Questions you want answered (P&C Edition)

Hypatian wrote:

Why is sexism the one topic we can't seem to discuss without the thread eventually getting closed down? :l It's incredibly frustrating to want to share news stories, etc. regarding feminist issues when it's like "Okay, what thread is the right place to share this now, or do we even have one?"

Sorry, Hyp.

Hypatian wrote:

Why is sexism the one topic we can't seem to discuss without the thread eventually getting closed down? :l It's incredibly frustrating to want to share news stories, etc. regarding feminist issues when it's like "Okay, what thread is the right place to share this now, or do we even have one?"

There's a thread called "The Conservative War Against Women" or something like that.

LarryC wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

Why is sexism the one topic we can't seem to discuss without the thread eventually getting closed down? :l It's incredibly frustrating to want to share news stories, etc. regarding feminist issues when it's like "Okay, what thread is the right place to share this now, or do we even have one?"

Too many accusing voices too eager to paint other people the wrong color and shoot them in the head. The conversation often turns from "That action is sexist," which is productive into "You're sexist," which is not. There's also a lot of "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story."

At least, that's how I perceive things going.

I don't disagree that this tends to happen, but I don’t think it's what shut down the thread Hypatian is talking about.

The War on Women thread has, miraculously, held its relatively narrow focus for over a year now.

Discussions about sexism in Western media and pop culture are inherently different than pretty much any other discussion we have. Ending with the universally approved "well we disagree, but we learned something about the other side" doesn't work in those discussions, because maintaining the status quo is a de facto loss for minority groups.

So the discussions necessarily get heated.

And btw: despite the threadlocks, we're a damn sight better now than we were two years ago.

LarryC wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

Why is sexism the one topic we can't seem to discuss without the thread eventually getting closed down? :l It's incredibly frustrating to want to share news stories, etc. regarding feminist issues when it's like "Okay, what thread is the right place to share this now, or do we even have one?"

Too many accusing voices too eager to paint other people the wrong color and shoot them in the head. The conversation often turns from "That action is sexist," which is productive into "You're sexist," which is not. There's also a lot of "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story."

At least, that's how I perceive things going.

It's a very defensive zone to be in, on either side. People are very quick to feel judged, as Larry says, but others are also wary of the fact that if they don't point stuff out, it's a missed opportunity. In the end, the main problem is that this is a social issue, which means it has to do a lot with personal experience and personal interaction. So it becomes exceptionally easy to say, "Well, that's how how it goes down for me, therefore this is all invented crap," both towards and away from the idea of sexism being so pervasive.

I've been thinking of writing an article based on the idea that, quite frankly, we as a Great Internet Society just don't know how to talk to each other about sexism.

Bloo Driver wrote:
LarryC wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

Why is sexism the one topic we can't seem to discuss without the thread eventually getting closed down? :l It's incredibly frustrating to want to share news stories, etc. regarding feminist issues when it's like "Okay, what thread is the right place to share this now, or do we even have one?"

Too many accusing voices too eager to paint other people the wrong color and shoot them in the head. The conversation often turns from "That action is sexist," which is productive into "You're sexist," which is not. There's also a lot of "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story."

At least, that's how I perceive things going.

It's a very defensive zone to be in, on either side. People are very quick to feel judged, as Larry says, but others are also wary of the fact that if they don't point stuff out, it's a missed opportunity. In the end, the main problem is that this is a social issue, which means it has to do a lot with personal experience and personal interaction. So it becomes exceptionally easy to say, "Well, that's how how it goes down for me, therefore this is all invented crap," both towards and away from the idea of sexism being so pervasive.

I've been thinking of writing an article based on the idea that, quite frankly, we as a Great Internet Society just don't know how to talk to each other about sexism.

I don't post in those threads anymore, simply for the sake of avoiding saying something stupid that gets me called out or trying to call someone else out and making them feel bad... and much like the gun control thread, after a while, I've had my fill of what appears to more and more toxic discussion and just avoid it.

Hypatian was extremely good about pointing out that Western culture at the moment is very transphobic, and that it's okay to have transphobia, and to act in ways that are transphobic - with certain caveats. I don't see a similar sort of safe space in the sexism threads. Starting off with "You're sexist," is about as productive as "You're a slob and you're always leaving your clothes on the ground." This is not healthy conversation, and there's way too much of it in most threads here about sexism. Actually, it's commonplace all over but the sexism threads tend to get a lot more of it, in manners that are almost immediately toxic and choking.

"You're a terrible person," and "You're the devil incarnate," tends not to generate a lot of good discussion, for very obvious reasons.

I don't think anyone was saying those things.

Demyx wrote:

I don't think anyone was saying those things.

Yeah I did a quick ctrl+f on those words, and did not find evidence anywhere. This may be a cultural issue.

I was heavily paraphrasing and not naming names. I didn't want to offend people.

There's a lot of "If you believe x, y, or z, you're sexist and there's no point in discussing things with you." That's not quite the same as blatant name-calling like "you're sexist" but it falls into the category of sounding reasonable, creating a strawman, and shutting down opposing viewpoints at the same time.

It's tough because we have a lot of caring people here who WANT to understand opposing viewpoints. It's hard to do so without repeating back to the other person what you perceive their logic / viewpoint / position to be and yet when you do that you risk creating a strawman if you are wrong.

Not to mention the fact that a conversation, often between two people, is being watched by multitudes and can be interrupted and taken in a new direction at any time before understanding is reached.

This is spawning a new topic about forum communication and greek forums in my head...

Jolly Bill wrote:

This is spawning a new topic about forum communication and greek forums in my head...

I was going to try and be funny, but all the pictures of forums I could find in 30 seconds were Roman, so... you win this round.

Part of the issue is that people keep bringing up the same arguments that were dissected pages ago. I don't expect people to read the whole thread from scratch, but it'd be nice if there could be a sexism thread that doesn't constantly rehash things like "but sexy clothes on fictional women are empowering!" or "why don't women just tell the men to stop?" or "don't they just wear those sexy costumes for attention anyway?"

There's a feeling that we should really be past this stuff already, and it leads to people getting more heated than perhaps they should. I'm guilty of it.

Part of that is the nature of the multithreaded feminist discussion history P&C has, Demyx. We almost need a primer on what the board has discussed to link to in order to get people caught up.

Demyx wrote:

"why don't women just tell the men to stop?"

In some instances, I've been decked for doing just that. And what was the response to that?

"Y u no call police?!"

The wheels on the bus go round and round... Round and round.... Round and round...

And that's ONE guy.

Seth wrote:

Part of that is the nature of the multithreaded feminist discussion history P&C has, Demyx. We almost need a primer on what the board has discussed to link to in order to get people caught up.

If we can have another thread again, maybe we could have a FAQ in the opening?

Of course not everyone would read it, but then we could just point them to the FAQ.

I find it necessary to repeat the same thing to young impressionable kids once a day for years on end just to get things to stick. I expect adults to require much more than that. I have had some experience in changing cultural milieus on a small scale. The easiest thing is repeating the same thing over and over and over and over again until I'm blue in the face. If that doesn't work, you try harder stuff.

It took 7 years of constant harping in various ways, guises, and subtle hints before I could convince one of my friends to get himself the exercise he desperately needed to stave off serious health complications that annually landed him in the hospital. This was of obvious benefit to him, and it was self-evident. He knew I was making all kinds of sense. It wasn't as if he hated the exercise, either. He knew it in his head, but he didn't really get it.

That's actually a really good idea. Something with resolved facts, like:

1) Sexism exists
2) Sexism is pervasive in many communities, including but not limited to tech and gaming conventions
3) 1 and 2 are supported by both statistics and anecdotes from members of the GWJ community (someone can link an entire library of evidence right here)
4) There exists a culture intent on obfuscating facts 1 and 2, either through mockery, belittling, ignoring, or threats of violence
5) Women do not (edit: and should not -- sorry when I re read that, my intent was unclear) accept responsibility for unwanted behavior by how they dress
6) It is more difficult in practice to "just say no" than in theory

etc. I'm sure there's much, much more that get argued over and over when the resolution is like a page previous.

Proposed topics:

Women have equal rights, don't they, why is this still an issue?

Why don't women just ignore the people harassing them, or just tell them to stop?

Why wear a sexy costume if you don't want the attention and comments?

What's wrong with sexy costumes in media? The men in media are idealized and unrealistic, how is the depiction of women any different?

I read a story about a woman who was assaulted/harassed etc. after wearing sexy clothes / flirting with a guy / getting really drunk, etc. I get that it's terrible to assault or harass a woman, but she really should've been more careful about what she was doing. When I pointed this out, everyone jumped down my throat! Why is that?

There are games with female protagonists. Why not just play Metroid, Portal etc. and be happy with that?

Why are people so upset about rape jokes? Why is it any different than joking about other sensitive topics?

Demyx wrote:

Proposed topics:

Women have equal rights, don't they, why is this still an issue?

Why don't women just ignore the people harassing them, or just tell them to stop?

Why wear a sexy costume if you don't want the attention and comments?

What's wrong with sexy costumes in media? The men in media are idealized and unrealistic, how is the depiction of women any different?

I read a story about a woman who was assaulted/harassed etc. after wearing sexy clothes / flirting with a guy / getting really drunk, etc. I get that it's terrible to assault or harass a woman, but she really should've been more careful about what she was doing. When I pointed this out, everyone jumped down my throat! Why is that?

There are games with female protagonists. Why not just play Metroid, Portal etc. and be happy with that?

Why are people so upset about rape jokes? Why is it any different than joking about other sensitive topics?

A lot, perhaps all of the Hamster Wheel Discussions (you know, lots of motion, but no actual movement) seem to boil down to, some people seem really, really focused on explaining, mitigating, and justifying sexism, no matter how absurd, like all of the above. I think this plays more of a role in thread-locking than some other non-issues cited here.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

A lot, perhaps all of the Hamster Wheel Discussions (you know, lots of motion, but no actual movement) seem to boil down to, some people seem really, really focused on explaining, mitigating, and justifying sexism, no matter how absurd, like all of the above. I think this plays more of a role in thread-locking than some other non-issues cited here.

If we're talking just about the thread getting locked and not about anything else regarding the quality or whatever of the thread, I think it's the reaction people have when they think the discussion can be boiled down to a motive that cynical that is the number one factor. It doesn't look to me like it's the Hamster Wheel that brings the lock, it's the motive discussion of the hamster wheel discussion that gets things locked, I say as I hope this discussion of a discussion doesn't get this thread locked too.

CheezePavilion wrote:

it's the motive discussion of the hamster wheel discussion that gets things locked, I say as I hope this discussion of a discussion doesn't get this thread locked too.

Yes, the inevitable accusation that someone has said something as a "win button" or "trump card" is silly and gutless, and usually pops up right before the lock.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

it's the motive discussion of the hamster wheel discussion that gets things locked, I say as I hope this discussion of a discussion doesn't get this thread locked too.

Yes, the inevitable accusation that someone has said something as a "win button" or "trump card" is silly and gutless, and usually pops up right before the lock.

Then I'd say the best thing to do is not to jump on the hamster wheel with them.

...Not to start the hamster wheel, but *not* calling out a clear "iwin" post seems to result in the same effect.

AND ROUND AND ROUND WE GO!

I think the Conservative War on Women thread has survived because it is about evil and/or gutless politicians passing revolting laws. Them.

The other threads keep getting locked because it is often about the evil within the gamer community. Us.

DP for equality

dejanzie wrote:

I think the Conservative War on Women thread has survived because it is about evil and/or gutless politicians passing revolting laws. Them.

The other threads keep getting locked because it is often about the evil within the gamer community. Us.

100% agree. Even conservatives like to bash the conservative establishment, just like liberals like (and sometimes can't stop) bashing the liberal establishment. Until Todd Akin makes a GWJ username and starts defending his lunacy here in P&C, it's an exclusionary topic.

Talking about how to treat women in cosplay, or the Nice Guy Syndrome, or how men act in tech/gaming conventions? On a gaming forum? That's as close to home as it gets.

CheezePavilion wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

it's the motive discussion of the hamster wheel discussion that gets things locked, I say as I hope this discussion of a discussion doesn't get this thread locked too.

Yes, the inevitable accusation that someone has said something as a "win button" or "trump card" is silly and gutless, and usually pops up right before the lock.

Then I'd say the best thing to do is not to jump on the hamster wheel with them.

The only way to win is not to play.

Demosthenes wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

it's the motive discussion of the hamster wheel discussion that gets things locked, I say as I hope this discussion of a discussion doesn't get this thread locked too.

Yes, the inevitable accusation that someone has said something as a "win button" or "trump card" is silly and gutless, and usually pops up right before the lock.

Then I'd say the best thing to do is not to jump on the hamster wheel with them.

The only way to win is not to play.

You just don't want to share your wheel with the 99%