Penny Arcade / PAX gender controversy catch all.

I don't want to derail the topic. I misunderstand the purpose of this topic. I thought it was more general and not specifically about that silly panel and Mike being a jerk (my opinion). I'm deleting my posts so it's not derailed. Sorry all!

I don't want to derail the topic. I misunderstand the purpose of this topic. I thought it was more general and not specifically about that silly panel and Mike being a jerk (my opinion). I'm deleting my posts so it's not derailed. Sorry all!

Can I ask a completely serious and honest question? I'm not extremely well versed in the intricacies of the terminology.

If you are born with a penis or a vagina, what does that make you? What is the correct term?

obirano wrote:

Can I ask a completely serious and honest question? I'm not extremely well versed in the intricacies of the terminology.

If you are born with a penis or a vagina, what does that make you? What is the correct term?

Human

Edit: snark aside, I think what you're looking for is a definition of terms -

If you're born with a penis, and identify as male, you're cismale
If you're born with a penis, and identify as female, you're transfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as female, you're cisfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as male, you're transmale
If you're born with something in between, or both, you're intersexed

Tanglebones wrote:

Helpful things.

That's actually super helpful. Thanks for the unambiguous explanation Tanglebones.

Zudz wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Helpful things.

That's actually super helpful. Thanks for the unambiguous explanation Tanglebones.

Thanks, even given the initial snark.

Fullbright games cancels their appearance at PAX because of this.

http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013...

Edwin wrote:

Fullbright games cancels their appearance at PAX because of this.

http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013...

Hot scoops! It makes me really happy to see a dev, no matter who, take a principled stand like that. Good on them.

That is actually a pretty awesome post by Fullbright.

Gravey wrote:
Edwin wrote:

Fullbright games cancels their appearance at PAX because of this.

http://thefullbrightcompany.com/2013...

Hot scoops! It makes me really happy to see a dev, no matter who, take a principled stand like that. Good on them.

That's not an easy choice for them to make given how much exposure the Indie Megabooth gets these days. Lots of respect for that decision. Good to see a bunch of writers I respect chime in with words of encouragement on his Twitter account. Will not be surprised if there's an article or two written about this today.

bombsfall wrote:

*RESPECT* for Fullbright.

+1

I know nothing of Gone Home but that was an incredible post.

I think I'll buy a copy of Gone Home when it's released.

Nevin73 wrote:

That is actually a pretty awesome post by Fullbright.

I was surprised to see him mention their (PA's) Kickstarter thing but I'm glad he did. I thought that entire Kickstarter was kind of seedy and few agreed at the time. When you see everything that's happened with them just in the past year though, it really puts things in further perspective. Mike & Jerry really need to take a step back and think about what they and their brand is really becoming representative of with their actions.

Tanglebones wrote:
obirano wrote:

Can I ask a completely serious and honest question? I'm not extremely well versed in the intricacies of the terminology.

If you are born with a penis or a vagina, what does that make you? What is the correct term?

Human

Edit: snark aside, I think what you're looking for is a definition of terms -

If you're born with a penis, and identify as male, you're cismale
If you're born with a penis, and identify as female, you're transfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as female, you're cisfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as male, you're transmale
If you're born with something in between, or both, you're intersexed

Hm. This just surprisingly made me uncomfortable.

So, now I'm a cismale? Instead of just male? I have no problem with transfemales/males, intersexed, etc. But renaming "male" and "female" seems unnecessary to me.

. . .

Thinking about it a little bit more I guess I can see where right now the language makes it feel like male/female is the standard and anything else is Other or unusual, which might make someone of the non "standard" categories feel like less of a person. And, if I'm being honest with myself, I guess that's how I feel, a bit. I understand that people inside don't necessarily reflect what's on the outside, and I think people should express who they are regardless of what they've been given to work with. I guess the language thing steps on my "male" toes. Hunh. Interesting. I'll be thinking about this some more.

Tanglebones wrote:

I'm also being loud about how I'm not supporting them, because ideally I'd like to see them change their behavior, rather than collapse financially for want of my $160.

I completely respect anyone's decision to attend or not attend PAX because of the subject of this thread. The money that a person spends to attend (at least for the badges, which is a small percentage of the total price tag of the weekend) goes to the people that are holding forth ideas that are repugnant. However, consider what will happen if the people who are outraged by this do not go. The tickets they would have purchased will probably be purchased by people who either support, are indifferent to or are unaware of the issues we're discussing. By not attending the unaware are being robbed of someone to show them how wrong the people who agree with these ideas are. Would it not be better for those of us who are disgusted by the ideas Mr. Krahulik put forth to attend PAX and try to educate people on a more sensitive stance?

padriec wrote:

Would it not be better for those of us who are disgusted by the ideas Mr. Krahulik put forth to attend PAX and try to educate people on a more sensitive stance?

That would probably fall under the category of Your Mileage May Vary.

Cis and trans are useful prefixes for clarity in the context of transgender issues. I don't think anyone is honestly suggesting a global change to the usage of 'male' and 'female'. However, in contexts where it is important to be specific, appropriate terminology is needed.

padriec wrote:

Would it not be better for those of us who are disgusted by the ideas Mr. Krahulik put forth to attend PAX and try to educate people on a more sensitive stance?

You don't need to attend PAX to educate those people though. However, completely agree that any sort of boycott would probably fall on deaf ears given the popularity of the event.

Zudz wrote:
lostlobster wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

If you're born with a penis, and identify as male, you're cismale
If you're born with a penis, and identify as female, you're transfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as female, you're cisfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as male, you're transmale
If you're born with something in between, or both, you're intersexed

Hm. This just surprisingly made me uncomfortable.

So, now I'm a cismale? Instead of just male? I have no problem with transfemales/males, intersexed, etc. But renaming "male" and "female" seems unnecessary to me.

. . .

Thinking about it a little bit more I guess I can see where right now the language makes it feel like male/female is the standard and anything else is Other or unusual, which might make someone of the non "standard" categories feel like less of a person. And, if I'm being honest with myself, I guess that's how I feel, a bit. I understand that people inside don't necessarily reflect what's on the outside, and I think people should express who they are regardless of what they've been given to work with. I guess the language thing steps on my "male" toes. Hunh. Interesting. I'll be thinking about this some more.

It's a lexical clearness thing. "Male" refers to all males. Cismale and transmale refer to specific subsets of male. Sort of like having Carbon, but also having the more specific terms of Carbon-12 and Carbon-13.

That's my take anyway. I'm still new to this, so someone more experienced can feel free to step in and tell me otherwise.

Partly it's that. In a large part it's also to address accepted social notions that bio-males are "normal" and one who isn't bio-male is "abnormal" or "other" by introducing prefixes that are somewhat neutral.

Personally I've always thought that it remains a language of segregation and I'm slightly uncomfortable applying labels to people who haven't themselves adopted that label/identity. But I've not thought of anything better and until someone does I'm happy to keep using such terminology.

I think it is simpler than that. People are what they call themselves.

padriec wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

I'm also being loud about how I'm not supporting them, because ideally I'd like to see them change their behavior, rather than collapse financially for want of my $160.

I completely respect anyone's decision to attend or not attend PAX because of the subject of this thread. The money that a person spends to attend (at least for the badges, which is a small percentage of the total price tag of the weekend) goes to the people that are holding forth ideas that are repugnant. However, consider what will happen if the people who are outraged by this do not go. The tickets they would have purchased will probably be purchased by people who either support, are indifferent to or are unaware of the issues we're discussing. By not attending the unaware are being robbed of someone to show them how wrong the people who agree with these ideas are. Would it not be better for those of us who are disgusted by the ideas Mr. Krahulik put forth to attend PAX and try to educate people on a more sensitive stance?

It's a nice thought, but at heart, I'd know that I'd be putting my morals on the backburner so that I could have a good time in the tabletop room. I doubt I'd be hunting down Mike and trying to talk to him about where he went wrong, and I seriously doubt that, if I tried that, I wouldn't be escorted out.

Edit: I've been right on the edge of this decision for the last two Paxes, for the dickwolves, but I was willing to put that out of my mind so that I could have a good time with you, and the rest of the gang. I just don't feel right supporting it any longer.

I haven't made a decision yet but I'm seriously reconsidering my pass purchase this year. I'm also considering if I have enough space to host a PAX East Objectors Party.

lostlobster wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

If you're born with a penis, and identify as male, you're cismale
If you're born with a penis, and identify as female, you're transfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as female, you're cisfemale
If you're born with a vagina and identify as male, you're transmale
If you're born with something in between, or both, you're intersexed

Hm. This just surprisingly made me uncomfortable.

So, now I'm a cismale? Instead of just male? I have no problem with transfemales/males, intersexed, etc. But renaming "male" and "female" seems unnecessary to me.

. . .

Thinking about it a little bit more I guess I can see where right now the language makes it feel like male/female is the standard and anything else is Other or unusual, which might make someone of the non "standard" categories feel like less of a person. And, if I'm being honest with myself, I guess that's how I feel, a bit. I understand that people inside don't necessarily reflect what's on the outside, and I think people should express who they are regardless of what they've been given to work with. I guess the language thing steps on my "male" toes. Hunh. Interesting. I'll be thinking about this some more.

It's a lexical clearness thing. "Male" refers to all males. Cismale and transmale refer to specific subsets of male. Sort of like having Carbon, but also having the more specific terms of Carbon-12 and Carbon-13.

That's my take anyway. I'm still new to this, so someone more experienced can feel free to step in and tell me otherwise.

bombsfall wrote:
lostlobster wrote:

I guess the language thing steps on my "male" toes.

I believe you speak for just about every cis person at some point. It's an odd thing for us to suddenly experience what it's like to be a hyphenated something.

I adjusted to thinking of myself as a TAB within about fifteen minutes of having the term explained to me. I'm still working on cis, but it doesn't make me uncomfortable. It's just a socially nuanced construct. I'm gonna be getting "sex" and "gender" wrong for a while, but that's more because I'm forgetful than out of any personal issues with the distinction.

Speaking as a straight white male entering my 30s, its kind of weird how uncategorized I am. I'm due a few hyphens and cryptic acronyms, nu?

When is PenCon? And is it at the castle or somewhere else?

SocialChameleon wrote:

I'm also considering if I have enough space to host a PAX East Objectors Party.

I've never been to anything like these sorts of conventions, but this sounds like a pretty great idea.

SocialChameleon wrote:

I haven't made a decision yet but I'm seriously reconsidering my pass purchase this year.

This is where I'm at right now too although it depends on whether or not there's a demonstrable improvement in Mike's conduct along with details on what transpires at the panel in question. Or any issues that arise at Prime. It's not this incident in particular but a culmination of incidents with no discernible attempt at preventing further incidents from happening. Even then, the brand feels tarnished to the point where I'm looking at a couple innocuous strips hanging on my cubicle wall and not feeling happy thoughts when I see them.

Anyways, we'll always have the Tamo.

padriec wrote:

When is PenCon? And is it at the castle or somewhere else?

I think Oily said details would be coming in July. I think when I was asking about PenCon during East the consensus was the castle wasn't big enough to host again.

I'm with you on that. For a long time I was willing to dismiss Gabe as being impulsive or out of touch but at least willing to listen with enough public pressure. This feels like the last straw, and that with the many, many chances he's had to walk back his comments or explain himself he just keeps taking every opportunity to double down.

I could do with a change of scenery that's a little closer to home. How about Park, Russell House or Charlie's?

SocialChameleon wrote:

How about Park, Russell House or Charlie's?

Never been to any of them. Bars aren't my scene, but maybe a test run/Boston S&T during the Festival of Indie Games in Sept.?

SocialChameleon wrote:

I'm with you on that. For a long time I was willing to dismiss Gabe as being impulsive or out of touch but at least willing to listen with enough public pressure. This feels like the last straw, and that with the many, many chances he's had to walk back his comments or explain himself he just keeps taking every opportunity to double down.

I could do with a change of scenery that's a little closer to home. How about Park, Russell House or Charlie's?

I could definitely get behind an Anti-Pax