Fabulous Final Fantasy Franchise Discussion Catch-all

garion333 wrote:
beanman101283 wrote:

I don't think you can say Final Fantasy is dead, really, because each entry is a new stab at something great. The name certainly carries with it certain expectations, but each main series entry is a chance for something new and fresh. After 15 entries in the main series, it's inevitable that some will be stronger than others, but that doesn't automatically mean the franchise is doomed.

I don't know, the run on VII, VIII and IX is much better than what they've produced in XIII, XIII-2 and LR (presumably). Sure, all of us have our opinions but for a while there there FF was synonymous with quality, exceptional quality. Now it just seems to mean high production values.

And there are those of us who think the 13 games are better than 7-10. Don't forget us.

Putting aside the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia can be difficult. You can't play something again "for the first time". I wish we could find someone who's never played any of these games, set them all in front of him/her, and see what the verdict would be.

shoptroll wrote:

Everyone's overall output for consoles is a lot lower than the last generation if you look at the number of releases.

FTFY. Pretty much across the board, publishers' outputs have dropped with the shift into HD. Things just take so much longer and cost so much more to make. Even companies with really well-oiled production pipelines like Nintendo have gotten their asses kicked by that jump from SD to HD. I'm convinced that part of the popularity of the PSP and 3DS with Japanese developers is that those platforms have helped hold specs at a PS2 level.

Minarchist wrote:

Putting aside the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia can be difficult. You can't play something again "for the first time". I wish we could find someone who's never played any of these games, set them all in front of him/her, and see what the verdict would be.

I could swear we've had someone weigh in on that in this very thread and come in on the side of the older games.

But even so, it still comes down to personal preference. That's why I've been trying to make sure when I'm talking about their quality, I'm keeping it in terms of my subjective views, not an "objective" claim of quality. Because as much as I'm not really a fan of XIII and consider it one of the weakest of the series (but I still get some enjoyment out of it and played it through to completion), it's definitely a solidly produced game -- and I don't mean just production values. The controls are tight, the game systems are well-defined, there's clearly a lot of effort put into the lore of the world, the soundtrack wasn't just phoned in, etc. It just didn't feel like what I love about the Final Fantasy games prior to it.

Minarchist wrote:

And there are those of us who think the 13 games are better than 7-10. Don't forget us. :P

Give them some time. People were pretty down on XII when it first came out too.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

FTFY. Pretty much across the board, publishers' outputs have dropped with the shift into HD. Things just take so much longer and cost so much more to make. Even companies with really well-oiled production pipelines like Nintendo have gotten their asses kicked by that jump from SD to HD.

I think that's been more prevalent on the Japanese industry than the Western industry. Probably because a lot of the Western devs that rose to prominence (ie. BioWare, Bethesda, Irrational, Epic, Infinity Ward) this generation were well versed in PC development which was already running at HD resolutions before the 360/PS3 arrived.

I'm convinced that part of the popularity of the PSP and 3DS with Japanese developers is that those platforms have helped hold specs at a PS2 level.

Oddly, the Wii didn't get nearly as much support as the PSP/3DS I'm guessing the lack of mobility is the main culprit there?

shoptroll wrote:

Give them some time. People were pretty down on XII when it first came out too.

I think time may be kind to perception of XIII. Part of the reason it got a harsh backlash at the time of release was because it took so insanely long to come out and was overhyped. Another part was due to things that aren't really inherently bad, but different than a lot of people expected/wanted (the linearity, the combat system).

These sorts of perceptions tend to fade as people forget their original expectations and hype and new people come to the game. I see how Wind Waker HD is getting pretty much universal love across the board and remember all the furor when it was first released. (Granted, I think a lot of the criticisms leveled against WW were sillier than the ones leveled against XIII).

Something else I considered: I'm watching my roommate play Ni No Kuni, and the combat system at the start kind of reminded me of watching my sister play FF12. I remember watching a friend of mine play FF13, and thinking "it's flashing lights and numbers". These systems take so long to explain in terms of how they work.

Then there are older FF games, which are "Fight, Item, Magic, Run".

I'm wondering if Final Fantasy started or is following a trend of trying to transform the traditional RPG into something based on unique and complex systems.

ccesarano wrote:

I'm wondering if Final Fantasy started or is following a trend of trying to transform the traditional RPG into something based on unique and complex systems.

Hard to say. The first deviation from ATB was X in 2001. How long has SMT used Press Turn?

Although now that I think about it... Square always played around with their combat systems for various franchises.

ccesarano wrote:

Then there are older FF games, which are "Fight, Item, Magic, Run".

I'm wondering if Final Fantasy started or is following a trend of trying to transform the traditional RPG into something based on unique and complex systems.

I think it's been a Japanese trend recently in general (probably not started by FF, but it's debatable). Whereas many western RPGs are still the same sword-and-board or magic mechanic, you have a ton of mechanical complexity and interest in games such as Final Fantasy XIII, Resonance of Fate, Shin Megami Tensei IV, Baten Kaitos, Tales of Graces, and even more obscure stuff like Hyperdimension Neptunia. They vary from the traditional formula to varying degrees, but all are quite complex and can be mined very deeply for esoteric strategies. They're all also, unfortunately, difficult to get back into if you put them down for a couple months -- something that cannot be said for Skyrim.

IRC has asked me to include (as even more variant examples): Valkyria Chronicles, Paper Mario Sticker Star, and The Last Story.

Minarchist wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

I'm wondering if Final Fantasy started or is following a trend of trying to transform the traditional RPG into something based on unique and complex systems.

I think it's been a Japanese trend recently in general (probably not started by FF, but it's debatable). Whereas many western RPGs are still the same sword-and-board or magic mechanic, you have a ton of mechanical complexity and interest in games such as Final Fantasy XIII, Resonance of Fate, Shin Megami Tensei IV, Baten Kaitos, Tales of Graces, and even more obscure stuff like Hyperdimension Neptunia. They vary from the traditional formula to varying degrees, but all are quite complex and can be mined very deeply for esoteric strategies. They're all also, unfortunately, difficult to get back into if you put them down for a couple months -- something that cannot be said for Skyrim. :)

I don't think it's that recent a trend although it is a defining feature of JRPGs as a genre. Maybe the additional layers of complexity is newish, but many of the JRPGs that came out here for the SNES had unique quirks to their systems that usually set them apart from the other games. Mario RPG was the one with timed hits, Earthbound had the rolling HP meter, FFVI has Espers/Magicite/special abilities, Breath of Fire had character transformations, etc.

Minarchist wrote:

IRC has asked me to include (as even more variant examples): Valkyria Chronicles, Paper Mario Sticker Star, and The Last Story. :)

You forgot Xenoblade Chronicles too

Xenoblade is a WRPG, though.

If crystals had been inserted somewhere into The World Ends with You you'd hear me talking about how that's the best FF game ever made.

garion333 wrote:

If crystals had been inserted somewhere into The World Ends with You you'd hear me talking about how that's the best FF game ever made.

TWEWY is a KH game though.

Demyx wrote:
garion333 wrote:

If crystals had been inserted somewhere into The World Ends with You you'd hear me talking about how that's the best FF game ever made.

TWEWY is a KH game though.

Shhhhh

beanman101283 wrote:

Still, each game is relatively standalone. American Horror Story on TV is an example from another medium. Something about that kind of franchise structure appeals to me, because you can experiment and have a "new" IP while still staying within the bounds of the overall franchise, and people's expectations are different. They know that each entry will be something new but something familiar. I like that everyone has a different Final Fantasy. Yes, it's frequently the one they played first, but there's a wide variety in favorites. People might not like FFXIII, but others do, and XIII being a relative black sheep in the franchise doesn't mean XV will as well.

This is new and much needed in television. I remember Damages and 24. Both first seasons were super strong. While 24 had plenty of legs, Damages had no where to go. Everything felt forced and shoehorned in. 24 came to a similar problem; popular characters had to return even when the character added nothing to the story (infamous Kim Bauer vs the cougar). American Horror Story is doing what FF used to do; and they're much better for it.

beanman101283 wrote:

I don't think you can say Final Fantasy is dead, really, because each entry is a new stab at something great. The name certainly carries with it certain expectations, but each main series entry is a chance for something new and fresh. After 15 entries in the main series, it's inevitable that some will be stronger than others, but that doesn't automatically mean the franchise is doomed.

I think low sales and unnecessary production costs and development cycles will kill FF. The article shows estimated total sales; and they're plummeting. There's nothing wrong with a niche product; but the production costs of FFXIII looked astronomical (haven't actually played it). MMO's are different because the related economic that make and brake an MMO are different from a multiplayer game, let alone a sigle-payer title.

I stopped playing FF a long time ago; I remember laughing at the dialogues ("You spoony bard!") but loving some stories and enjoying the rest. Somewhere around FFX I got disconnected. The dialogues still felt like rough translations and the stories made little sense to me. I couldn't relate to a single character. I think the last FF title I tried to play was FFXI; I never officially quit; I just stopped playing and never bothered to pick it up again.

Finished chapter 11 last night in FF13, Must say the cinematic at the begining of chapter was pretty awesome.

The problem with ffxiii was that Crystal Tools cost so much to develop they had to make effectively 3 games to produce a reasonable rate of return. What makes matters worse is that consoles are moving to next gen which makes Crystal Tools redundant.

As a developer-publisher at some point they will need to commit to one set of game engine to restrain costs and easily deploy staff across projects, something EA is already doing.

Bfgp wrote:

The problem with ffxiii was that Crystal Tools cost so much to develop they had to make effectively 3 games to produce a reasonable rate of return. What makes matters worse is that consoles are moving to next gen which makes Crystal Tools redundant.

As a developer-publisher at some point they will need to commit to one set of game engine to restrain costs and easily deploy staff across projects, something EA is already doing.

I'm hoping they have learned this lesson. It seems that both Final Fantasy XV and KH3 are going to use their new Luminous engine, which is a good sign.

Never could figure how to install the mods previously posted for Steam FF7 to change the music. Instead, decided to scratch that, and proceed with my console playthrough. I'm at the end. Save Crystal has been properly placed inside the Northern Cave, but for now, I'm cleaning up outside on the surface. Got Ruby and Emerald waiting, and am waiting to breed a Green Chocobo, on the long journey that is getting a Gold one.

In all my playthroughs, not once had I even considered Yuffie as a party member. Out of the bunch, she has the best DOUBLE GROWTH weapon, so I'm using her along Cloud and Cid (both have TRIPLE GROWTH weapons), and as it turns out, she's actually pretty decent. Still have level 3 limit breaks to unlock, but I'm liking her power, especially combined with 4x Cut.

FF6 has taken a back seat for now. And am contemplating starting a new run of 12. Don't know if I'm up for it though. We'll see.

How's everyone else's quests going?

Just finished FF13!!! I enjoyed the story even though I did not like the last dungeon as much, wasn't due to the difficulty just didn't like the design of it. Got the all the last bosses on first try though. Might take a bit of the break from it before I start on FF13-2 and play some xillia/dragons crown.

Heading to the opera house in VI. Considering starting XII up again. I think I just rescued a princess and filled out the party last time I played. Not sure how far that is in the game. I think I still have to sort out skill and eq specialties for the party.

I miss XII. I realized that when playing through the XII songs in Theatrhythm (which, I believe is the entire point of Theatrhythm). Is it available for download?

sometimesdee wrote:

Is it available for download?

Only VII, VIII, and IX on PSN for play on PS3/PSP/Vita as "PS1 Classics". I think the Origins (I & II), V and VI PS1 re-releases are under that same label, but you'd be better off with GBA/DS versions I think.

And then XIII and XIII-2 are on there for PS3.

III and IV are on PSN but only for PSP/Vita.

And that's it for the main series. No X, XI or XII out there. Guess they're still selling PS2s after all.

The HD remake of X and X-2 are out soon, and Square-Enix has said that if those are successful they'll do an HD remake of XII. That's probably why none of those games have shown up as PS2 Classics on the PS3.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

The HD remake of X and X-2 are out soon, and Square-Enix has said that if those are successful they'll do an HD remake of XII. That's probably why none of those games have shown up as PS2 Classics on the PS3.

If an HD remake of XII is dependent on the success of the remake of x-2, I'm not going to bother holding my breath.

sometimesdee wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

The HD remake of X and X-2 are out soon, and Square-Enix has said that if those are successful they'll do an HD remake of XII. That's probably why none of those games have shown up as PS2 Classics on the PS3.

If an HD remake of XII is dependent on the success of the remake of x-2, I'm not going to bother holding my breath.

Will X and X-2 be a bundle? If that's the case then I doubt people will choose to skip the HD remake of X if it means X-2 comes with it.

Gimpy_Butzke wrote:
sometimesdee wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

The HD remake of X and X-2 are out soon, and Square-Enix has said that if those are successful they'll do an HD remake of XII. That's probably why none of those games have shown up as PS2 Classics on the PS3.

If an HD remake of XII is dependent on the success of the remake of x-2, I'm not going to bother holding my breath.

Will X and X-2 be a bundle? If that's the case then I doubt people will choose to skip the HD remake of X if it means X-2 comes with it.

PS3 yes, Vita no.

Fastmav347 wrote:

Just finished FF13!!! I enjoyed the story even though I did not like the last dungeon as much, wasn't due to the difficulty just didn't like the design of it. Got the all the last bosses on first try though. Might take a bit of the break from it before I start on FF13-2 and play some xillia/dragons crown.

As an aside, if you really liked the battle system of FF13, the post-game content (e.g. running back to Gran Pulse and tearing stuff up) is really where that battle system truly shines. It's great through the main game, but it is fantastic in post-game, when you're figuring out strategies that take 2000 words to write down and feeling like a beast when you destroy a hulking Adamantoise.

Or maybe you just played for the story and are ready to move on. That's cool, too.

Some pretty new screens from FFX/X-2 HD over on the Square Enix blog:
http://eu.square-enix.com/en/blog/fi...

Also looks like they've confirmed that the International content is being included. I think that was previously still up in the air?

I'm hoping Gamescom sees release date announcements for both X HD and FFVI iOS.

I never got to play FF10/10-2 so I'm very excited for the remake, I'll be preordering as soon as they have a release date.

I finished 13 with lightning/sazh/vanille team from grand pulse on, they the time I got to the last boss they were strong enough to take ultima attack while being in the diversity paragrim. I might come back to Grand Pulse later, but right now having tons of fun with Xillia and I still want to finish 13-2 before Lightining Returns comes out next year!

kexx wrote:

Never could figure how to install the mods previously posted for Steam FF7 to change the music. Instead, decided to scratch that, and proceed with my console playthrough. I'm at the end. Save Crystal has been properly placed inside the Northern Cave, but for now, I'm cleaning up outside on the surface. Got Ruby and Emerald waiting, and am waiting to breed a Green Chocobo, on the long journey that is getting a Gold one.

In all my playthroughs, not once had I even considered Yuffie as a party member. Out of the bunch, she has the best DOUBLE GROWTH weapon, so I'm using her along Cloud and Cid (both have TRIPLE GROWTH weapons), and as it turns out, she's actually pretty decent. Still have level 3 limit breaks to unlock, but I'm liking her power, especially combined with 4x Cut.

FF6 has taken a back seat for now. And am contemplating starting a new run of 12. Don't know if I'm up for it though. We'll see.

How's everyone else's quests going?

I've put my save crystal outside of the watery area on the left path so I can farm materia balls and gimmie elixer enemies. I never run out of elixirs due to W-Item materia. I've got Cloud and Cid with 3x growth weapons, Yuffie with 2x growth weapon and all of them with Rune armlets that have 4 2x growth slots. I got my Gold Chocobo a while back. I've got 3 Master green materia, 1 master Red materia and I'm working on getting one last master Final Attack blue before I head out to take on Ruby and Emerald. I've sold all of my mastered All materias at 1.4 million gil each and have several more in the works. My gil is around 15 million. I've already bought the house in Costa del Sol. Cloud and Yuffie are 99, Cid 97, and the rest in the mid 70's but I've got two mastered EXP plus materia as well. Battle arena is conquered (hence the Final Attack materia), all Master weapons secured, all limit level 4's secured. One down side to using Yuffie, her 4th limit break usually does 9999 damage to all parties, but only once. Everyone elses does damage multiple times.