The "Carrot and Stick Approach" to Welfare Programs

Most importantly, the screenings cost the state a lot more than it saved from terminating benefits.

Give it a few months, they'll complain about the rising cost of the welfare system while not mentioning that the rise was from their own legislation and demand that instead, we be cutting payouts to those that need it. Grrrrrrrr.

momgamer wrote:

According to this report, even that stern a level of intervention didn't really do much.

That report did cite some interesting information about the physical and mental health of truants. It might make more sense to view truancy as a symptom of other underlying problems and do something to correct those issues instead of pretending that truancy *is* the problem.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/h9CCRQY.png)

Fang, what is "home schooling collusion?" Is it different from conservative lawmakers enabling millions of Christian "momdrasas?"

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

Fang, what is "home schooling collusion?" Is it different from conservative lawmakers enabling millions of Christian "momdrasas?"

Most likely groups of students coming together to complete homework assignments so that all the students get it right through a collective effort rather than their own individual efforts.

Demosthenes wrote:
H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

Fang, what is "home schooling collusion?" Is it different from conservative lawmakers enabling millions of Christian "momdrasas?"

Most likely groups of students coming together to complete homework assignments so that all the students get it right through a collective effort rather than their own individual efforts.

You mean like lunch/after hours at public schools?

Well that and home school parents and kids all deciding that they get A's regardless of effort or achievement in order to get the maximum monetary compensation. Or letting their kids do whatever and then saying that everyone has perfect attendance.

Dr.Ghastly wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
H.P. Lovesauce wrote:

Fang, what is "home schooling collusion?" Is it different from conservative lawmakers enabling millions of Christian "momdrasas?"

Most likely groups of students coming together to complete homework assignments so that all the students get it right through a collective effort rather than their own individual efforts.

You mean like lunch/after hours at public schools?

Basically, yeah, but on a higher level. I'm talking full essays/papers that read exactly the same... worksheets that were clearly written by one person being turned in by 20 kids... all of whom apparently have the same handwriting and writing implements. It is much more organized than the quick peak to fill out your own paper.

This article shocked me when I read it in December. While it's not specifically related to cutting benefits based on performance, it gives a stark look into a system that aggressively appears to punish the poor. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/12/georgia_s_war_against_the_poor_the_southern_state_is_emptying_its_welfare.single.html

Rahmen wrote:

This article shocked me when I read it in December. While it's not specifically related to cutting benefits based on performance, it gives a stark look into a system that aggressively appears to punish the poor. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/12/georgia_s_war_against_the_poor_the_southern_state_is_emptying_its_welfare.single.html

Wow... that... was depressing as hell.

Despite its dwindling welfare rolls, the state of Georgia is still allotted $330 million a year in federal money via the TANF block grant program. But there are signs that less and less of it actually makes it to the state’s poor.

Instead, according to a September 2012 study by the nonprofit Georgia Budget & Policy Institute, the state has found ways to use TANF money to paper over other program budgets, with more than half of Georgia's welfare funds being siphoned off to pay for the state's unrelated child welfare program. This maneuver, which is allowed under federal law, has effectively saved the state hundreds of millions of dollars that it would otherwise have to cover with tax revenues.

"There was all this extra federal money sitting around," explains Clare Richie, a policy analyst at the institute, "so it was easy to use that to fill other holes." (A state DHS spokesperson responded that because TANF is a federal block grant, "this allows state policymakers to use TANF funds in ways that fit both Georgia's program needs and the different needs of other states.")

To ensure that states didn't just cash their federal TANF checks without spending anything on the poor, Congress added another requirement, the so-called "maintenance of effort" requirements that would cut funds to states that didn't devote enough money to anti-poverty programs. Earlier this year, a study by the federal General Accountability Office revealed that Georgia was counting private spending by nonprofit food banks and similar private charities to account for nearly half of the state's own required welfare spending targets—more than double the percentage of almost any other state.

Jesus wept.

Jesus wept.

Just another one of those totally bizarre hypocrisies that stop me from even touching a Republican Candidate with a ten-foot stick nowadays.

"We're Christian, but we hate giving people a helping hand and want everyone to go it on their own. Love my neighbor? My neighbors are freeloaders who just want to be lazy, not people in genuine need during a rough time, and I want my money for myself."

"We think the government should be small and have as little power over the private lives of the citizens as possible... wait, oh my god, what are those gays doing? What's going on in that abortion clinic?! More government power for stopping that!"

Buh, makes me sick to my stomach at this point. Actively pushing people away from applying for benefits as they try to deal with spouses abandoning them or abusing them? That's some sick stuff right there. Anyone who views that as a win for destroying the "welfare mentality"? Buh.

ARGH! I went into that thinking it was going to be a thoughtful piece.... Gorilla you owe me a beer if we ever meet up! Post a /sarc or something warning next time!

Duoae wrote:

ARGH! I went into that thinking it was going to be a thoughtful piece.... Gorilla you owe me a beer if we ever meet up! Post a /sarc or something warning next time! :)

Townhall.com and Towhnall Magazine are not ironic. It is a real far right publication, featuring real far right personalities like Dennis Prager, Marco Rubio, Ann Coulter.

Duoae wrote:

ARGH! I went into that thinking it was going to be a thoughtful piece.... Gorilla you owe me a beer if we ever meet up! Post a /sarc or something warning next time! :)

Disagree, I totally expected that piece to be a hilarious mess, and it was. It was gloriously bad.

KingGorilla wrote:
Duoae wrote:

ARGH! I went into that thinking it was going to be a thoughtful piece.... Gorilla you owe me a beer if we ever meet up! Post a /sarc or something warning next time! :)

Townhall.com and Towhnall Magazine are not ironic. It is a real far right publication, featuring real far right personalities like Dennis Prager, Marco Rubio, Ann Coulter.

I realise this but it was such a logically absent piece - especially if you take christian teaching and values as they are presented in the bible - that it was just ridiculous.

I concur. I just though were were getting into the territory that sufficiently insane, but earnest, rhetoric is indistinguishable from sarcasm and irony. IE at some point it is impossible to distinguish between what Glenn Beck does and what Stephen Colbert does.

I didnt get a chance to respond to OG, but I don't want to come off as an a hole who hates poor people and want them all to die. Most of the conservavitves I know don't feel that way, and quite frankly the news coming out of Georgia is horrifying.

As far as capitalism and Chritianity goes, I think well regulated capitalism is compatible. I can't believe I'm saying this, but the more I read about all the cronyism going on between multinational corporations and the government, the more I realize the current system is pretty broken. And I can't defend Ayn Rand on any level.

To me it is just further evidence that conservatives have precious little knowledge of what the verb to reform actually means. "Tort Reform" is not about reworking the civil codes to be more equal and just, it simply means money gets capped. Government reform does not mean an analysis of what works, what fails, and simply becomes about firing people.

I am all for reform. But I prefer Webster's version to that of the Republican party.

jdzappa wrote:

As far as capitalism and Chritianity goes, I think well regulated capitalism is compatible. I can't believe I'm saying this, but the more I read about all the cronyism going on between multinational corporations and the government, the more I realize the current system is pretty broken. And I can't defend Ayn Rand on any level.

The problem is that whatever that is, it ain't capitalism! Same as what was in that article blaming "socialism" for stealing from the rich to make everyone equal... that's not socialism - that's communism. Different things.

jdzappa wrote:

I didnt get a chance to respond to OG, but I don't want to come off as an a hole who hates poor people and want them all to die.

I don't think that at all, jdzappa. I just think there are a lot of erroneous ideas about the poor and people who receive government benefits that largely comes from conservatives enshrining--and amplifying-- Reagan's ideas about "welfare queens" and the general American attitude that the rich are hard workers and the poor are lazy bastards.

OG_slinger wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

I didnt get a chance to respond to OG, but I don't want to come off as an a hole who hates poor people and want them all to die.

I don't think that at all, jdzappa. I just think there are a lot of erroneous ideas about the poor and people who receive government benefits that largely comes from conservatives enshrining--and amplifying-- Reagan's ideas about "welfare queens" and the general American attitude that the rich are hard workers and the poor are lazy bastards.

Really wish I could find a few good Republican Jesus memes to stick in here for this part of the discussion, but I'm sickly and tired.

EDIT: Rereading this makes me feel like it reads like I don't like JD or am trying to bash him or something. Totally not. I like some I've actually liked some conservative principles in the past. I like the idea of having some welfare money to go helping people get jobs and such... but in practice, it seems to be going in a very bad direction.

fangblackbone wrote:

Well that and home school parents and kids all deciding that they get A's regardless of effort or achievement in order to get the maximum monetary compensation. Or letting their kids do whatever and then saying that everyone has perfect attendance.

Ha! I homeschooled through high school and had a pleasant surprise at college: the classes and grading scales were much easier.

Of course, my parents were/are harda**es.

I'm not vilifying home schooling here. I'm saying that with food assistance tied to school performance/attendance, you will obviously see an influx of home schooling because it will be easier for struggling families to organize and game the system. (i.e. path of least resistance leading to rubber stamping attendance)

OG_slinger wrote:

I just think there are a lot of erroneous ideas about the poor and people who receive government benefits that largely comes from conservatives enshrining--and amplifying-- Reagan's ideas about "welfare queens" and the general American attitude that the rich are hard workers and the poor are lazy bastards.

The mythology of the social safety hammock is one of my pet peeves. American social programs are primarily used exactly what they were intended for, helping disadvantaged and unfortunate people get back on their feet. The narrative that someone will never get a job if they can get $5 worth of food stamps each day is beyond the pale.

I reread my post and realized it came off angry, but I wasn't angry at any of the posters here. I was angry at the situation. If you qualify for benefits you should get them.

I also played some TF 2 with a buddy from the Tennessee area, and he had a good point having grown up in an abusive home. The kid of a mean drunk who comes home to say he failed math is going to be lucky to be able to sit down a week later. You're going to have a lot of child abuse cases coming out of this law if it gets passed.

jdzappa wrote:

I reread my post and realized it came off angry, but I wasn't angry at any of the posters here. I was angry at the situation. If you qualify for benefits you should get them.

I also played some TF 2 with a buddy from the Tennessee area, and he had a good point having grown up in an abusive home. The kid of a mean drunk who comes home to say he failed math is going to be lucky to be able to sit down a week later. You're going to have a lot of child abuse cases coming out of this law if it gets passed.

Something I can say I totally never thought of, but also now scares the crap out of me should this come to pass.

I don't know if child abuse can necessarily be ramped up like that. If you are under that situation already, there are probably many other trivial things that are setting off the abuser already.

I guess in less obtuse terms, there is no such thing as spontaneous or onset abuse. It is there or it isn't.

fangblackbone wrote:

I don't know if child abuse can necessarily be ramped up like that. If you are under that situation already, there are probably many other trivial things that are setting off the abuser already.

I guess in less obtuse terms, there is no such thing as spontaneous or onset abuse. It is there or it isn't.

True, but an abusive parent who suddenly has less money for rent/food/whatever due to junior getting poor grades because he or she has an abusive parent to begin with? I see that as a vicious cycle.

Plus, this amounts to making elementary schoolers directly responsible for part of the family income, especially grocery money. Certainly no pressure there, whether or not there is abuse.