On this thing called "rape culture"

Suddenly a new publishing sector emerges: Rub Edd and Phoenix Rev fan fic.

cheeba wrote:
Phoenix Rev wrote:

PR: Would you mind if we did Mancrusher Maneuver?

LOVED the post! So good to see someone with a sense of humor :).

Well, the humor was to drive the point home. Even after five years of marriage and nearly 13 years of being a couple, I still ask Rubb Ed if what I want to do is okay by him. I just never assume because he has his body integrity and I have mine. Even when I want to hug someone that I know, including my closest of friends, I ask if I can hug them. That is just being respectful and not assuming.

I would wonder why you wouldn't want to be even more cautious when engaging in sexual intimacy. Seems like a simple and dignified course of action that doesn't have to be sterile, but can be a normal part of the conversation before, during and after sex.

cheeba wrote:

Ah love it. GWJ: if you dare to make an argument against our 40 different definitions of rape culture, we'll compare you to rapists.

I don't say it trivially. "She didn't say no." is EXACTLY what date rape perpetrators say. Really.

Valmorian wrote:
cheeba wrote:

Ah love it. GWJ: if you dare to make an argument against our 40 different definitions of rape culture, we'll compare you to rapists.

I don't say it trivially. "She didn't say no." is EXACTLY what date rape perpetrators say. Really.

Speaking of which, some research:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...
And a summary of said at
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/mediacentre/...

Tl;dr: young men are incapable of differentiating the source of statements about women where the source is either men's magazines or convicted rapists

Phoenix Rev wrote:

Well, the humor was to drive the point home.

The point is taken and it's a good one. There should be more communication about sex between partners in general, for sure. But that problem would be better attributed to a puritanical culture than a rape culture, because it's about sex being a taboo.

cheeba wrote:

I don't really make inferences or implications

Redwing wrote:

I'm fairly certain that in my top five GWJ posts of all time, Phoenix Rev holds at least two positions, including that one right here. Bravo, sir! :D

I see what you did there.

cheeba wrote:

But that problem would be better attributed to a puritanical culture than a rape culture, because it's about sex being a taboo.

Getting enthusiastic consent isn't about sex being a taboo in any way, it's about respecting a person's boundaries and ownership of their own bodies.

Edit:
The "rape culture" part is when someone assumes that it is up to the other participant to say "no", instead of the instigator ensuring that the answer is clearly "yes".

Valmorian wrote:
cheeba wrote:

But that problem would be better attributed to a puritanical culture than a rape culture, because it's about sex being a taboo.

Getting enthusiastic consent isn't about sex being a taboo in any way, it's about respecting a person's boundaries and ownership of their own bodies.

Agree...but in the microcosm of what I quoted above (pretend the last four pages didn't happen) - I *do* think that the West's puritanical values when it comes to sex have a strong and unyielding hand in the development and sustaining of rape culture. Teaching women that their value is tied to their purity - whatever the hell that means - makes sex a shameful topic, and predatory men operate with impunity in the dark and shameful pockets of reality.

Seth wrote:

predatory men operate with impunity in the dark and shameful pockets of reality.

This sounds like the gravely-voiced voiceover for some new Matt Damon thriller.

... too bad it's reality.

As discussed elsewhere on this forum what we're really talking about is a culture that encourages "male sexual entitlement", it's called "rape culture" because "male sexual entitlement culture" is neither as snappy or as inflammatory. But the line of reasoning is really that our culture encourages men to feel entitled to sex (moreso than women) and this in turn is enabling to those (few) men who would be rapists, that is it provides the rhetoric and/or justifications they use to rationalise their actions. What we appear to be arguing about at the moment is whether our culture turns men in to rapists and that's really not the line of the argument at all.

There have been studies posted that say rapists aren't as few as you'd think. When one out of 3 women are assaulted, you either need massively serial attackers or a whole lot of them. Sadly it looks to be the latter.

DanB wrote:

As discussed elsewhere on this forum what we're really talking about is a culture that encourages "male sexual entitlement", it's called "rape culture" because "male sexual entitlement culture" is neither as snappy or as inflammatory. But the line of reasoning is really that our culture encourages men to feel entitled to sex (moreso than women) and this in turn is enabling to those (few) men who would be rapists, that is it provides the rhetoric and/or justifications they use to rationalise their actions. What we appear to be arguing about at the moment is whether our culture turns men in to rapists and that's really not the line of the argument at all.

Yeah it's the fallacy that (oh look at this can marked 'worms', I wonder what's in it) Penny Arcade stumbled over in their comic response to the whole Dickwolf thing. Rape culture is an enabler for the most part, not a brainwashing camp to create rapists. But it's difficult to say that this sort of thinking doesn't show some men that it's okay and, by degrees, put them down a path that they might not have otherwise gone.

DanB wrote:

As discussed elsewhere on this forum what we're really talking about is a culture that encourages "male sexual entitlement", it's called "rape culture" because "male sexual entitlement culture" is neither as snappy or as inflammatory. But the line of reasoning is really that our culture encourages men to feel entitled to sex (moreso than women) and this in turn is enabling to those (few) men who would be rapists, that is it provides the rhetoric and/or justifications they use to rationalise their actions. What we appear to be arguing about at the moment is whether our culture turns men in to rapists and that's really not the line of the argument at all.

You left out the part about victim blaming, lack of justice for victims, a culture/society that actively defends rapists and a whole other host of things. "Male sexual entitlement culture" doesn't even begin to describe all the problems involved in rape culture.

Edwin wrote:
DanB wrote:

As discussed elsewhere on this forum what we're really talking about is a culture that encourages "male sexual entitlement", it's called "rape culture" because "male sexual entitlement culture" is neither as snappy or as inflammatory. But the line of reasoning is really that our culture encourages men to feel entitled to sex (moreso than women) and this in turn is enabling to those (few) men who would be rapists, that is it provides the rhetoric and/or justifications they use to rationalise their actions. What we appear to be arguing about at the moment is whether our culture turns men in to rapists and that's really not the line of the argument at all.

You left out the part about victim blaming, lack of justice for victims, a culture/society that actively defends rapists and a whole other host of things. "Male sexual entitlement culture" doesn't even begin to describe all the problems involved in rape culture.

It's all inter-related. You blame the victim because men are entitled to sex and therefore can't be blamed.

IMO, the central conceit that's at odds with how I conduct my sexytimes is that sex is assumed to be something someone does to someone else, something that's gotten or had, or something that's given one to another. It's weird (to me).

To me, sex is like coop Diablo or multiplayer tennis or Charades. I don't hear saying "I gamed her," or "I Diablo'd him." Instead we say, "We did X together." No one gives something to someone; no one takes something from anyone, and no one gets the short end. It's a mutually shared and executed activity and experience. If you're playing doubles tennis and your partner/s's just standing there, the appropriate response is to stop and ask what's going on.

I kind of get the feeling that this thread has devolved a bit from 'discuss rape culture' to 'is this imaginary out of context example rape'

Where you draw a line may be important but rape culture is a distinct issue of it's own.

realityhack wrote:

I kind of get the feeling that this thread has devolved a bit from 'discuss rape culture' to 'is this imaginary out of context example rape'

Where you draw a line may be important but rape culture is a distinct issue of it's own.

I think there's some intersection, if only to discuss the phenomenon of people trying to strawman the concept of rape culture into the ground. "Well, what if (insert vague and/or extreme example here" happened? Huh, huh?! Checkmate," is usually the first or last step in someone's attempt to "prove" the idea of rape culture is just victim culture or mountain-out-of-molehill culture.

cheeba wrote:
Redwing wrote:

Why didn't your hypothetical guy ask if it was okay?

Do you guys (sorry, assuming you're a guy) always ask if it's ok?

Yes. Yes, yes, and thrice yes.

Including with the woman I've been married to for 10 years. A simple "hey, honey, you wanna have sex?" is all it takes in that instance.

Because I'm not f*cking psychic, and because sometimes (for all of us) the answer is "not feeling like it right now".

Bloo
I agree but I have the impression the conversation is turning a bit in the checkmate direction vs. a discussion of the larger issue with occasional crossover.

Valmorian wrote:
cheeba wrote:

But that problem would be better attributed to a puritanical culture than a rape culture, because it's about sex being a taboo.

Getting enthusiastic consent isn't about sex being a taboo in any way, it's about respecting a person's boundaries and ownership of their own bodies.

Edit:
The "rape culture" part is when someone assumes that it is up to the other participant to say "no", instead of the instigator ensuring that the answer is clearly "yes".

Communication is a two way street, and while I agree that the instigator should be checking for consent, the 'recipient' should also feel empowered to speak up when a boundary is crossed.

nel e nel wrote:
Valmorian wrote:
cheeba wrote:

But that problem would be better attributed to a puritanical culture than a rape culture, because it's about sex being a taboo.

Getting enthusiastic consent isn't about sex being a taboo in any way, it's about respecting a person's boundaries and ownership of their own bodies.

Edit:
The "rape culture" part is when someone assumes that it is up to the other participant to say "no", instead of the instigator ensuring that the answer is clearly "yes".

Communication is a two way street, and while I agree that the instigator should be checking for consent, the 'recipient' should also feel empowered to speak up when a boundary is crossed.

Part of checking for consent is accepting when it's not granted, and part of granting consent is being willing *and* empowered to withhold it.

Both of which are troublesome in a rape culture.

nel e nel wrote:

Communication is a two way street, and while I agree that the instigator should be checking for consent, the 'recipient' should also feel empowered to speak up when a boundary is crossed.

"Empowered" is fine. The problem is when the phrasing is as cheeba used, where the recipient of the attention is "responsible for saying no.".

Many Teens Admit To Coercing Others Into Sex

When asked who was to blame, half of the perpetrators said the victim was completely responsible
realityhack wrote:

I kind of get the feeling that this thread has devolved a bit from 'discuss rape culture' to 'is this imaginary out of context example rape'

Imaginary out-of-context example rape is still rape!

Or, um, at least indicative of rape culture.

"Rape?" indignant male asks. "Well, if that's rape, where's the line?"

There is no line. Think of it as a minefield: just be very, very careful.

"Why should I be careful?" (After all, it's the guy who gets sex, and the woman who gives it.)

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

"Why should I be careful?" (After all, it's the guy who gets sex, and the woman who gives it.)

This. All of the examples trying to make the negotiation awkward or less fun...even if accurate, so what? That inconvenience outweighs GETTING RAPED.

I'm wondering, and forgive me if this comes across as crass or clumsy, but it's pretty well established that rape is about power, and that a good number of rapists have probably been raped or abused themselves, and are acting out in a way to regain some sense of control or empowerment over their lives.

So what I'm wondering is, is all this advice on how to avoid rape falling on deaf ears? I mean, would someone who is damaged enough to commit rape be convinced by telling them "wait for enthusiastic consent, yo!" Or do they need more thorough psychological therapy in order to deal with whatever personal demons they have?

nel e nel wrote:

I'm wondering, and forgive me if this comes across as crass or clumsy, but it's pretty well established that rape is about power, and that a good number of rapists have probably been raped or abused themselves, and are acting out in a way to regain some sense of control or empowerment over their lives.

So what I'm wondering is, is all this advice on how to avoid rape falling on deaf ears? I mean, would someone who is damaged enough to commit rape be convinced by telling them "wait for enthusiastic consent, yo!" Or do they need more thorough psychological therapy in order to deal with whatever personal demons they have?

Well yes, but.

Check out the article SixteenBlue linked above - how many of those teenage rapes were about power, and how many were about f*ckwit teenagers trying to get laid? I'd bet money that it's not a 100/0 split in either direction.

TL:DR - both are problems, and both need solutions.

nel e nel wrote:

I'm wondering, and forgive me if this comes across as crass or clumsy, but it's pretty well established that rape is about power, and that a good number of rapists have probably been raped or abused themselves, and are acting out in a way to regain some sense of control or empowerment over their lives.

So what I'm wondering is, is all this advice on how to avoid rape falling on deaf ears? I mean, would someone who is damaged enough to commit rape be convinced by telling them "wait for enthusiastic consent, yo!" Or do they need more thorough psychological therapy in order to deal with whatever personal demons they have?

I think that a large part of having been attacked or abused or raped in the past and enacting the same on others is because in that sort of an environment or childhood, one gets to thinking that power sex or domination games are simply standard operating procedure - that this is what's normal and what sex and relationships are all about. In some ways, they act this way because they know of no other way to do business.

Telling these past victims that things don't have to be that way - that there are alternative paradigms and ways to have relationships with other people - I think it's very helpful.

DanB wrote:

As discussed elsewhere on this forum what we're really talking about is a culture that encourages "male sexual entitlement", it's called "rape culture" because "male sexual entitlement culture" is neither as snappy or as inflammatory.

Then that is problematic. If one uses "rape culture" but really means "male sexual entitlement", then that is using rape for one's own self-serving agenda.