That's entirely fair, and if Sally was hurt I have no issue with them expressing that, or you two working it out.
What I take issue with is responding to criticism such as yours by declaring something along the lines of 'You're calling me transphobic, homophobic, etc.'. It distracts from the actual discussion by painting the other party as an aggressor, especially when no such claim was made.
In general, I try to do the latter, because I believe that people who aren't trying to upset me would rather know that they have so that they can avoid doing it in the future. And that's what I've done here. Is that a problem for some reason?
Check this out http://imgur.com/gallery/CZhwn3U
It's a funny picture and a bunch of funny comments. If you think about it, it's mostly white dudes making fun of mexicans, and they're not exactly mean spirited, but it's still kind of offensive (Ha! You're only good for physical work and mowing lawns! Modern day slavery!"). If I thought about it for long, it'd be really offensive, because some people bring up the immigration debate and all that, but as it is, they're not mean-spirited or intending to insult, so it's actually kind of nice, in a weird way. Wouldn't accomplish anything if I complained, brought up the immigration debate and told everyone how they were being racist, except making people uncomfortable around mexicans later. I don't want anyone to be uncomfortable around me, like they have to walk on eggshells. If they f*ck up and say something really offensive without knowing, I'll just ignore it because they're probably not trying to be rude. Is it the proper place to complain, an image website? Should it make me uncomfortable just because it's directed at my general race, not even me personally?
I mean, I could get offended at basically every depiction of Mexico ever in Hollywood, but I'd rather just let it go, because most of the time it's not meant to offend, it's just a stereotype (and trust me, out of stereotypes, mexicans are probably only behind Middle easterners). And even if it's offensive intentionally, it says more about the person doing it, and I'd rather just shrug it off. f*ck, I'll even join on the joke. Mexicans joke about each other all the time anyway.
But in the, how do you say, bigger picture? it's nice to be included and recognized in the discussion, even if it's just stereotypes about tacos and wrestlers. Life feels too short to try and educate everyone about how you think. So I say, bring it on, we're not that sensitive. It's not the G8 summit or whatever.
That's what I'd think is the problem with complaining about jokes (that weren't mean to harm) to "regular" people, it only makes them uncomfortable around you later on. Is this wrong? I'd rather have people be comfortable around me, specially people I like, even if they're a little racist. If you really think about it, jokes shouldn't even exist because most of them point out social stuff that can be seriously depressing (even "dumb blond jokes").
I dunno, I probably turned this more into a discrimination thing and not exactly focused on your trans issues, but regarding the comedy side of it, they kind of intersect I suppose. What I've noticed in the few gender-stuff websites I checked out, there's a lot of repressed anger and sensitivity, probably because of as you said, having to live almost your whole life in discrimination. It's probably a different way to think about it on your side, because I don't get how you can have the guts to go through a physical transformation and go in public every day, but pictures still offend you. It might be dismissive but I'd rather go "Don't think about it too much", is that the wrong approach?
On the other hand, yes you should stand up for yourself, but also, you know, pick your battles and all that. This issue is too complex for me anyway and I should be working so I'll stop now : s
Allright, thanks for the response, I both agree and disagree with you, because deep down I know you're right, idealistically (is that a word?) you should stand up for the stuff that you think is wrong.
On the other hand, people always believe they're "right", and they're going to be aggressive when challenged (even in a gentle way), which is why it's tough to correct people who might not care about your problems, even if they're completely unaware of being offensive, and even when they're corrected in the gentlest way, so it might even be counterproductive. That's where I'm torn mostly. I see it every day, people hate being wrong, even when they're knee deep in wrongness, and sometimes they dig deeper when challenged.
Anyway, I believe that individuals are fundamentally good so I'm sure some will care and change. Groups of people, ehh, I dunno... People in mobs are kind of dicks. I wonder what if this kind of things even have solutions. Anyway, thanks for the patience to my dumb ass thoughts
So, what's the issue? Why are people suddenly jumping in here to tell me I'm too sensitive?
In my case it is honest solicitude for your mental health and overall happiness.
I understand that turning off the thinking and analysis is nigh-impossible. But I wouldn't want some of your potential becoming jeopardized by becoming one of those people, to paraphrase an unknown anarchist, "for whom the ordinary 8 hours a day of oppression just aren't enough."
I guess I'm saying you should shave off some of your Twitter time to watch videos of adorable cats.
It [em]is[/em] important that some of us be loud, and be heard. It's just not how [em]I[/em] do things, and that's fine.
Righteous anger breaks through walls. Quiet explanation improves the chances people won't want to re-build them.
I guess that's part of why I get confused when people say things that seem to imply I'm one of the louder sort of activist. I follow some of those folks on twitter, and trust me, you can tell the difference. :D
In order of paragraphs: Strongly agree; beautifully said; I would not and hope no one here would apply the "S" word to you ("strident").
Transitioning from MtF would have been nice to do if I had done it when I was younger, but I am too old now and the effects of TRT has probably irreversibly changed my body so I couldn't really ever pass as a female. It is unfortunate because I do not think I work too well as a male, but the time has passed for any meaningful change for that. So I am just going to focus on becoming more masculine. Which might sound strange for someone that would have liked to have transitioned, but if you can't do the one thing you want, then you might as well try to do the thing you can as well as possible. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it is what I have got. Actually, now that I think of it, there was a MtF on youtube called Jesslyn or something that was really into bodybuilding as a male as a way to cope with being a male. It kind of sounds like me. She ended up making the transition and turned out well, but then disappeared from YT a while ago.
Edit: I'll expand on my thoughts a bit. I can pass as a male even though I feel like a fraud. If I tried to transition now, I feel like I would probably stuck in some form of gender purgatory where I am neither really male or female and acceptable to no one, least of all myself. So I think that's where my misgivings for transitioning lie personally.
...I am confused.
I'm having trouble reconciling the somewhat distasteful joke against women Zane with the very human depiction of himself right there.
I need time to think that one out a bit.
Anyway, stuff like this is always up to you. But do listen to yourself, and keep an eye out for the kind of self-isolation that I experienced. (It was increasingly awful for 10+ years and I never really noticed.) If you do see signs of that, go see a counselor. Not "go see a counselor to start transition", but go see a counselor so that you can have the support you need to keep your life going however you want it to go. Be safe.
I wouldn't know where to get started. I suppose the good thing is that since I require TRT to have normal testosterone levels I wouldn't have to really worry about androgens if I came off of it and tried to transition, heh. I will muse over it.
Hypatian wrote:but go see a counselor so that you can have the support you need to keep your life going however you want it to go. Be safe.
I wouldn't know where to get started. I suppose the good thing is that since I require TRT to have normal testosterone levels I wouldn't have to really worry about androgens if I came off of it and tried to transition, heh. I will muse over it.
Musing is good.
Musing after speaking with a therapist/counselor is even gooder.
For what it's worth, near-total strangers on the Internet are pulling for you.
Unrelated: Can we honor, again, the woman who made so many of the games some of us grew up on?
I wrote a spoilery article about an indie game called Problem Attic by Liz Ryerson that I think might be relevant to this thread. Here is a pertinent screenshot:
I write that the game is, in part, about the protagonist's transformation into a female; although this reading is informed to some extent by who the author is, I tried to avoid referencing this in the work itself because I was worried I didn't know enough about the subject not to embarrass myself. You should all play it! It's awesome.
That must have been terrifying for Lily. How is it these guards/bouncers/police aren't better versed in the laws that exist and, quite frankly, in decent human behaviour? There was no call for them to treat her that way - trans* or not.
Has she written any follow up regarding her letter? I hope the police and the guards were taken to task on this.
I'm glad you're fighting the good fight to help make people aware of this, Hyp. I can never fully understand the horrible things that trans* people go through at the hands of nasty, bigoted, close-minded people, but I can understand that shrugging it off as "That's just the way the world is" is never going to bring about change for the better. That kind of behaviour is NOT the way the world should be.
Group: Calif. Transgender Law Repeal Will Qualify (AP, CBS Sacramento, 2013-11-11) wrote:SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Opponents of a new California law that gives transgender students certain rights said Sunday that they had collected enough signatures for an initiative that would repeal the law.
A coalition of conservative groups called Privacy for all Students submitted 620,000 signatures to get the initiative on the November 2014 ballot, said Frank Schubert, the political strategist handling the signature gathering effort.
It's like prop 8 all over again. Wheeeee.
There were definitely some problems with how the signatures were collected at times (people making outrageous claims about the law while collecting signatures). But it's unclear that this was a systematic problem. *sigh*
So is the main thrust of the opposition pretty much, "I don't want boys in the girls bathrooms"? Or is there something more nuanced (not necessarily logical or fair) that I'm missing?
In case you don't read the depression thread
/raises hand
Hi, I'm Garden Ninja, and I might be a transwoman.
Really confused. Not sure and I don't want to self diagnose, but yeah... it would explain a lot.
*hugs* I just went and read through the thread. I'm glad you'll be talking with your therapist about things and trying to figure stuff out. It's sad to me that being trans is such a big deal in our society that we feel compelled to hold even the possibility back from the people who we ought to be most open with.
Anyway, wishing you the best. There are other complicated relationships one can have with gender, rather than just being trans straight across the binary... I hope that talking things out with your therapist will help you figure out where you are and where you want to be, and that that will help you be happier over-all.
[[[[hug]]]]
Thanks. While I know things are more complicated than just binary gender, it's the thing I can wrap my head around at the moment.
The stupid thing is that my ex/roommate/hopefully-future-partner (god this is complex) is really supportive and accepting. She said "this would explain why you let me put a corset on you, and were goofy and flirty wearing it". Yeah, it kind of does. She wants to go to Torrid next payday and pick out a dress.
Hypatian wrote:*hugs* I just went and read through the thread. I'm glad you'll be talking with your therapist about things and trying to figure stuff out. It's sad to me that being trans is such a big deal in our society that we feel compelled to hold even the possibility back from the people who we ought to be most open with.
Anyway, wishing you the best. There are other complicated relationships one can have with gender, rather than just being trans straight across the binary... I hope that talking things out with your therapist will help you figure out where you are and where you want to be, and that that will help you be happier over-all.
[[[[hug]]]]
Thanks. While I know things are more complicated than just binary gender, it's the thing I can wrap my head around at the moment.
The stupid thing is that my ex/roommate/hopefully-future-partner (god this is complex) is really supportive and accepting. She said "this would explain why you let me put a corset on you, and were goofy and flirty wearing it". Yeah, it kind of does. She wants to go to Torrid next payday and pick out a dress.
Life is weird, relationships are complicated, talking is good, non-binary makes it easier to find a niche (raises hand) but there's a flavor for everyone. We should hang out soon.
(Also, I will happily tag along on any forthcoming window-shopping/money-shopping trips)
Garden Ninja wrote:Hypatian wrote:*hugs* I just went and read through the thread. I'm glad you'll be talking with your therapist about things and trying to figure stuff out. It's sad to me that being trans is such a big deal in our society that we feel compelled to hold even the possibility back from the people who we ought to be most open with.
Anyway, wishing you the best. There are other complicated relationships one can have with gender, rather than just being trans straight across the binary... I hope that talking things out with your therapist will help you figure out where you are and where you want to be, and that that will help you be happier over-all.
[[[[hug]]]]
Thanks. While I know things are more complicated than just binary gender, it's the thing I can wrap my head around at the moment.
The stupid thing is that my ex/roommate/hopefully-future-partner (god this is complex) is really supportive and accepting. She said "this would explain why you let me put a corset on you, and were goofy and flirty wearing it". Yeah, it kind of does. She wants to go to Torrid next payday and pick out a dress.
Life is weird, relationships are complicated, talking is good, non-binary makes it easier to find a niche (raises hand) but there's a flavor for everyone. We should hang out soon.
(Also, I will happily tag along on any forthcoming window-shopping/money-shopping trips)
Thanks! Yeah, we should hang out.
Window shopping would be easier I think to start. Actual shopping was exciting when I was drunk; now it's kind of scary.
Garden Ninja wrote:Thanks. While I know things are more complicated than just binary gender, it's the thing I can wrap my head around at the moment.
Yeah, that's just me trying to hedge because I want to be all like "OMG, another trans person! Neat!" :D
Woohoo! Confused and slightly tentative high five!
Woohoo! Confused and slightly tentative high five!
I checked the index, I don't think that's a thing.
It should be, probably.
Pages