Who wants a Tesla charge-all? Well, you can't if you live in VA apparently.

Planet Money had a really good podcast explaining car dealerships a few weeks back. Didn't mention Tesla, but it's almost the exact same scenario:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/...

This handy map from US DoE can help you plan a trip and show you where there are charging stations.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ele...

Great links! Thank you.

That map is reassuring. Looks like the entire portion of the US that matters (DC to Boston) is well covered.

Keithustus wrote:

Great links! Thank you.

That map is reassuring. Looks like the entire portion of the US that matters (DC to Boston) is well covered.

Note that the other downside for an electric car is the charge time. If you are charging your Tesla at a Tesla fast charge station I think it's 20 minutes or so, which is some extra walking and browsing time at the gas station. A more typical low voltage charger will take more than an hour though. Fine if you'll be there overnight, but very inconvenient mid road trip.

In England and Europe towable gas generators are used to make an electric car useful for the rare long journey. I'm wondering if that will start to take off yet.

My wife and I drive 13 hours to visit her family once a year, so we can't get by on just an electric car, but it looks like we'll need a second car this year and I'm really hoping we can make it electric. Round trip to my work is 14 miles, and it would be great not to need gas for around 80% of our driving.

kazooka wrote:

Planet Money had a really good podcast explaining car dealerships a few weeks back. Didn't mention Tesla, but it's almost the exact same scenario:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/...

Thanks! I remember this one and was trying to dig it up.

So computing the fuel cost for my current car the last three months, I average 12.9 cents per mile. Assuming I would charge mostly in Virginia and not DC or Maryland, which are more expensive, a Tesla would, according to their webpage, I would only spend 2.8 cents per mile. That means I would only need to drive 650,000 miles with a Tesla to recoup the purchase price and replace my current vehicle.

This of course ignores the maintenance costs of both vehicles and unfairly advantages my current vehicle by not factoring in its purchase price from a few years ago. When I include the purchase price of my current car, I will only have needed to drive the Tesla for 400,000 miles for it to be a better purchase overall, in terms of fuel.

In choosing cars, I want to save money and/or have some special convenience. Given that currently a Tesla is still more expensive (at least until 400k miles) and is less convenient to recharge and take on road trips, I'll await the next generation of electrics. As a Wired article pointed out years ago, the higher gasoline costs go, the easier this switch will be for us.

Keithustus wrote:

So computing the fuel cost for my current car the last three months, I average 12.9 cents per mile. Assuming I fuel mostly in Virginia and not DC or Maryland, which are more expensive, a Tesla would, according to their webpage, I would only spend 2.8 cents per mile. That means I would only need to drive 650,000 miles with a Tesla to recoup the purchase price and replace my current vehicle.

This of course ignores the maintenance costs of both vehicles and unfairly advantages my current vehicle by not factoring in its purchase price from a few years ago. When I include the purchase price of my current car, I will only have needed to drive the Tesla for 400,000 miles for it to be a better purchase overall, in terms of fuel.

In choosing cars, I want to save money and/or have some special convenience. Given that currently a Tesla is still more expensive (at least until 400k miles) and is less convenient to recharge and take on road trips, I'll await the next generation of electrics. As a Wired article pointed out years ago, the higher gasoline costs go, the easier this switch will be for us.

If you're buying a luxury car to save money, you're doing it wrong

Edit: I also remember the same arguments when I bought my Prius in 2004, and gas was under $2

Yeah the Tesla is the highest end electric car there is. I have been doing my own math on these lines and generally come up with 80k to 100k miles being the break even point when comparing equivalent cars. (Equivalent being same year, same model, gas versus electric engines).

That and full electric vehicles just simply aren't good at road trips. No one complains that a Jeep can't successfully drag race a Skyline/GT-R or that a GT-R sucks in unpaved mountainous terrain. Vehicles are designed for specific things. Electric vehicles absolutely dominate the city commute, and internal combustion engines still rule the long haul.

That an electric vehicle is nipping at the gt-r on the track and the quarter mile is actually phenomenal. You know... For the 45 minutes it's running at track conditions.

Yonder wrote:

Yeah the Tesla is the highest end electric car there is. I have been doing my own math on these lines and generally come up with 80k to 100k miles being the break even point when comparing equivalent cars. (Equivalent being same year, same model, gas versus electric engines).

What about the Fisker Karma? My only issue with the Tesla S is more anecdotal. There are a ton of them around here and it seems like everyone who owns one is a terrible driver. They're wonderful automobiles though.

I don't mind paying more. I certainly don't mind getting the most expensive product when it's got some extra value or reliability or whatever. Only being able to drive 300 miles and then needing a long recharge isn't exactly the kind of extra benefit that entices me, however. If it were comparably priced (purchase + 50k miles of fuel) I could be interested.

For the more budget conscious, the Nissan Leaf is in Honda Accord pricing territory.

I'd buy a leaf or volt, but the range isn't good enough. Something like the Tesla fits the bill, but certainly isn't saving me any money. But damn they are cool.

Orphu wrote:

I'd buy a leaf or volt, but the range isn't good enough. Something like the Tesla fits the bill, but certainly isn't saving me any money. But damn they are cool.

For the Volt range isn't a real concern. It is an "extended range" electric car, meaning it has its own gas tank and spate engine that runs a generator that recharges the battery, like a diesel submarine. This is different from a hybrid in that the gasoline engine in those is still hooked up to the drive train.

So if your battery runs dry you should just be able to keep refilling the tank, which is only 6 gallons, so you'll probably have to stop every 200 miles or so.

Am I mistaken in how I understand that working?

complexmath wrote:
Yonder wrote:

Yeah the Tesla is the highest end electric car there is. I have been doing my own math on these lines and generally come up with 80k to 100k miles being the break even point when comparing equivalent cars. (Equivalent being same year, same model, gas versus electric engines).

What about the Fisker Karma? My only issue with the Tesla S is more anecdotal. There are a ton of them around here and it seems like everyone who owns one is a terrible driver. They're wonderful automobiles though.

The name is familiar, but it's not in my spreadsheet. I can put it there tonight though.

Well, good point, but I understand the Volt electric range is around 38 miles? That won't even get me one way on my commute. I might as well go with a hybrid at that point.

Orphu wrote:

Well, good point, but I understand the Volt electric range is around 38 miles? That won't even get me one way on my commute. I might as well go with a hybrid at that point.

Ah yeah. The Volt is great for the person who occasionally goes on longer trips, but if most of your driving is outside of their electric range a hybrid is absolutely better.

Seth wrote:

That and full electric vehicles just simply aren't good at road trips. No one complains that a Jeep can't successfully drag race a Skyline/GT-R or that a GT-R sucks in unpaved mountainous terrain. Vehicles are designed for specific things. Electric vehicles absolutely dominate the city commute, and internal combustion engines still rule the long haul.

The problem is what/where those limitations are.
You have to go out of your way to find a drag strip and race.
You seldom have any reason beyond recreation for going off road more than a volvo can handle.
Few people tow much that a decent car can't handle.

Most people, who never once in 10 or 20 years notice those limitations on their vehicles take many trips a year that would have them sitting for an hour or two to recharge their electric car, or having to tow a generator because the trip simply can't be made.

Lots of people have a car they use 'primarily' for commuting short distances to work, but few of those cars *never* go on other longer trips.

I think a lot of those cars never actually go on longer trips. Any multi-car family is going to use one specific car for trips. The other car is generally just for commuting and errand running. It's a big jump to bet tens of thousands of dollars on that assertion though. Incidentally, I think the electric car phenomenon is kind of interesting because it requires downtime on longer trips. In some ways it feels like a revival of pre-automobile life.

Cross posted from the Car Lovers thread

Moggy wrote:

I was at the track last weekend - Thunderhill in northern California - and there was a guy there with a Tesla S. He was parked in the paddock behind me, so we had plenty of opportunity to talk. His main points:

- the torque is fantastic and really helps drive out of corners
- overall power sagged by the end of the two long straights
- it's very heavy (over 5,000 pounds) and that really showed in the corners. He had to manage his braking and entry speeds very carefully
- he plugged in between sessions and over night (110v, 30A) and never ran out of juice. The car did go into "low power" mode after 10 minutes or so and he's not sure why. Certainly not a lack of charge issue. Maybe heat?

He compared it very favorably to the 3-series BMW he had before.

Interesting article about how Telsa is the anti-Solyndra (the solar power company that gave the Obama administration a black eye).

Nevin73 wrote:

Interesting article about how Telsa is the anti-Solyndra (the solar power company that gave the Obama administration a black eye).

And Fisker, sadly, is the 'nother-Solyndra. yonder can probably skip them for his spreadsheet; they seem to be well and truly f*cked, having taken heaps of government money and done nothing but given 2 palin units of teabagger fodder.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Chevy Spark!

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Chevy Spark!

As another instance of American Auto false advertising?

realityhack wrote:
Seth wrote:

That and full electric vehicles just simply aren't good at road trips. No one complains that a Jeep can't successfully drag race a Skyline/GT-R or that a GT-R sucks in unpaved mountainous terrain. Vehicles are designed for specific things. Electric vehicles absolutely dominate the city commute, and internal combustion engines still rule the long haul.

The problem is what/where those limitations are.
You have to go out of your way to find a drag strip and race.
You seldom have any reason beyond recreation for going off road more than a volvo can handle.
Few people tow much that a decent car can't handle.

Most people, who never once in 10 or 20 years notice those limitations on their vehicles take many trips a year that would have them sitting for an hour or two to recharge their electric car, or having to tow a generator because the trip simply can't be made.

Lots of people have a car they use 'primarily' for commuting short distances to work, but few of those cars *never* go on other longer trips.

Without getting into statistics, I can tell you're either a city slicker or a suburbanite. don't take it as an insult - I am too, and my Pontiac g6 proves it - but 6-10 times a year I find myself needing to borrow my buddy's truck to carry 2 kayaks plus camping equipment, and every spring I lament the need to buy mulch and other yard stuff by the bag instead of by the yard.

Add to that 15-20 trips a year that are longer than two hours, and 3-5 trips a year longer than 6 hours, and I've already put myself well out of range of a Volt or a Tesla as an option for a single car. They'd be perfect for my daily 5 mile commute, but that's it.

And this is the perspective of a home owning urbanite whose commute is negligible! Even my experience would mandate that I always have 1 gasoline vehicle available, and preferably one with sizable hauling (and preferably towing) capability. I'm fortunate enough to live in a reality that allows for a two car family, so when my wife's Saab dies we'll look hard at electric cars like the leaf/volt.

So with the exception of drag racing (I'm an old man now but I still remember the thrill of gunning a stage 2 DSM at a red light and dominating pony cars), I question that it takes decades to find the limits of an electric vehicle.

Seth, you are in Pick Up and SUV Mecca, like me. How insanely rare is it to spot a big V8 pick up or SUV with more than one passenger? This time of year, especially, I find it more common to find motorcycles with passengers than trucks. And unless you are driving to Home Depot, when was the last time you say a Truck with anything in the bed that did not have a Landscaping/Construction decal on it?

My little 4 banger is wonderful to take camping, biking, to Lowes for all manner of heavy things.

For you, I might suggest a tow bar and a light trailer. The G6 is rated to towe 1,000 pounds as are many light sedans. My buddy got a tow bar for his Scion, to move about his snow mobile and dirt bike.

Seth wrote:

Without getting into statistics, I can tell you're either a city slicker or a suburbanite. don't take it as an insult - I am too,

Because I used the word Volvo or because I said something about commuting?
The simple fact is that as far as I can tell... the population is by definition concentrated in those areas.
Electric vehicles are much more practical in urban and suburban environments.
So I think it is safe for the time being to ignore rural areas where electric only vehicles are not likely to be practical.

Seth wrote:

but 6-10 times a year I find myself needing to borrow my buddy's truck to carry 2 kayaks plus camping equipment,

funny, my Saab sedan handles that just fine. Is your wifes a rag top or something? A Saab Volvo or Subaru wagon would do the same. And all three will likely tow as much as your friends truck.

Seth wrote:

and every spring I lament the need to buy mulch and other yard stuff by the bag instead of by the yard.

So your friend is one of those no dirt in my pickup types? And the cost isn't enough to bother renting or owning a trailer. Boo hoo?

Seth wrote:

And this is the perspective of a home owning urbanite whose commute is negligible! Even my experience would mandate that I always have 1 gasoline vehicle available, and preferably one with sizable hauling (and preferably towing) capability. I'm fortunate enough to live in a reality that allows for a two car family, so when my wife's Saab dies we'll look hard at electric cars like the leaf/volt.

Actually it sounds like you are the perfect setup for an electric car. One sport/luxury wagon, and one commuter car.

For me the issue is that I am single, so I only have the one vehicle. I had a motorcycle as a second vehicle which was more for fun than anything else, but also got much better millage. But even if I had a bike, my enclosed vehicle would need to be able to make longer trips on a semi-regular basis.
If I actually lived in the city a zip car a bike and a T pass might be enough. Or the preceding plus a motorcycle because... duh. But I live and work outside the city and live too far from public transit to use that.

Hey, snark not needed realtyhack - go back and re read me. An electronic vehicle would not and could not ever suffice as a *sole vehicle* for me. Like I said, I'm considering one because I'm lucky enough to be a two car household.

But, to return snark for snark, If you can carry all your camping equipment and kayaks in a Saab 9-3, you're likely camping at a classy hotel in the city.

The point is that, like a waffle iron or a quesadilla maker, the electric car remains a unitasker, and currently requires another, more versatile vehicle for support beyond a city commute.

Seth wrote:

The point is that, like a waffle iron or a quesadilla maker, the electric car remains a unitasker, and currently requires another, more versatile vehicle for support beyond a city commute.

According to your own post, an all-electric car would be perfectly suitable for the vast, vast majority of your driving needs.

You mentioned a few times a year where you needed something larger to haul a bunch of stuff to a campsite or from Home Depot. But that isn't a restriction of an all-electric car. That's a restriction of a passenger car. Your remaining concerns were about 20 trips you take each year that are longer than two hours.

The label of unitasker seems inappropriate when you're saying that of the several hundred times you get behind the wheel each year there's maybe a couple dozen times when you'd want or need a gasoline-powered vehicle.

We might be hitting the point where gasoline-powered engines are viewed as unitaskers: only suitable for heavy loads and long trips. And as battery technology improves and the rapid recharging infrastructure is expanded long trips will no longer be viewed as barriers to all-electric cars.

I still hold out hope for hydrogen fuel cells powering electric motors. I am not confident in our power grid's ability to clean up, get more efficient, and cope with more plug in devices. DTE is building a big new coal plant in Detroit. It also gets around the delicate balance of super heavy batteries vs stamina and performance. The Tesla with all its batteries weighs more than the incredibly weighty Aston Martin DB9.

The major disadvantage of hydrogen fuel cells is that you essentially have to replicate the entire gasoline infrastructure for it to be viable.

You need production facilities (which will consume massive amounts of electricity), a national network of dedicated transport pipes, and tractor trailer trucks to haul the gas from local storage depots to corner refueling stations that will either have to built from scratch or expensively retrofitted into an existing gas station. Some estimates put the cost of building a hydrogen fuel infrastructure out to the point that it could handle 40% of vehicles on the road at half a trillion dollars.

That's versus electric cars which just requires that you get a special outlet/charging station added to your garage that draws power from the grid.

Our electric grid is already getting cleaner because of new emission standards that kicked in that affect coal plants and the fact that natural gas is cheaper than coal now. Lots of electric companies are shutting down their coal plants because they are too expensive to operate.

Seth wrote:

But, to return snark for snark, If you can carry all your camping equipment and kayaks in a Saab 9-3, you're likely camping at a classy hotel in the city.

What the heck are you taking camping with you? A couch?
I can get 3-4 people plus backpacking gear for a week or so trip for all into my 9-3.

As for 'car camping', I have no problem putting an absolutely insanely unnecessary amount of stuff in my car including half a trunk full of firewood, full size cooler, lounge chairs, etc. etc. 2 Kayaks go fine on a roof-rack and provide even more space if they are large enough to have cargo compartments.
And that is the sedan not a wagon. A 9-5 wagon could get a family of 5 plus more gear than there is any reason for to a campground.

What on earth are you taking "camping"?