Beyond: Two Souls

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

I am surprised how many people are reviewing this title who have open disdain for David Cage (I like Jim Sterling but he pretty clearly has it out for Cage and the type of games he makes) but hey, opinions from the whole spectrum are valuable and people who are into these games the way I am will buy them regardless of reviews. I am excited for it.

Yeah, I am shocked and confused by the vitriol that gets heaped on Cage--maybe I should pay better attention, but nothing he says seems sufficiently out of line for the heat he gets.

Some reviews have mentioned things that have raised my spirits, regarding sequences where being a fugitive secret agent aren't dominant. Can't get it right now, but may-hap I will soon.

I think Jim Sterling is simply against David Cage's attempts to legitimize video games to Hollywood. Then again, I haven't read his review.

My roommate was planning on grabbing the game originally, but he may not be now. So we'll see. I want to play it, but don't know if I need to.

Now that it's released, I can say this:

- TRIGGER WARNING -

I'm serious. Play at your own risk.

ccesarano wrote:

I think Jim Sterling is simply against David Cage's attempts to legitimize video games to Hollywood. Then again, I haven't read his review.

He makes a lot of criticisms of how the game play works and how ham-fisted the storytelling is at times. As someone who played Heavy Rain, if this is anything like that, I get where he's coming from. But I also really liked Heavy Rain, despite it's problems. But yeah, as much as David Cage's "interactive emotions" mantra may be a little silly, I've always felt Sterling has a bit of an irrational hatred of the base idea for some reason.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

I think Jim Sterling is simply against David Cage's attempts to legitimize video games to Hollywood. Then again, I haven't read his review.

He makes a lot of criticisms of how the game play works and how ham-fisted the storytelling is at times. As someone who played Heavy Rain, if this is anything like that, I get where he's coming from. But I also really liked Heavy Rain, despite it's problems. But yeah, as much as David Cage's "interactive emotions" mantra may be a little silly, I've always felt Sterling has a bit of an irrational hatred of the base idea for some reason.

Might be a European thing. Cage doesn't have many fans among the RPS staff and friends either.

There are people who do think that video games need to stop emulating Hollywood. I can see where some of those criticisms are rooted (particularly when it comes to the blockbuster business model) but I think it's silly to think that the two art forms should be walled off and never the two shall meet. There's things each can learn from the other. That's what I like about David Cage. He has some unique ideas and while they don't always work, they're unique.

shoptroll wrote:

Might be a European thing. Cage doesn't have many fans among the RPS staff and friends either.

Hardly, probably more of a gaming snob position.

Mystic Violet wrote:

Now that it's released, I can say this:

- TRIGGER WARNING -

I'm serious. Play at your own risk.

I don't understand, can you elaborate? What's a trigger warning?

Duoae wrote:
shoptroll wrote:

Might be a European thing. Cage doesn't have many fans among the RPS staff and friends either.

Hardly, probably more of a gaming snob position.

Mystic Violet wrote:

Now that it's released, I can say this:

- TRIGGER WARNING -

I'm serious. Play at your own risk.

I don't understand, can you elaborate? What's a trigger warning?

It's a warning for those who have experienced specific types of trauma or are sensitive to certain content.

The game contains disturbing themes that may trigger traumatic feelings or memories for some people.

Ah, okay. Thanks.

Yeah, just watching Polygon's video review it looked like there were at least two scenes that were...

Spoiler:

...[attempted?] rape scenes. The obvious one in the bar and the one where she gets grabbed at some sort of party.

Latrine wrote:

Yeah, just watching Polygon's video review it looked like there were at least two scenes that were...

Spoiler:

...[attempted?] rape scenes. The obvious one in the bar and the one where she gets grabbed at some sort of party.

Spoiler:

Bar scene is attempted rape. Party scene is physical assault but when it starts, it may appear as an attempted rape depending on the player. I thought they were going to do that to her at first.

Oh great. As much as I love what Cage attempts to do, with that kind of trigger, I may have big trouble playing the game.

@Latrine and MysticViolet,

Wow! So Quantic Dream ploughing this 'menace the female protagonist' furrow again. One of the most objectionable sequences in 'Heavy Rain' - and there were a few - was the utterly gratuitous dream sequence involving Madison.

What I find odd is that the furore that surrounded the recent 'Tomb Raider' has given QD absolutely no pause for thought whatsoever.

Another reason for me not to support these guys with my money.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

There are people who do think that video games need to stop emulating Hollywood. I can see where some of those criticisms are rooted (particularly when it comes to the blockbuster business model) but I think it's silly to think that the two art forms should be walled off and never the two shall meet. There's things each can learn from the other. That's what I like about David Cage. He has some unique ideas and while they don't always work, they're unique.

Full disclosure: I never finished the Heavy Rain demo because I hated the controls so much.

I disagree with your last two sentences and agree with the rest. There's a lot that games can learn from filmmaking as a whole. Framing a scene, writing effective dialog, sound, lighting, etc. All of that can be learned from film and applied to games. But these are just mechanics, and aren't what Cage is interested in.

Cage's problem is that he's combining the worst qualities of a bad technologist with a frankly mediocre filmmaker. He's constantly chasing the new and shiny, claiming that NOW is the time where his vision can be made complete in a way it couldn't before. He's said that only NOW can "emotions" be told through video games. And he's wrong. For example, his "comedy" attempt at the PS4 reveal. The scripting and timing was so clumsy that it fell completely flat. I don't think he understands that technology can't fix issues like a weak script or bad directing.

This is made worse in his games, because games are supposed to be interactive. Unlike other low system games where the player is usually exploring an environment, they're simply guided through the story with a few potentially modifiable plot points in the way. That shatters the illusion of agency that the best games give, and it impacts player immersion heavily.

Two hours in, and I think it's very entertaining. I'm not so thrilled on action sequences from a game play point of view, but the atmosphere, characters and situations are interesting. I know everyone likes to compare games like this to movies (rightfully so), but I'd challenge any movie experience to match the feels I get from controlling a character inside a movie. There's definitely more of a certain attachment you have to playable cinema as opposed to being a passive viewer.

Knowing that most of the choices are on-rails doesn't matter to me if I don't focus on it - there were a couple of scenes early on that were INTENSE, and definitely NOT boring. Lets hope this keeps up with the remaining 8 hours I have left.

Mystic Violet wrote:
Latrine wrote:

Yeah, just watching Polygon's video review it looked like there were at least two scenes that were...

Spoiler:

...[attempted?] rape scenes. The obvious one in the bar and the one where she gets grabbed at some sort of party.

Spoiler:

Bar scene is attempted rape. Party scene is physical assault but when it starts, it may appear as an attempted rape depending on the player. I thought they were going to do that to her at first.

Spoiler:

What is the tone like here? Is it exploitative? Crass? Mature? Smart/Appropriate?

CptGlanton wrote:
Mystic Violet wrote:
Latrine wrote:

Yeah, just watching Polygon's video review it looked like there were at least two scenes that were...

Spoiler:

...[attempted?] rape scenes. The obvious one in the bar and the one where she gets grabbed at some sort of party.

Spoiler:

Bar scene is attempted rape. Party scene is physical assault but when it starts, it may appear as an attempted rape depending on the player. I thought they were going to do that to her at first.

Spoiler:

What is the tone like here? Is it exploitative? Crass? Mature? Smart/Appropriate?

Spoiler:

I consider the scene problematic for a number of reasons. The situation that starts the event is ripe for victim blaming (which I've personally heard ppl IRL say more than a few times - "It's Jodie's fault"). She's also a minor in this scene.

How it's resolved is bothersome because it takes forever. It's a few minutes of trying to save her until the player triggers enough items in the environment to do anything that would actually stop them. Or the player can do nothing and watch.

And lastly, this scene affects a situation later on in the game. That situation is directly tied to a trophy. If the player gets attacked in the bar, no trophy for them. So, try not to get yourself attacked by rapists if you want that trophy.

That sounds extremely problematic.

So, try not to get yourself attacked by rapists if you want that trophy.

Words to live by!

So got it today and have been having fun, though I haven't encountered Mystic Violet's trigger warnings yet (I don't think at least). It's engaging, certainly, much more so than I expected after playing the demo. I do have a couple complaints.

Re: "The Experiment"

Spoiler:

So I played the demo twice. First time, I was a mischevious but still behaved Aiden, returning to Jodie before too much chaos happened. Second time, I wrecked house until the game stopped me and Jodie had a nose bleed. In both scenarios, everyone's sad response made sense. This time, I wanted to be an obedient Aiden, so I only messed up the blocks, cards, and water bottle in order to get enough of a response. Then, as soon as I could, I stopped. However, everyone was still reacting as if Aiden was doing horrible things.

It really kind of pissed me off. I feel like I'm kind of roleplaying two characters here, but I have the most freedom with Aiden as he is not very defined. That the game still expects a certain behavior out of me and thus the character definitely makes it seem as if I'm not playing the game as they envisioned, which means I'm not as free as I'd like to be, which means, yes, it'll be quite linear.

Re: "My Imaginary Friend"

Spoiler:

I'm going to replay this level later, but does anyone know if you can actually kill that kid?

And lastly: something funny happened on my way to the hospital...

ccesarano wrote:

Re: "My Imaginary Friend"

Spoiler:

I'm going to replay this level later, but does anyone know if you can actually kill that kid?

Nope.

Spoiler:

If you choke that kid long enough, Jodie will beg Aiden to stop. He stops right before Philip shows up.

Mystic Violet wrote:
Spoiler:

Party scene is physical assault but when it starts, it may appear as an attempted rape depending on the player. I thought they were going to do that to her at first.

Spoiler:

I went back because you mentioned a trigger warning early on, and I suppose it really depends on your actions. I played Jodie as being sociable except for a question or two, had her dance with the guy but move his hands and then pull away from the kiss. The guy had a scowl, but nothing sexual in nature happened except for being called a slut before they shoved her in the closet thing. I wonder what set of events leads to the more assaulty vibe.

According to the trophies this game has multiple endings. I really wonder what chain of events you gotta go through to get multiple endings out of this game, because I feel like actions and responses have less impact than Heavy Rain. I can understand people's "more linear" complaints a lot playing this game. I'm having a good time, but it really feels like David Cage had a specific idea in mind. I'll see what happens replaying some chapters, though.

Just finished "Homeless", not sure if that's halfway through but it sort of looks it on the chapters screen.

ccesarano wrote:
Spoiler:

I went back because you mentioned a trigger warning early on, and I suppose it really depends on your actions. I played Jodie as being sociable except for a question or two, had her dance with the guy but move his hands and then pull away from the kiss. The guy had a scowl, but nothing sexual in nature happened except for being called a slut before they shoved her in the closet thing. I wonder what set of events leads to the more assaulty vibe.

Spoiler:

They said they'd "do something to her". After that, the dudes pick her up and carry her off; girls not far behind. It wasn't clear to me what that "something" was until they stuff her in the closet.

ccesarano wrote:

Just finished "Homeless", not sure if that's halfway through but it sort of looks it on the chapters screen.

Yup. Halfway. Good luck!

Anyone else amazed by the graphics? The lighting and effects are superb - it really makes me wonder what they'll be pulling off on the PS4. The character's faces lack a little emotion though, I think I'm starting to get a solid dose of uncanny valley.

It depends on the moment. I'm curious if it was done similarly to L.A. Noire, where facial animations were recorded at a different time than the rest of the mocap. However, it blends together much better here than it did in L.A. Noire, where there were moments the two really felt like they were mismatched.

However, the visuals for the characters are pretty incredible. However, I'd argue that there's also not a lot of open environments, either, so there's less the engine has to worry about rendering. Still, that we could get visuals such as this out of the Playstation 3 is pretty phenomenal.

Oddly enough, I don't really get much uncanny valley from the game, though. If I do, it's usually when you can see textures stretching or moving with mouth movements or something, which just makes me giggle.

Anyone beaten this game and willing to lend it out? I don't have the $$$ to buy right now

Swat wrote:

Anyone else amazed by the graphics? The lighting and effects are superb - it really makes me wonder what they'll be pulling off on the PS4. The character's faces lack a little emotion though, I think I'm starting to get a solid dose of uncanny valley.

This is a question sort of related to that. I really don't know much about the game but actually might be very interested in playing it. I ran into that Kara demo that Quantic Dream did awhile back while searching for some old PS trailers. Do any elements of this demo make it into the game? I suppose you would probably want to spoiler a yes or now answer. My guess is no, but I just wanted to check in case. I really wish they would have just made a game based off of that demo.

Spoiler:

I really like AI and android type themes and wish more games would investigate those themes. I'm really excited for that Soma game by Frictional Games.

Nothing like that, though I actually like the premise a lot better myself. I love the potentials of science fiction.

I do find David Cage's whole "EMOTION!" thing funny, though. With fewer polygons and tech, Clementine in Walking Dead broke my heart more than sections of that video managed.

ccesarano wrote:

Nothing like that, though I actually like the premise a lot better myself. I love the potentials of science fiction.

I do find David Cage's whole "EMOTION!" thing funny, though. With fewer polygons and tech, Clementine in Walking Dead broke my heart more than sections of that video managed.

Only The Last of Us has come close. Walking Dead's "actors" were an amazing testament to strong character design on almost everyone in the game. Most of the "feels" in Beyond, half way in are more "That sucks, it must have been hard for her to deal with this stuff". I do care enough to see the conflict resolved, but I just don't have the level of attachment in Walking Dead. Walking Dead was all about that attachment.

ccesarano wrote:

Nothing like that, though I actually like the premise a lot better myself. I love the potentials of science fiction.

Thanks! I was just curious. At least I have Soma to look forward to.