On this thing called "rape culture"

sometimesdee wrote:
clover wrote:

Women can do a certain amount of social engineering to "reduce the chance that something will happen". Be choosy about friends, where you hang out, what streets you step in after dark.

I was groped by a couple of kids in broad daylight. And just because I know "The List" automatically pops into our heads, I was waiting to cross the street with about 20-30 other people on Flatbush Ave (one of the main thoroughfares in Brooklyn), and my 220-pound self was walking home from the gym in a baggy grey sweatsuit.

For reals. Most of the time I was walking around back in South Florida was in chef's whites. Not even close to being a solicitous look. Not that that stopped people from hollering from their cars, the other side of the street, whatever. Every damned day. Being from the passive-aggressive west coast, it was a stunning piece of culture shock.

clover wrote:

Well, I quoted the entirety of that earlier post because I didn't mean the underhanding phenomenon specifically... It's not so much any one thing that happens, but the aggregate of dudes thinking you owe them a smile, leaning into you on a crowded bus... expecting your mere presence in a crosswalk, at a bar, walking, or wherever means you are looking for a man, and call you a Female Doggo (or worse) if you respond otherwise... assuming that the fact you went to a club means you are a willing "target", whether or not you express interest in them...

That's very much true. One instance in particular that comes to mind was a couple of years ago. I was about 7 or 8 months pregnant with our first and sitting at a bench in front of a very popular restaurant, while hubby waited in line in a stuffy corridor for us to be seated. Along comes this man, in his 40s or 50s (so nearly twice my age, I was 27), and sits on the bench, not close up, but leaning back with his arms spread out on top of it (so his personal space expanded and kinda encroaching on mine). I was slightly uncomfortable (despite being French, I have a very American perception of my personal space and its boundaries), but that was nothing until he started clearly flirting with me (and I'm usually pretty clueless about this, so it was pretty heavy-handed). He calls me "madmoiselle" (miss) at one point and to sort of send an admittedly unsubtle message, I correct him and say "it's madame" (mrs). He then leaves in a huff calling me "madame la duchesse, madame la comtesse!", implying that I was being haughty. Simply because I wasn't responding to his advances.
I guess I'm supposed to feel flattered that people are still flirting with me even though I'm married and pregnant (happened again a couple of weeks ago), but that's not the case. It's uncomfortable and unwanted. Men always feel that we should be happy and grateful that they're paying attention to us, but here's the dirty little secret. Sometimes, we're really, really not.

clover wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:
clover wrote:

Women can do a certain amount of social engineering to "reduce the chance that something will happen". Be choosy about friends, where you hang out, what streets you step in after dark.

I was groped by a couple of kids in broad daylight. And just because I know "The List" automatically pops into our heads, I was waiting to cross the street with about 20-30 other people on Flatbush Ave (one of the main thoroughfares in Brooklyn), and my 220-pound self was walking home from the gym in a baggy grey sweatsuit.

For reals. Most of the time I was walking around back in South Florida was in chef's whites. Not even close to being a solicitous look. Not that that stopped people from hollering from their cars, the other side of the street, whatever. Every damned day. Being from the passive-aggressive west coast, it was a stunning piece of culture shock.

Man, I just don't get that. I can't even talk to women...and then those assholes are just making it worse for people like me. Granted, when I have seen behavior such as that I (usually..not always to be truthful) call them out on it. I've never seen the assaults, or I'd be in jail for assault myself. I guess as someone above said I tend to be selective in the areas and people I hang out with, but..jfc people. Grow up and realize you aren't the greatest thing ever and women aren't yours to do with as you choose.

Trashie wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:

A disappointing letter to the editor at the student paper here in town: "'Rape culture' does not exist".

A nice response from PAVE.

PAVE response wrote:

We noticed a misinterpretation of what “rape culture” actually is. Rape culture is the way society comes to understand rape as unavoidable. This leads people to believe that rape and sexual assault are unstoppable phenomena, and often even acceptable. Directly in contrast to this is the idea that rape happens because people are inherently evil. Rape culture is not a result of bad people, but is a societal construct that perpetuates harmful victim blaming attitudes.

This. So much this. That whole post is awesome.

sometimesdee wrote:
clover wrote:

Women can do a certain amount of social engineering to "reduce the chance that something will happen". Be choosy about friends, where you hang out, what streets you step in after dark.

I was groped by a couple of kids in broad daylight. And just because I know "The List" automatically pops into our heads, I was waiting to cross the street with about 20-30 other people on Flatbush Ave (one of the main thoroughfares in Brooklyn), and my 220-pound self was walking home from the gym in a baggy grey sweatsuit.

Living and working in Brooklyn for the past 12 years, I can attest that certain parts are gully, and that, unfortunately, this kind of sh*t doesn't surprise me too much.

Hypatian wrote:
Trashie wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:

A disappointing letter to the editor at the student paper here in town: "'Rape culture' does not exist".

A nice response from PAVE.

PAVE response wrote:

We noticed a misinterpretation of what “rape culture” actually is. Rape culture is the way society comes to understand rape as unavoidable. This leads people to believe that rape and sexual assault are unstoppable phenomena, and often even acceptable. Directly in contrast to this is the idea that rape happens because people are inherently evil. Rape culture is not a result of bad people, but is a societal construct that perpetuates harmful victim blaming attitudes.

This. So much this. That whole post is awesome.

I'm starting to notice that almost 100% of the arguments against rape culture existing at all follow a similar vein with the idea of feminism - someone starts with an extremely incorrect statement of what it is (either intentionally setting up the straw man or not, I can never be certain) and then goes to town on that inflated caricature. I find it unsurprising that these two concepts share a similar hurdle.

Bloo Driver wrote:

I'm starting to notice that almost 100% of the arguments against rape culture existing at all follow a similar vein with the idea of feminism - someone starts with an extremely incorrect statement of what it is (either intentionally setting up the straw man or not, I can never be certain) and then goes to town on that inflated caricature. I find it unsurprising that these two concepts share a similar hurdle.

How do you defend something that is, at its core, indefensible? Take the arguments against it, twist them to be obviously flawed, and then attack those flaws.

So people really don't see the issue with anti-rape panties.

I guess if you're not wearing anti-rape underwear, it means that you're asking for it.

Oh, and if you're not wearing a non-removable gag, I guess you're OK with someone forcing you to perform oral sex.

And how much do you want to bed that they wouldn't be available in larger sizes, because, you know, fat girls don't get raped, because it's all about sex, and fat girls aren't sexy.

(Or for men, for that matter.)

These undies could probably fill out an entire BINGO card.

Why can't we have both? Anti-rape panties and fighting for cultural change?

I get why people dislike the idea of anti-rape underwear, how it feeds into propagating rape culture. In western culture we kind of have the benefit of being to argue that we shouldn't need this, and argue that some dudes need to become better human beings. I don't disagree with anything you've said, Dee. But I can see the benefit of armorpanties in other places in the world where rape is a much bigger problem.

Using hot rich white girls as examples and models is gross, though. There's so much sexualization in the promo video that it's distracting and incredibly off-putting. Just...gross.

Yay! Chastity belts. Because they aren't weird or repressive.

We've established already that rape is about power, not about sex. So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

Amoebic wrote:

Why can't we have both? Anti-rape panties and fighting for cultural change?

I get why people dislike the idea of anti-rape underwear, how it feeds into propagating rape culture. In western culture we kind of have the benefit of being to argue that we shouldn't need this, and argue that some dudes need to become better human beings. I don't disagree with anything you've said, Dee. But I can see the benefit of armorpanties in other places in the world where rape is a much bigger problem.

It would be awesome if we really did have a two-pronged approach. But I'm not sure if a couple of upper-middle class women from Nyack, NY are the ones to come up with that particular prong.

dejanzie wrote:

We've established already that rape is about power, not about sex. So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

Yeah, that part scares me a bit. As I said, he might either go for another orifice, or... I don't even want to think of the alternative.

sometimesdee wrote:
dejanzie wrote:

We've established already that rape is about power, not about sex. So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

Yeah, that part scares me a bit. As I said, he might either go for another orifice, or... I don't even want to think of the alternative.

This is my issue with things like Rapex, which I've linked before. I'd rather not imagine the reaction of a person who falls foul of one.

dejanzie wrote:

So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

I imagine the same thing happens when a woman fights back to prevent being raped: he becomes physically violent or gives up and bails.

In a world where rape is common and rapists get away with their crimes, I understand why someone would want this kind of protection.

Edited to fix silly auto-corrects.

sometimesdee wrote:
dejanzie wrote:

We've established already that rape is about power, not about sex. So what happens when the rapist finds out he can't rip or take off those pants?

Yeah, that part scares me a bit. As I said, he might either go for another orifice, or... I don't even want to think of the alternative.

I would like to know the exact source of the statistic in their video that fighting sexual assaults does not increase violence or some such. It looked fishy and it really is the basis of the entire thing. Especially considering it appears to be aimed exclusively at the violent stranger rapist.

In reference to Roast busters, I am completely against the death penalty, but every time I see a story like that I have that moment of sheer rage where I think... man now THAT is what drone strikes should be used for. Then I calm down and realize we need to address the problem in more... um... constructive ways.

I am hoping that coverage of this particular 'club' will prompt school officials around the world to review their discipline codes, review procedures with staff, and generally make sure they would react correctly.

When Roast Busters rape in your neighborhood... who're you gonna call?

Nobody, because neither the school nor the cops want to do a damned thing.

Alternate title: The First Rule of Rape Club is... tell everyone about Rape Club.

While listening to Savage Love this morning, Dan mentioned a study that found that access to online pornography reduces incidents reported rapes.

Given everything that has been posted in this thread, what strikes me in the article is that the key word is reported. Aside from that, it kind of makes sense if you break rapists down into two categories: those who really want sex (at any cost) and those who want a power trip. I can't see how access to porn would help the latter.

Nevin73 wrote:

Aside from that, it kind of makes sense if you break rapists down into two categories: those who really want sex (at any cost) and those who want a power trip. I can't see how access to porn would help the latter.

If fantasy power trips aren't enough to satisfy the latter, why would fantasy sex satisfy the former?

Valmorian wrote:
Nevin73 wrote:

Aside from that, it kind of makes sense if you break rapists down into two categories: those who really want sex (at any cost) and those who want a power trip. I can't see how access to porn would help the latter.

If fantasy power trips aren't enough to satisfy the latter, why would fantasy sex satisfy the former?

Solution: Oculus Rift & a fleshlight

Fair points. I guess I just don't understand if rape is about power more than it is about sex (and I'm not arguing that) why would access to porn reduce reported rapes unless there are other factors at play (such as a culture that encourages women to not report rape).

Nevin73 wrote:

Fair points. I guess I just don't understand if rape is about power more than it is about sex (and I'm not arguing that) why would access to porn reduce reported rapes unless there are other factors at play (such as a culture that encourages women to not report rape).

These things are not mutually exclusive. The reading of rape as "principally about power/aggression" necessarily has to acknowledge that this is a specific desire around "expressing power or agression via the action of rape".

If we're happy to conclude that 'people who are desperate for sex can be sated by pornography' then there's really no reason we shouldn't also entertain the notion that pornography can also sate people with desires to express power/aggression via sex. Ultimately lots of different things or desires will through different people's heads when they view pornography, so pornography has the potential to fulfil different functions for different people beyond a very simple and immediate sexual release.

Nevin, I'm not exactly a good source for pr0n knowledge, but the little I've seen has a lot of dominance behavior in it. Big manly men being forceful with beautiful women who like that. If dominance/power is your thing, maybe that's part of the equation?

I'm certain there's also porn of big powerful women being forceful with men who like that. If having the type of porn that floats your boat is part of the equation, it's a part that's on every side.

But even dominatrix pr0n suffers from serious male-gaze problems. Like I said, I'm not even close to experienced in this (I personally find pr0n funny as all heck, not sexy).

momgamer wrote:

But even dominatrix pr0n suffers from serious male-gaze problems. Like I said, I'm not even close to experienced in this (I personally find pr0n funny as all heck, not sexy).

I am, and I'll just say there's something for everyone out there

Making the rounds on Facebook:

13 Characteristics of a Date Rapist: A List You Need to Share

13 Characteristics of Date/Acquaintance Rapists

Although there is no profile of a typical date or acquaintance rapist, experts have identified behavioral characteristics that tend to be exhibited by date and acquaintance rapists.

1. Displays anger or aggression, either physically or verbally (The anger need not be directed toward you, but may be displayed during conversations by general negative references to women, vulgarity, curtness toward others, and the like. Women are often viewed as adversaries.)

2. Displays a short temper; slaps and/or twists arms

3. Acts excessively jealous and/or possessive (Be especially suspicious of this behavior if you have recently met the person or are on a first or second date.)

4. Ignores your space boundaries by coming too close or placing his hand on your thigh, etc. (Be particularly cognizant of this behavior when it is displayed in public.)

5. Ignores your wishes

6. Attempts to make you feel guilty or accuses you of being uptight

7. Becomes hostile and/or increasingly more aggressive when you say no

8. Acts particularly friendly at a party or bar and tries to separate you from your friends

9. Insists on being alone with you on a first date

10. Demands your attention or compliance at inappropriate times, such as during class

11. Acts immaturely; shows little empathy or feeling for others and displays little social conscience

12. Asks personal questions and is interested in knowing more about you than you want to tell him

13. Subscribes excessively to traditional male and female stereotypes

*excerpt from Beauty Restored: Finding Life and Hope After Date Rape and Adapted from Carol Pritchard’s book, Avoiding Rape On and Off Campus

That's a good start. Maybe this would help in a few ways - that is, for the men who steadfastly remain blind to rape culture because they feel accused of something, one can point to this list and say "are you these things? If not, we're not talking about you.

I think I saw that list once before as titled "How to tell if that guy you know is a f*cking asshole and you should cut them completely out of your life, definitely by tomorrow, but probably immediately would be better. Addendum: You are literally insane if you date him and may wish to explore counseling."

It's a solid list for recognizing scumbags and I'd go on to say if they match 2 or more out of the first 5 - they should be avoided altogether.

It works just fine when reversed as well.

With some minor editing, that would make a decent "how to spot a pick-up artist" list too.