were gleaned, and any struggling against his past or whatnot was pretty half-hearted and lame. I hardly think poor establishment of time passing was the issue, the issue is it felt very rote, and when he finally turned it simultaneously was very abrupt, and dully inevitable. He's not a strong enough character to pull off the "People Can't Change" thing in a compelling way. They didn't even give him a new motivation for seeking revenge.

I call him cartoonish because he is. He's just a psychotic who does evil sh*t to raise the stakes while mumbling about them being hard things done in the name of survival even though they're often silly and irrational (and then they went and made him a relentless, unkillable Terminator for an ep or two before he just shot everyone). His henchmen go along with it because while they never resort to having characters say "He's just such a charismatic presence, I'm willing to do whatever he says," he doesn't have much of that charismatic presence (I actually found it a bit refreshing that for a while he was Just This Dude in the camp) so they just show people following him, which is somehow even more clumsy. Even the average Batman villain henchman is wrapped up in enough of a cult of personality to wear a clown mask or a two-toned shirt, or, hell, they get paid.

Why does Kirk Acevedo accept the Guv showing up and murdering a few of his buddies, one of whom may or may not be his actual brother? Eh, you know, they had that disagreement once, and the Guv is super compelling the way he ominously stands in front of things.

In summation, I see all my fears of what the Guv's return could portend coming to pass.

groan wrote:

Anyways, It's interesting when he put the family in the car and tried to leave, was it because he sensed that he was falling back into his old self and wanted to leave before potentially hurting someone.

Yes, I believe that was the implication. Of course, when he got back, he jumped straight to 11.

And I think you missed the point of the two episodes. Not that I think they did a good job of what they were trying to accomplish. But I saw way more to the story than what you got out of it.

If I can be frank, Glaad, because I value your additions but also struggle with calling things as I see, instead of rather smugly saying I missed the point, perhaps you could share what point you saw. Honestly, I haven't shared the point I saw, as it relies on outside info and spoilers.

This is what I got out of it.

First off the reason the Governor character is in the story is to give us the other side of the coin to Rick. To show us what would Rick would become if he had made different choices when it came to the group and survival.

The last two episodes were meant to show us the reasoning behind the Governors choices, and make him less of a cartoony villain. In the first episode we got a sense that he was ashamed of what he became and the things he did. He had all but given up on life. The only thing keeping him going was probably the idea that he might come back as a walker if he failed to end his life correctly. Meeting the family with the young daughter changes everything though. He gets dragged into their world even though he resists, and once again he finds himself responsible for other peoples lives, especially the young daughter who probably reminds him of his own daughter.

Still things might have probably turned out OK if it was only them but then they run into his old second in command and his new group. The Gov freaks out when his old 2nd suggests maybe he help with the leadership and kills him. He doesn't want that, and he knows to much. Than the next two most powerful people in the group start fighting over how they should run the group and he can see that everything is about to fall apart. Because in his mind, without a strong leader at the helm it's inevitable. So he tries to run with his new family but they don't get very far before they realize that's probably even more dangerous! The only thing left for him to do is take over, and he does it the only way he knows how.

Was this all done perfectly? No. But at least we got to see another side of him, and some of the thought process behind his decisions. Had he just showed up to the prison and started wreaking havoc on the place we would all just chalk it up to crazy. But now we know why he would even dare go back. He has a family to protect and he obviously thinks the prison is their best chance for survival. I'm still not totally convinced he is going to try and take the place by force. It obviously did not work the last time, and he has to expect that Rick's group has had time to dig in and bolster their defenses.

I am hoping things don't play out exactly the way I think they might.