The Federal Prop. 8 Trial / Gay Marriage Catch-All

The first? In 2013? Wow.

gore wrote:

The first? In 2013? Wow.

Another case of people seeming to forget the WNBA exists.

Bloo Driver wrote:
gore wrote:

The first? In 2013? Wow.

Another case of people seeming to forget the WNBA exists.

The general story is Collins is the first major sport athlete to come out. The WBNA is . . . not exactly a major sport, as hard as the NBA has tried to make it one.

I was just going by the actual quoted comment of "first openly gay American professional athlete." Which is why, you see, I quoted it. And then responded to it. In a tongue-in-cheek way!

Sometimes I feel like I just do not know how2forum.

Bloo Driver wrote:

I was just going by the actual quoted comment of "first openly gay American professional athlete." Which is why, you see, I quoted it. And then responded to it. In a tongue-in-cheek way!

Sometimes I feel like I just do not know how2forum.

With a thousand different people perceiving your comments with a thousand different brains and only the raw language to go by, your true intentions will never be cloudier.

LouZiffer wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

I was just going by the actual quoted comment of "first openly gay American professional athlete." Which is why, you see, I quoted it. And then responded to it. In a tongue-in-cheek way!

Sometimes I feel like I just do not know how2forum.

With a thousand different people perceiving your comments with a thousand different brains and only the raw language to go by, your true intentions will never be cloudier. ;)

My pee is cloudy.

Am I foruming right?

The quote from the article is (probably) more accurate:

I didn't set out to be the first openly gay athlete playing in a major American team sport

So whatever, I guess that's men's baseball/basketball/football/hockey. I'm still perplexed that such high profile organizations can maintain what must be an incredibly hostile culture towards homosexuals at this point in time.

gore wrote:

The quote from the article is (probably) more accurate:

I didn't set out to be the first openly gay athlete playing in a major American team sport

So whatever, I guess that's men's baseball/basketball/football/hockey. I'm still perplexed that such high profile organizations that primarily focus on public display of masculinity and masculine (in the public's eye) performance can maintain what must be an incredibly hostile culture towards homosexuals at this point in time.

And there's your answer.

gore wrote:

I'm still perplexed that such high profile organizations can maintain what must be an incredibly hostile culture towards homosexuals at this point in time.

This is the point where I try very hard (and fail) to not make a Republican party joke.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:
gore wrote:

I'm still perplexed that such high profile organizations can maintain what must be an incredibly hostile culture towards homosexuals at this point in time.

This is the point where I try very hard (and fail) to not make a Republican party joke.

There are an awful lot of 6-8 figure incomes there, stands to reason most of the professional sports world could be Republican as well.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:
gore wrote:

The first? In 2013? Wow.

Another case of people seeming to forget the WNBA exists.

The general story is Collins is the first major sport athlete to come out. The WBNA is . . . not exactly a major sport, as hard as the NBA has tried to make it one.

Not just the WNBA: Female athletes have been out for decades. I believe enough people have heard of Martina Navratilova for her to count as a major sport athlete. Or do no women's sports count as major sports?

Hypatian wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:
gore wrote:

The first? In 2013? Wow.

Another case of people seeming to forget the WNBA exists.

The general story is Collins is the first major sport athlete to come out. The WBNA is . . . not exactly a major sport, as hard as the NBA has tried to make it one.

Not just the WNBA: Female athletes have been out for decades. I believe enough people have heard of Martina Navratilova for her to count as a major sport athlete. Or do no women's sports count as major sports?

Honestly, in the U.S., none do. Women's tennis has been close at times, but the major sports in this country have traditionally been men's major league football, baseball, basketball, and hockey, and, honestly, the NHL has been torpedoing itself so regularly over the past 15 years or so that I really don't think it counts any more (which is another thread, but hockey has really dropped off the map in this country). While Collins isn't a star, he's been a player for a long time, and the NBA is still a really big deal, and it's going to be a similarly big deal when a major-league baseball or football player comes out (particularly if they're stars of some sort).

MilkmanDanimal wrote:
Hypatian wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:
gore wrote:

The first? In 2013? Wow.

Another case of people seeming to forget the WNBA exists.

The general story is Collins is the first major sport athlete to come out. The WBNA is . . . not exactly a major sport, as hard as the NBA has tried to make it one.

Not just the WNBA: Female athletes have been out for decades. I believe enough people have heard of Martina Navratilova for her to count as a major sport athlete. Or do no women's sports count as major sports?

Honestly, in the U.S., none do. Women's tennis has been close at times, but the major sports in this country have traditionally been men's major league football, baseball, basketball, and hockey, and, honestly, the NHL has been torpedoing itself so regularly over the past 15 years or so that I really don't think it counts any more (which is another thread, but hockey has really dropped off the map in this country). While Collins isn't a star, he's been a player for a long time, and the NBA is still a really big deal, and it's going to be a similarly big deal when a major-league baseball or football player comes out (particularly if they're stars of some sort).

Yeah, let's not confuse an argument about what is a major sport with why an openly gay athlete in certain sports is a bigger deal than in all the others. For better or worse, these are the sports at the center of American culture, particularly straight male American culture, and that's why this is significant in a way those others are not.

the NHL has been torpedoing itself so regularly over the past 15 years or so that I really don't think it counts any more (which is another thread, but hockey has really dropped off the map in this country).

IMAGE(http://postmediaprovince.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/messiercrying1.jpg)

EDIT: Found a better and smaller picture.

CheezePavilion wrote:

Yeah, let's not confuse an argument about what is a major sport with why an openly gay athlete in certain sports is a bigger deal than in all the others. For better or worse, these are the sports at the center of American culture, particularly straight male American culture, and that's why this is significant in a way those others are not.

True enough. I was just trying to be humorous overall. It should be obvious why this is a matter of larger scope, even if the "why" is something people may or may not be alright with when it comes to how sports and entertainment goes. It does touch on one thing, though - is this a bigger deal because it's a black man? I honestly think so. As a national culture, we tend to be much more accepting of lesbians, and on the reverse of that, there's just stacks and stacks of evidence that black culture is exceptionally unforgiving of homosexuality on men. So, there's all manner of reasons why this is a bigger deal than a woman in the WNBA, but I suppose none of them are good reasons.

Perhaps this will bolster the courage of the four NFL players mentioned here at the start of April, from what little I've seen of American football culture it seems that will make bigger waves if it happens.

Sorry about the drive-by earlier. Work and all.

Anyway, aside from the aspect of female erasure (and particularly queer female erasure), there was a more significant point, and I think it relates to what CheezePavilion said about "an openly gay athlete in certain sports is a bigger deal than in all the others". I certainly didn't want to say "No, this is lame and not that big a deal." And in fact, I think at the heart of it, it's an even bigger deal than "major (male) professional athlete" appears to be on the face of things.

The big important thing about the set of sports where this is (or would be) a big deal, beyond their majorness or U.S.A.-ness, is that they are hetero-normatively hyper-masculine. These sports are the bastion of "manhood", which exclude anything that even smacks of anything outside the stereotypical picture of "a man". The "big deal"-ness of this is related to how major the sports are--but so is the hyper-masculinity. And, they're not always in lock-step. For example, hockey is a bit of a red-headed step-child in terms of both majorness and centrality to U.S. culture, and car racing is also not at the pinnacle of major U.S. sports--but I think it would have been much more surprising to a lot of people to see an active professional male hockey player or race car driver come out.

(Edit to add: And that's also why openly gay active NFL players will be an even bigger deal. Professional football pretty much [em]defines[/em] the U.S. ideal of masculinity.)

In my opinion, that makes this an example of an even more amazing sea change--lesbians never impinged on traditional U.S. ideals of "manhood", and this very much does. And that's a good thing. And it's an incredible thing for no other reason than that these endeavors have for so long been implicitly closed to openly gay players, and now they're beginning to be open--and future generations of athletes will feel less pressure to hide who they are so that they can do the things they love.

And the follow-on effects of saying "maybe that stereotypical image of 'a man' is kind of B.S."? Those are good, too.

Hypatian wrote:

Sorry about the drive-by earlier. Work and all.

Anyway, aside from the aspect of female erasure (and particularly queer female erasure), there was a more significant point, and I think it relates to what CheezePavilion said about "an openly gay athlete in certain sports is a bigger deal than in all the others". I certainly didn't want to say "No, this is lame and not that big a deal." And in fact, I think at the heart of it, it's an even bigger deal than "major (male) professional athlete" appears to be on the face of things.

The big important thing about the set of sports where this is (or would be) a big deal, beyond their majorness or U.S.A.-ness, is that they are hetero-normatively hyper-masculine. These sports are the bastion of "manhood", which exclude anything that even smacks of anything outside the stereotypical picture of "a man". The "big deal"-ness of this is related to how major the sports are--but so is the hyper-masculinity. And, they're not always in lock-step. For example, hockey is a bit of a red-headed step-child in terms of both majorness and centrality to U.S. culture, and car racing is also not at the pinnacle of major U.S. sports--but I think it would have been much more surprising to a lot of people to see an active professional male hockey player or race car driver come out.

(Edit to add: And that's also why openly gay active NFL players will be an even bigger deal. Professional football pretty much [em]defines[/em] the U.S. ideal of masculinity.)

In my opinion, that makes this an example of an even more amazing sea change--lesbians never impinged on traditional U.S. ideals of "manhood", and this very much does. And that's a good thing. And it's an incredible thing for no other reason than that these endeavors have for so long been implicitly closed to openly gay players, and now they're beginning to be open--and future generations of athletes will feel less pressure to hide who they are so that they can do the things they love.

Well said. Also, and not to go too far afield, this may help push gender integration forward in some major sports. Baseball's toed the line a few times in the minor leagues already.

Tanglebones wrote:

Well said. Also, and not to go too far afield, this may help push gender integration forward in some major sports. Baseball's toed the line a few times in the minor leagues already.

Yup.

Edit: Oh, and regarding the hyper-masculinity thing. But still, baby steps. Forward is good.

And what would this day be without someone chiming in about the sinfulness of Jason Collins.

I give you ESPN Sportscaster Chris Broussard:

Here's the money quote:

"And if you’re openly living in unrepentant sin, whatever it may be, not just homosexuality -- adultery, fornication, premarital sex between heterosexuals -- whatever it may be, I believe that’s walking in open rebellion to God and to Jesus Christ. So I would not characterize that person as a Christian because I don’t think the Bible would characterize them as a Christian."

Thank God Mr. Broussard is on the scene to tell us who is and who isn't a Christian because, of course, Yahweh and Y'shua need his help.

I didn't know that ESPN was also a religious evangelical station. That's certainly a revelation.

One would hope he'd be fired for those comments, but I doubt it.

I hope, and doubt, doubly so.

Honest question: the last time an NFL player was accused of murder, who did ESPN invite on to give the Christian perspective?

edit: And the haters continue.

Edwin wrote:

Honest question: the last time an NFL player was accused of murder, who did ESPN invite on to give the Christian perspective?

edit: And the haters continue.

I like this one the best -

"What kind of America does the left think we live in? This is not 1947 with racism. This is not 1997 with Ellen. Bravery requires risk."

Sure, man, you're right. It's not like someone is going to go out of their way to be snide and mock someone just because they're gay or anything, or bully and belittle them, or attack and hospitalize... oh crap. Wait.

And even more hate from an associate dean at Liberty University:

When will the first brave athlete "come out" & acknowledge that he & his mother hook up? We need role models for incestuous kids! Courage!

Because a loving relationship between two consenting adults of the same gender is EXACTLY like incest.

These people are truly demonic.

Phoenix Rev wrote:

And even more hate from an associate dean at Liberty University:

When will the first brave athlete "come out" & acknowledge that he & his mother hook up? We need role models for incestuous kids! Courage!

The irony is that people like him are why it does take courage to come out.

Bloo Driver wrote:
Edwin wrote:

Honest question: the last time an NFL player was accused of murder, who did ESPN invite on to give the Christian perspective?

edit: And the haters continue.

I like this one the best -

"What kind of America does the left think we live in? This is not 1947 with racism. This is not 1997 with Ellen. Bravery requires risk."

Sure, man, you're right. It's not like someone is going to go out of their way to be snide and mock someone just because they're gay or anything, or bully and belittle them, or attack and hospitalize... oh crap. Wait.

It's stupid to claim that Collins is "not a hero" (which is a pretty vague and meaningless claim anyway), but to be fair, he is a multi-millionaire celebrity. He could just go buy a private island and tell all the jerkwad trolls to shove it if he felt like it.

There's not a lot of actual risk to him here, and in fact one could argue there's a whole lot to be gained (I mean, I'd never heard of this guy before, and now I think he's pretty cool, surely that kind of PR can be leveraged somehow).

gore wrote:

That blogger's a jerkwad. It's stupid to claim that Collins is "not a hero" (which is a pretty vague and meaningless claim anyway), but to be fair, he is a multi-millionaire celebrity. He could just go buy a private island and tell all the jerkwad trolls to shove it if he felt like it.

There's not a lot of actual risk to him here, and in fact one could argue there's a whole lot to be gained (I mean, I'd never heard of this guy before, and now I think he's pretty cool, surely that kind of PR can be leveraged somehow).

You don't think there's a lot of actual risk here? I think you're falling into the same logical trap as that guy - risk is not just assessed in people jumping you and murdering you (severely unlikely in this case) or anything like that. He's not likely to lose his job immediately, but to think this has no impact on future negotiations or possible deals is extremely naive. Not to mention that the risk is simply having to live day to day in a culture that contains a great many people who think you are a sub-human. Every single day he goes around, now, he will have that label on his forehead for people to do things as above, but in person. People to spit in his coffee for him, call him a {homophobic slur} on the street, and constantly harass him.

We do not currently live in a world where someone like him can just cocoon himself in awesome feelings and erect a fence of sympathizers, as much as it seems like it. The list of recent assaults, death threats, and harassment against gay celebrities is exceptionally long.

gore wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:
Edwin wrote:

Honest question: the last time an NFL player was accused of murder, who did ESPN invite on to give the Christian perspective?

edit: And the haters continue.

I like this one the best -

"What kind of America does the left think we live in? This is not 1947 with racism. This is not 1997 with Ellen. Bravery requires risk."

Sure, man, you're right. It's not like someone is going to go out of their way to be snide and mock someone just because they're gay or anything, or bully and belittle them, or attack and hospitalize... oh crap. Wait.

It's stupid to claim that Collins is "not a hero" (which is a pretty vague and meaningless claim anyway), but to be fair, he is a multi-millionaire celebrity. He could just go buy a private island and tell all the jerkwad trolls to shove it if he felt like it.

There's not a lot of actual risk to him here, and in fact one could argue there's a whole lot to be gained (I mean, I'd never heard of this guy before, and now I think he's pretty cool, surely that kind of PR can be leveraged somehow).

Collins is not a celebrity at all, and is "just a guy" in the league; he's one of those guys who has a job because he was born tall, not because he has phenomenal skill. His career averages are 3.6 points/game, 3.8 rebounds/game, and he effectively has a job because he's a hard worker who's adept at getting in the way and fouling the holy hell out of anybody getting near the basket. While I'm sure he's made a significant chunk of money in his career, he's not floating on a giant pile of money like LeBron, so he's not going off to buy a personal island. He's also 34 and a free agent, meaning there's certainly some risk to him, because he has to get another job on another team. Now, is he a "hero"? Not really, but it's still a big move and it took a lot of balls to come out as gay in a major men's professional sport.