Also, I'll add that it's more than a little bothersome and telling that so many male forum members are so intent on arguing in this thread, that the women posting here are getting skimmed over.
Respectfully, I don't think the evidence supports this. Like, not at all.
And don't even get me started on inappropriate comments at work/work functions. When I hear/read about how women are being treated in the tech industry my blood just starts to boil. :(
This is 100% true, every team I've ever been involved with or led has had one or more members afflicted with what I call "manbaby syndrome" - guys who are nice enough, technically proficient, good teammates, but for some reason their emotional growth was stunted at like age 12. I've never worked in the games indistry but I imagine the manbaby ratio must be even higher than tech in general.
You know what? Screw it. Someone get me a chain mail dress. I'm building a Thunderdome.
Get the dress and a ticket to Burning Man. It'll be a lot easier and a lot more fun.
I can't even begin to explain how many times I've "laughed" things off while at work. The few times I don't laugh things away, they respond back with aggression, sarcasm, disrespect, laughter, defensive questioning, nasty comments under their breath...
Most of the time, it's just not worth it because A) no one else will back you up, B) nothing will come of it and C) you end up with a target on your back. It sucks but what are we suppose to do? Build a Thunderdome?
This is the truth, this and Brennil's post earlier.
See, after Brennil's post, and Duckideva's post in the PyCon thread, and any number of Yellek's, and KaterinLHC's posts in this thread (and any other of the fantastic women who still stick around even in the light of the discussion on this thread), I am of the opinion that if you have a penis and come into this thread and say anything but "I'm sorry, I had no idea it sucked that much for women, and I will do whatever I can from this day forward to make sure I don't make women feel this way," you are not getting it, and need to start learning.
The Mary Sue has a followup article with comments from Robert Khoo on PAX's handling of the situation:
http://www.themarysue.com/pax-tomb-r...
See, after Brennil's post, and Duckideva's post in the PyCon thread, and any number of Yellek's, and KaterinLHC's posts in this thread (and any other of the fantastic women who still stick around even in the light of the discussion on this thread), I am of the opinion that if you have a penis and come into this thread and say anything but "I'm sorry, I had no idea it sucked that much for women, and I will do whatever I can from this day forward to make sure I don't make women feel this way," you are not getting it, and need to start learning.
Personally I prefer reading their posts and if I have an issue with something they said, I question them on it. Just like I would with anyone else who is fully capable of defending their own positions.
NSMike wrote:Also, I'll add that it's more than a little bothersome and telling that so many male forum members are so intent on arguing in this thread, that the women posting here are getting skimmed over.
Respectfully, I don't think the evidence supports this. Like, not at all.
At what point do you acknowledge the fact that every single woman who has had the courage to speak up in this thread says, "Don't do this to us, it makes us feel uncomfortable/scared/unsafe"? That our objections have been continually and repeatedly dismissed* as an over-reaction by our fellow male forum members? Heck, you yourself told me in an earlier post that the nature of cosplay is such that you, as a man, feel entitled to express the lust a costume evokes in you to its wearer, because obviously that's what she was hoping for by wearing said 'sexy' clothing? (That argument, by the way, is no different than "if she didn't want to be raped, she shouldn't have worn that shirt".)
At what point are our voices loud enough to be heard by you? At what point do you just stop and say to yourself, "maybe I don't totally get what it feels like, but hey, I don't want to be the asshole who makes the women around me feel uncomfortable or unsafe," and adjust your behavior accordingly?
You might think you're just arguing hypotheticals here, but your hypothetical is my reality. And again, your sexual evaluation of a woman is truly none of her concern. It doesn't matter what she's wearing or not wearing, how pretty she is or isn't. Unless asked, keep your evaluations to yourself. I don't know how else to say it other than that.
*this isn't to ignore the several men who've piped up here to express their support
When I was a teenager, I went to the movies with my dad. I was 17, and it was one of the rare times he was home for an extended period. My dad was a paratrooper and served in special operations, and in my mind, he was the pinnacle of what it meant to be a man. We went to the counter to get popcorn and sodas, and the girl behind the counter was about my age, and I thought she was cute. After we stepped away with our purchases, I thought I saw an opportunity for some masculine bonding with my father, and turned to him, saying, "She's really hot! I think she was flirting with me!"
He stopped, turned to me, and asked, "What's her name?"
I didn't know.
"What school does she go to?"
I didn't know.
"What does she like to do when she's off work?"
I didn't know.
"What does she want to do when she gets out of school?"
I didn't know. At this point, I knew I had said something wrong, but I didn't know what.
My dad quietly explained to me that I had taken a human being and turned her into an object. I made no consideration of who she was as a person. Instead, I looked at her as something put there for my enjoyment. I knew nothing about her, but made an assumption as to her motivations. He didn't yell, and he didn't make a scene. He just quietly pointed out what I had done, and I felt like an ass. (My dad's kind of a badass.)
The fact is, your intent when you approach a woman to talk to her doesn't really matter. If I tell a woman, "You look great!" out of the blue, I'm assuming that she is interested in me evaluating her physical appearance and reporting on my findings. If I tell a woman, "You look sexy!", I'm assuming that she was hoping to evoke a sexual response out of her and I am rewarding her for her efforts. Maybe she is interested in hearing what I think of her appearance. Maybe she thinks I'm ten pounds of sexy in a five pound bag, and wants nothing more in this world than to draw my sexual attention. Assuming that either of those is the case is horrifyingly presumptuous. Assuming anything about a woman you don't know is horrifyingly presumptuous.
If a woman walks by wearing a carefully crafted cosplay outfit, here's what I think is safe to assume. She is passionate about Dr.Who/Mass Effect/Mr.Wizard/etc, so passionate that she worked hard to put together a costume. As such, the acceptable response to that costume is, "Hey, that's an awesome costume!" Not a sexy costume, not that she looks great in said costume. Just that it's a nice costume.
I also really have an issue with the idea that if you find a character sexy, or if a lot of men find a character sexy, or if a character is frequently sexually objectified, then that is the only reason a person can like the character, and if you dress as them then you are looking for sexual comments.
Lara Croft does more than look sexy. She is also an archaeologist, an adventurer, a gunslinger etc. Maybe the woman playing Lara Croft is an archaeology grad student who finds this sort of archaeological-adventurer ideal amusing or cool. You don't know! And if you really want to know a woman's motivation for putting on a costume, you could just ask something like, "Hey, that's a neat costume. Why did you choose that character?" That's a good deal less offensive then assuming it must be sexual.
Indiana Jones is sexy too, I don't see anyone suggesting a man wearing such a costume deserves to be asked about his package size in front of a crowd.
I want to buy trichy's dad a beer.
Related industry business:
http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/28/415...
The Mary Sue has a followup article with comments from Robert Khoo on PAX's handling of the situation:
http://www.themarysue.com/pax-tomb-raider-cosplay/
I read Khoo's response and while it's nice as far as it goes (they kicked the asshole "journalist" out of PAX and he's not allowed back), I'm not sure why the offending dickhead and the company he works for aren't being named. I mean, sure, I can understand why the Lara Croft cosplayers wouldn't want to name names, out of fear of internet manbaby* retaliation, but why not PAX staff who were running the show?
That said, it seems to me the first step in collectively dealing with something like this is to say, in front of God and everybody, that John Smith of Gamenetters Inc is bad and should feel bad. The dumbass made a statement in a public space with multiple witnesses, so libel or slander shouldn't be a concern, right? Make him own it.
I'm raising a couple of girls that love them some vidya games. The oldest is approaching adolescence much more quickly than I am prepared for, and it alternately frustrates and terrifies me that the culture surrounding gaming is so boorish and cowardly toward women. I can do my best to have them avoid the bro-sphere* generally, but I'd really like to be able to point to someone specific now and then to say, "See that guy over there, John Smith? He's a horrible human being. The people defending him are at worst similarly horrible and at best terrifically misguided. Act accordingly." Examples are useful things.
*Thanks to NormanTheIntern and The Wanderer for these terms, which are awesome and have been added to my personal lexicon
baddass dad
*mentally files this away for future use*
Related industry business:
http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/28/415...
That's really sad to hear, and not surprised in the least at some of those resignations. Aye, everything's bubbling over this week it seems.
Maybe we need to have a safe space version of this thread, and a...thunderdome(?) version of this thread.
This already is the thunderdome thread.
See, after Brennil's post, and Duckideva's post in the PyCon thread, and any number of Yellek's, and KaterinLHC's posts in this thread (and any other of the fantastic women who still stick around even in the light of the discussion on this thread), I am of the opinion that if you have a penis and come into this thread and say anything but "I'm sorry, I had no idea it sucked that much for women, and I will do whatever I can from this day forward to make sure I don't make women feel this way," you are not getting it, and need to start learning.
There are those of us who are aware of this and are trying to enlighten. Please don't discount our posts or judge us if we don't apologize for idiots others simply because we're male.
EDIT: Sometimes not an idiot. I reworded that.
NSMike wrote:See, after Brennil's post, and Duckideva's post in the PyCon thread, and any number of Yellek's, and KaterinLHC's posts in this thread (and any other of the fantastic women who still stick around even in the light of the discussion on this thread), I am of the opinion that if you have a penis and come into this thread and say anything but "I'm sorry, I had no idea it sucked that much for women, and I will do whatever I can from this day forward to make sure I don't make women feel this way," you are not getting it, and need to start learning.
There are those of us who are aware of this and are trying to enlighten. Please don't discount our posts or judge us if we don't apologize for
idiotsothers simply because we're male.
Lou, I don't think he was aiming that at you or anyone else trying to help enlighten. (Correct me if I'm wrong NSMike)
NSMike wrote:See, after Brennil's post, and Duckideva's post in the PyCon thread, and any number of Yellek's, and KaterinLHC's posts in this thread (and any other of the fantastic women who still stick around even in the light of the discussion on this thread), I am of the opinion that if you have a penis and come into this thread and say anything but "I'm sorry, I had no idea it sucked that much for women, and I will do whatever I can from this day forward to make sure I don't make women feel this way," you are not getting it, and need to start learning.
Personally I prefer reading their posts and if I have an issue with something they said, I question them on it. Just like I would with anyone else who is fully capable of defending their own positions.
This is not a difficult concept. I'll give you a multiple choice scenario that should be fairly easy to answer.
You meet another individual. This person is attractive, and you think so. You are engaging in casual conversation. Assume for this scenario this person is no more than a new acquaintance; they are not a friend (new or long-time), date, significant other, intimate partner, or spouse. An unsolicited comment on that person's appearance with relation to intimate context is appropriate:
A. When you think they are attractive.
B. Because the clothing they're wearing looks sexy.
C. Because they are emulating someone who is a sex object in a specific medium.
D. Because they're acting like they like that kind of attention.
E. Never.
[size=28]THE ANSWER IS F*CKING E[/size]
I've long thought we should use the Barter Town model for our legal code, and all our laws should be easily to chant--Two Men Enter One Man Leaves, Bust a Deal Face the Wheel, and so forth.
I also really have an issue with the idea that if you find a character sexy, or if a lot of men find a character sexy, or if a character is frequently sexually objectified, then that is the only reason a person can like the character,
Werd. The game world seems to have this weird issue with boiling off everything a character actually is and reducing them to only one thing, ignoring often interesting characterization. And invariably, when that character is female, the one thing they get reduced to is a sex object.
Closer to the topic at hand...I don't have much to say because that sort of behavior is indefensible.
Since "enlighten" is an adjective that can be applied to either side of the arguments here, albeit entirely incorrectly for one side, let's say it was not directed at those male posters who have not tried to justify a position that allows them to treat another human being poorly because they can't or won't make an effort to adjust their perspective to have some basic empathy for the women in our society.
At what point do you acknowledge the fact that every single woman who has had the courage to speak up in this thread says, "Don't do this to us, it makes us feel uncomfortable/scared/unsafe"? That our objections have been continually and repeatedly dismissed* as an over-reaction by our fellow male forum members?
I went out of my way to acknowledge that several times in my frist three posts. I'll cite what I said:
What the journo said was over the line, the other anecdotes expressed were even worse
again, the specific examples she provided were 100% wrong
With respect to the things that were said to these girls - agreed. (Again, what was said was 100% wrong)
no one "deserves" a comment like the ones that were said
Heck, you yourself told me in an earlier post that the nature of cosplay is such that you, as a man, feel entitled to express the lust a costume evokes in you to its wearer, because obviously that's what she was hoping for by wearing said 'sexy' clothing?
That's a misrepresentation of my position - I said that the audience should be able to express emotions invoked by an artist since that's kind of the point of art. Audience and artist both gender neutral.
(That argument, by the way, is no different than "if she didn't want to be raped, she shouldn't have worn that shirt".)
Stop. Just stop. I made it exceedingly clear that the cosplay thing did not excuse the crude comments, and since I apparently have to spell it out, the arguments are completely different because one of them involves rape. Painting everyone who doesn't totally agree with you with a broad sexism brush and ignoring the points actually being made is one thing, but attempting to insinuate that I'd be okay with rape is totally over the line - you know nothing about me.
Since "enlighten" is an adjective that can be applied to either side of the arguments here, albeit entirely incorrectly for one side, let's say it was not directed at those male posters who have not tried to justify a position that allows them to treat another human being poorly because they can't or won't make an effort to adjust their perspective.
Understood, NSMike. I didn't intend to water down your point, which is well put IMO. Just thought it might need to be clarified a bit. There is plenty more that can be said on this particular subject and it's an ongoing problem in society, so I'd hate for anyone to feel squelched if they have something to say.
Stop. Just stop.
Well, now. That just sort of makes my point for me, doesn't it?
That's a misrepresentation of my position - I said that the audience should be able to express emotions invoked by an artist since that's kind of the point of art. Audience and artist both gender neutral.
No, you argued that your lust -- that is, your sexual response -- was an emotion you should be allowed to express. But "I think you're attractive" is not an emotion. Lust is not an emotion. It is a function of biology.
So instead of trying to shut down the conversation ("stop, just stop"), and telling me how out of line I am and how wounded your pride is by me expressing my own discomfort ("attempting to insinuate that I'd be okay with rape is totally over the line - you know nothing about me."), maybe, just maybe, you should re-evaluate what you've said and whether it effectively communicated what you intended it to. Take a closer look at what you're saying and how your own position of privilege is baked into it, and consider how you've made the women around you feel (or at least just this one woman).
The proper response to "you've hurt my feelings", especially when you sit in a position of privilege compared to the other person, is not "but your offense hurts my feelings more".
(That argument, by the way, is no different than "if she didn't want to be raped, she shouldn't have worn that shirt".)Stop. Just stop. I made it exceedingly clear that the cosplay thing did not excuse the crude comments, and since I apparently have to spell it out, the arguments are completely different because one of them involves rape. Painting everyone who doesn't totally agree with you with a broad sexism brush and ignoring the points actually being made is one thing, but attempting to insinuate that I'd be okay with rape is totally over the line - you know nothing about me.
But in the abstract it is fairly close to "Because of X visual queue which an entity interprets as sexualized, said entity's unwarranted sexual advance (verbal, physical) is warranted."
It's not saying that you by defending that position support rape. It is saying that your defense of that position relies on a very similar argument, which could therefore call into question your defense of said position.
*EDIT*
Apostrophe.
(For those of you who don't view women as "use-cases", we thank you, appreciate you, and wish there were lots and lots more of you.)
But we can still look discretely, right?
The thing about sexual harrassment, which is what we're talking about, is that context does not matter. Only the feelings and interpretations of the victims, in this case mostly women, matter.
Let's say I come from a family or culture where telling a person they are super-hot is considered a casual surface compliment, and completely appropriate to say to basically anyone.
If I say that to a woman and she gets offended, feels threatened, or feels harrased, then that's what I did. I harrassed her.
If I say that to a woman and she appreciates the comment, but it makes someone else in the room uncomfortable, well, I just harrased that other person. (Technically I created an unhealthy environment for that other person, but I consider it about the same.)
Short version: I think the discussion is still a little to focused on the context, because it's pax and cosplayers. That's the least important part of this.
But "I think you're attractive" is not an emotion. Lust is not an emotion. It is a function of biology.
I don't agree - all emotions have biological components. Is fear an emotion? Is joy? I don't think you can reasonably draw the line between mental state and biological reflex when it comes to the range of human emotions - one informs the other.
So instead of trying to shut down the conversation ("stop, just stop"), and telling me how out of line I am and how wounded your pride is by me expressing my own discomfort ("attempting to insinuate that I'd be okay with rape is totally over the line - you know nothing about me."), maybe, just maybe, you should re-evaluate what you've said and whether it effectively communicated what you intended it to. Take a closer look at what you're saying and how your own position of privilege is baked into it, and consider how you've made the women around you feel (or at least just this one woman).
From my perspective, you're talking past me, assigning me positions I explicitly did not take, and using me as a placeholder for a_brosef_00. I agree with you 95% but you're not intrested in a conversation about that 5%, you seem like you just want to vent. I'm shutting down the conversation because you're being intellectually lazy. I think people I've butted heads with in the past here will agree this is consistent with my posting style, and not because you're a woman - your offense is not automatically justified simply because of your gender.
But see, here's the thing; If I dress sexy, I'm doing it for me. If I want to feel a certain way, I have wardrobe choices that engender that feeling. But if I'm wearing my sexiest gear; I'm looking like Scorpio incarnate, a devil in a diamante tiara...that still doesn't give someone else the right to make their experience of looking at me, part of my experience of being me. I'm not dressing for the viewer; I don't really give a rat's ass about the viewer. I'm dressing for me.
I want to bold this whole part for its simple elegance.
I also want to admit sheepishly that I'm still working on understanding this on an absolutely fundamental level. I understand it on an academic, even on a social and experiential level, but as a guy, I sometimes feel like I don't fully grok it.
If that makes sense, anyway.
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