Sexism, Gaming, Pax and Fear

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In light of some of the other conversations we've had; I thought folks might like to read this:

What would you do if you weren't afraid; a brief essay by Meagan Marie about some incidents at Pax, the sort of comments female gamers get all the time, and a call to action to women and men that this behavior needs to stop.

I have two comments: sexual harassment is never okay. what was worse to me was the comments from the industry executives about her body and all the sexual talk that she got at work events. Should never happen under any circumstance.

Now when it comes to cosplaying I think if you're wearing sexy costumes (or any costume) you are looking for attention. I think if people stare at a girl (like the girl from the blog) who is very pretty and dressed very sexy (check out some of her costumes) attention just comes with it. I don't know if she's saying "Hey looking at me when I'm dressed this way is okay but just don't come up and be a dick when you talk to me" versus "don't give me any attention just because I'm dressed this way"

I read it very definitely as "don't presume that because I cosplay you can ask me offensive questions". That reporter was way out of line, and frankly, if he'd pulled that with a responsible male nearby, he'd likely have gotten a more physical response. Or, more likely, he'd have backed off pretty damn fast.

As it was, he felt he was justified in asking an offensive question because, well, the women were dressed in costume. They were asking for it, otherwise they'd not be dressed that way. That's out of line.

Ulairi wrote:

I have two comments: sexual harassment is never okay. what was worse to me was the comments from the industry executives about her body and all the sexual talk that she got at work events. Should never happen under any circumstance.

Now when it comes to cosplaying I think if you're wearing sexy costumes (or any costume) you are looking for attention. I think if people stare at a girl (like the girl from the blog) who is very pretty and dressed very sexy (check out some of her costumes) attention just comes with it. I don't know if she's saying "Hey looking at me when I'm dressed this way is okay but just don't come up and be a dick when you talk to me" versus "don't give me any attention just because I'm dressed this way"

Reading the blog, I honestly have no idea how you could be confused about what she was saying. It's obvious that what she's saying is "don't be a dick to me at all," despite all her examples being due to her cosplaying.
I agree that part of cosplaying is wanting to draw attention to yourself (at least it is for me. When I was in my DayZ get-up at PAX, I did want people to notice and comment on it). You want people to pay attention to the neat costume you have or the character you've chosen, but that doesn't automatically mean you want sexual attention as well. Sure, maybe some people want that too, but you should never start with the assumption that they do.

I am glad that the PAX staff handled her complaint so well.

Wouldn't it be up to the women he spoke to to say something about it? What if the ladies laughed about what he said instead, would it still be ok for her to confront the guy? Felicia Day was once asked during a firefly panel if the carpet matched the drapes. The youtube was posted on this forum I believe in the firefly thread. Felicia laughed it off and the comment was found as funny. That comment seems a lot worst than the nerdy guys can't satisfy you comment. Why was the carpet comment ok and this one not. If the ladies were offended why isn't she complaining to them for not standing up for themselves?

Baron Of Hell wrote:

Felicia Day was once asked during a firefly panel if the carpet matched the drapes. The youtube was posted on this forum I believe in the firefly thread. Felicia laughed it off and the comment was found as funny. That comment seems a lot worst than the nerdy guys can't satisfy you comment. Why was the carpet comment ok and this one not.

Ugh, wow, I hadn't heard of that... I challenge the idea that either comment is okay.

Baron Of Hell wrote:

Wouldn't it be up to the women he spoke to to say something about it? What if the ladies laughed about what he said instead, would it still be ok for her to confront the guy? Felicia Day was once asked during a firefly panel if the carpet matched the drapes. The youtube was posted on this forum I believe in the firefly thread. Felicia laughed it off and the comment was found as funny. That comment seems a lot worst than the nerdy guys can't satisfy you comment. Why was the carpet comment ok and this one not. If the ladies were offended why isn't she complaining to them for not standing up for themselves?

Er. Did you read the whole article, or just the start of it? Because that's kind of what the whole thing is about.

Baron Of Hell wrote:

Wouldn't it be up to the women he spoke to to say something about it? What if the ladies laughed about what he said instead, would it still be ok for her to confront the guy? Felicia Day was once asked during a firefly panel if the carpet matched the drapes. The youtube was posted on this forum I believe in the firefly thread. Felicia laughed it off and the comment was found as funny. That comment seems a lot worst than the nerdy guys can't satisfy you comment. Why was the carpet comment ok and this one not. If the ladies were offended why isn't she complaining to them for not standing up for themselves?

The women the guy said the joke to were visibly uncomfortable about it. She also wasn't upset at the women for not standing up for themselves, she was upset at the jerk who asked the question, and at herself after she realized that she never stood up for herself when in a similar situation. In the blog linked in the OP, Meagan shared several stories where she smiled and laughed at some "joke" that she found very offensive because she was afraid to stand up for herself or make a scene. I have to imagine that Felicia did the same thing with the carpet "joke."

How can you watch her reaction and think she was okay with it? Yes, she rolled with it, but she didn't think it was funny or appropriate.

I am not comfortable with you implying that you’d like to have sex with me.

I don't like this implication, following it would mean I could never talk to or look at a woman again. Again a fine line, but she enjoys being attractive so it confuses me. Don't get me wrong, humans have high enough mental facilities and egos to like being attractive without such a large focus on reproduction but evolution didn't build us to ignore it either.

The other two objections she made in that same paragraph could come from other sources so I won't comment. What I don't understand is that objection. I know it's a fine line and it depends on the context of who and when someone implies they'd like to have sex with another. I've been propositioned out of the blue by a guy for some anon sex at a rest stop before and it made me slightly uncomfortable (though not to the degree it discomforts Megan Marie presumably). Why did it make me uncomfortable though? Why does it make her uncomfortable? What mechanism within the brain is responsible for this emotional reaction?

Anyway, cool that she knows about Triumph, that guy was an asshole, and if someone is cosplaying, I do expect them to be in character a little bit, so if the character has something to say related to a sexual matter.

RolandofGilead wrote:
I am not comfortable with you implying that you’d like to have sex with me.

I don't like this implication, following it would mean I could never talk to or look at a woman again. Again a fine line, but she enjoys being attractive so it confuses me. Don't get me wrong, humans have high enough mental facilities and egos to like being attractive without such a large focus on reproduction but evolution didn't build us to ignore it either.

The other two objections she made in that same paragraph could come from other sources so I won't comment. What I don't understand is that objection. I know it's a fine line and it depends on the context of who and when someone implies they'd like to have sex with another. I've been propositioned out of the blue by a guy for some anon sex at a rest stop before and it made me slightly uncomfortable (though not to the degree it discomforts Megan Marie presumably). Why did it make me uncomfortable though? Why does it make her uncomfortable? What mechanism within the brain is responsible for this emotional reaction?

The fact that it's a stranger you do not know at all is reason enough to be uncomfortable about it and not want it. Context matters a hell of a lot too. What she's particularly talking about is people coming up to her either at industry events or conventions. She's usually there as in a professional context, and that sort of behavior sure as hell isn't professional. And honestly, if you cannot look at or talk to a woman without implying you want to have sex with them, then you probably shouldn't look at or talk to a woman again.

Stengah wrote:

I have to imagine that Felicia did the same thing with the carpet "joke."

1. Felicia Day was in a public forum when that happened. I would not be surprised if her gut instinct was to laugh it off and to not make a scene. The video makes it pretty clear she wasn't expecting that level of inappropriateness in a Q&A session. That said, I'm sure she's used to crass questions like that as public figure. Doesn't make it right though.

2. Since when does Felicia Day dictate what is and is not appropriate to ask another person? Everyone has their own boundaries. Just because someone like Felicia Day is "ok" with being asked lewd questions in public doesn't instantly make it acceptable to ask completely random people at a con something similar.

As a cosplayer and a young woman, I can completely understand the blog post. While I personally choose male characters to crossplay as, I've seen many friends run into this problem. And as a staff member at Sakura-Con (our local anime convention), we take sexual harassment of our volunteers very seriously. If anyone is feeling uncomfortable by anyone leering or lingering too long at our booth, it's my job as one of the assistant coordinators to make sure everyone feels safe and comfortable. There is a fine line to be walked, but I think anyone staring excessively or taking inappropriate photos is someone that has crossed the line. But even anything said aloud that could be an innuendo is not something we are okay with. We strive to make our anime convention family-friendly and fun. Conventions in general should be fun and women shouldn't be uncomfortable. They shouldn't have second thoughts about attending because they have concerns about what could be said about them or to them if they choose to cosplay whoever they want.

shoptroll wrote:

2. Since when does Felicia Day dictate what is and is not appropriate to ask another person? Everyone has their own boundaries. Just because someone like Felicia Day is "ok" with being asked lewd questions in public doesn't instantly make it acceptable to ask completely random people at a con something similar.

That's the thing that's boggling my mind right now, this woman made a post listing things she will no longer tolerate from people interacting with her and people are saying "No, I want to continue to say/do those things and you're wrong for asking me to stop."

Stengah wrote:
shoptroll wrote:

2. Since when does Felicia Day dictate what is and is not appropriate to ask another person? Everyone has their own boundaries. Just because someone like Felicia Day is "ok" with being asked lewd questions in public doesn't instantly make it acceptable to ask completely random people at a con something similar.

That's the thing that's boggling my mind right now, this woman made a post listing things she will no longer tolerate from people interacting with her and people are saying "No, I want to continue to say/do those things and you're wrong for asking me to stop."

People are acting like jerks on the internet? I need to head to a YouTube comment thread and hash this out with one of their friendly posters. It can't be right.

LouZiffer wrote:
Stengah wrote:
shoptroll wrote:

2. Since when does Felicia Day dictate what is and is not appropriate to ask another person? Everyone has their own boundaries. Just because someone like Felicia Day is "ok" with being asked lewd questions in public doesn't instantly make it acceptable to ask completely random people at a con something similar.

That's the thing that's boggling my mind right now, this woman made a post listing things she will no longer tolerate from people interacting with her and people are saying "No, I want to continue to say/do those things and you're wrong for asking me to stop."

People are acting like jerks on the internet? I need to head to a YouTube comment thread and hash this out with one of their friendly posters. It can't be right.

Heh, it's more that it's people on GWJ.

RolandofGilead wrote:
I am not comfortable with you implying that you’d like to have sex with me.

I don't like this implication, following it would mean I could never talk to or look at a woman again.

I need much, much more clarification of how these two things are related. Especially since you negate it with the rest of the paragraph you wrote.

My mind is boggled that the Felicia Day video is shown as an example of something good. If a journalist stands up and asks that question, he is fired.

If Felicia responds by asking for the guy to be removed, she risks the IHM's wrath.

That question is why my wife, while she enjoyed PAX with me, would never go alone. She told me that there are too many examples of guys not only being inappropriate, but absolutely no sense that she could trust the crowd to back her up.

Jayhawker wrote:

absolutely no sense that she could trust the crowd to back her up.

It's troublesome that even sites like Rock, Paper, Shotgun which is very pro-women is having trouble with their communtiy acting up lately and making lewd comments towards some of the female freelancers who write for them

What the journo said was over the line, the other anecdotes expressed were even worse - I've personally fired people for saying things like that to people on my team. What's puzzling to me is, if not being objectified and sexualized is important to you, why would you cosplay as a character who is generally portrayed as a sex object? This is not a "they deserved to be talked to that way" post, because they didn't. But if expressions of sexual interest leave you on the verge of tears, it just seems... dissonant, I guess, to dress up like someone who has been viewed as eye candy to look at while you solve physics puzzles (present game excepted from what I hear).

So, it's not a "she deserved it," but rather a, "she was asking for it" post?

NormanTheIntern wrote:

What the journo said was over the line, the other anecdotes expressed were even worse - I've personally fired people for saying things like that to people on my team. What's puzzling to me is, if not being objectified and sexualized is important to you, why would you cosplay as a character who is generally portrayed as a sex object? This is not a "they deserved to be talked to that way" post, because they didn't. But if expressions of sexual interest leave you on the verge of tears, it just seems... dissonant, I guess, to dress up like someone who has been viewed as eye candy to look at while you solve physics puzzles (present game excepted from what I hear).

If you are a cosplayer (I say well aware that I am not one), you should expect to be looked at. That is why you go to cons dressed up, for people to look at your costume and appreciate the work and effort that went into it. However, the assumption that some mouth-breathers make, that because you are dressed up they can make lewd, crude and vulgar sexual advances towards you and be offended if you turn them down, is not part of it.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

What the journo said was over the line, the other anecdotes expressed were even worse - I've personally fired people for saying things like that to people on my team. What's puzzling to me is, if not being objectified and sexualized is important to you, why would you cosplay as a character who is generally portrayed as a sex object? This is not a "they deserved to be talked to that way" post, because they didn't. But if expressions of sexual interest leave you on the verge of tears, it just seems... dissonant, I guess, to dress up like someone who has been viewed as eye candy to look at while you solve physics puzzles (present game excepted from what I hear).

I am not making the connection between looking your sexiest and being asked inappropriate questions.

The difference between saying "Wow! You look really sexy in that outfit. Perhaps we could get together sometime?" and "I bet a man can't please you in bed, but I am willing to try, hotstuff!" is exponential.

Seth wrote:
RolandofGilead wrote:
I am not comfortable with you implying that you’d like to have sex with me.

I don't like this implication, following it would mean I could never talk to or look at a woman again.

I need much, much more clarification of how these two things are related. Especially since you negate it with the rest of the paragraph you wrote.

I don't understand how I negated it. If it helps, I meant talk to or look at in a social situation. For instance, waitress coming to my table is business for her, recreation for me and thus not social. Going to a con, while recreation for me and a second party, would be recreation done together in a communal fashion and thus social.

Since I don't stream my life 24/7, I shall use the following youtube clip to summarize my experience and fears. It's not much of an issue where I work since there are few women and I don't wish to date any of them, but I'm still frightful of the ones that are there. I like my job and don't wish to lose it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuA...
In case you're wondering, that is (almost) real. It's a form of learned helplessness producing a self-fulfilling prophecy. Bad experience in the past makes one hesitant and fearful, which puts out a bad vibe which is readily noticeable and possibly misattributed by an observer.

Back to what I meant though. Women are aesthetically pleasing/I'm heterosexual-those two phrases are basically inseparable in my mind. I'm also very honest. I can't really fathom lying to a woman and saying that I want to be friends when I'm trying to get her naked. I can't claim being platonic from the start because my preferred path is from friend to lover to partner. If I claim platonic at the start and my feelings change I would be lying; I cry and tremble at the thought of being a cad. While I have not confirmed this, women don't believe it when I say that I want a friendship where sex is possible but not the goal. Finally, people are dangerous. Thus at the end of the day, women I could have sex with have higher utility than ones I can't and that puts them below the threshold of risk/reward required to make social contact.

NormanTheIntern wrote:

What the journo said was over the line, the other anecdotes expressed were even worse - I've personally fired people for saying things like that to people on my team. What's puzzling to me is, if not being objectified and sexualized is important to you, why would you cosplay as a character who is generally portrayed as a sex object? This is not a "they deserved to be talked to that way" post, because they didn't. But if expressions of sexual interest leave you on the verge of tears, it just seems... dissonant, I guess, to dress up like someone who has been viewed as eye candy to look at while you solve physics puzzles (present game excepted from what I hear).

I don't believe her post is about what people think or feel, but more about what they allow out of their mouths. It's certainly not too much to ask for these idiots to exercise some self-control.

RolandofGilead wrote:
Seth wrote:
RolandofGilead wrote:
I am not comfortable with you implying that you’d like to have sex with me.

I don't like this implication, following it would mean I could never talk to or look at a woman again.

I need much, much more clarification of how these two things are related. Especially since you negate it with the rest of the paragraph you wrote.

I don't understand how I negated it. If it helps, I meant talk to or look at in a social situation. For instance, waitress coming to my table is business for her, recreation for me and thus not social. Going to a con, while recreation for me and a second party, would be recreation done together in a communal fashion and thus social.

Since I don't stream my life 24/7, I shall use the following youtube clip to summarize my experience and fears. It's not much of an issue where I work since there are few women and I don't wish to date any of them, but I'm still frightful of the ones that are there. I like my job and don't wish to lose it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuA...
In case you're wondering, that is (almost) real. It's a form of learned helplessness producing a self-fulfilling prophecy. Bad experience in the past makes one hesitant and fearful, which puts out a bad vibe which is readily noticeable and possibly misattributed by an observer.

I think you missed what was being satirized in that video. It was making fun of how little HR departments understand what sexual harassment is.

Back to what I meant though. Women are aesthetically pleasing/I'm heterosexual-those two phrases are basically inseparable in my mind. I'm also very honest. I can't really fathom lying to a woman and saying that I want to be friends when I'm trying to get her naked. I can't claim being platonic from the start because my preferred path is from friend to lover to partner. If I claim platonic at the start and my feelings change I would be lying; I cry and tremble at the thought of being a cad. While I have not confirmed this, women don't believe it when I say that I want a friendship where sex is possible but not the goal. Finally, people are dangerous. Thus at the end of the day, women I could have sex with have higher utility than ones I can't and that puts them below the threshold of risk/reward required to make social contact.

This is really, really creepy. Please tell me I am missing the sarcasm.

mudbunny wrote:
NormanTheIntern wrote:

What the journo said was over the line, the other anecdotes expressed were even worse - I've personally fired people for saying things like that to people on my team. What's puzzling to me is, if not being objectified and sexualized is important to you, why would you cosplay as a character who is generally portrayed as a sex object? This is not a "they deserved to be talked to that way" post, because they didn't. But if expressions of sexual interest leave you on the verge of tears, it just seems... dissonant, I guess, to dress up like someone who has been viewed as eye candy to look at while you solve physics puzzles (present game excepted from what I hear).

If you are a cosplayer (I say well aware that I am not one), you should expect to be looked at. That is why you go to cons dressed up, for people to look at your costume and appreciate the work and effort that went into it. However, the assumption that some mouth-breathers make, that because you are dressed up they can make lewd, crude and vulgar sexual advances towards you and be offended if you turn them down, is not part of it.

I don't cosplay either, but it seems like it's one thing to be complimented on your costume and the effort that went into it. Getting "complemented" on your physical appearance is completely different and is usually not what the attention these people are looking for. They are there to express their enthusiasm for their franchise of choice no different than anyone dressing up in a sports jersey or other outfit to support their local team.

EDIT: I'll also add that it seems like some people could benefit from a stern reminder that despite the number of people walking around in costume, Cons are not a giant college Halloween party.

Just in case it's not stated clearly enough in this thread:

* It's perfectly human and OK to think a person is sexually attractive.
* It is never OK or acceptable to force unwelcome advances or comments onto that person. There are no excuses, there are no exceptions. Gender or sexual orientation of either party doesn't matter. Your libido doesn't matter. Setting doesn't matter. Dress style or amount of clothing doesn't matter. It is NOT OK.

I feel for the OP link; I'm glad she thought to speak up, but it's frankly not enough. Everyone else needs to join her objections in a constructive way.

Roland I have to believe you're not trying to say this, but - because I still need more clarification, and please forgive what I can only say is my own incredulity at what I hope is a miscommunication- but are you saying your penis and your mouth are so inextricably tied that you verbalize literally every sexual thought you have?

I mean, lack of control over one's sexual urges is one of the most fundamental fallacies of rape culture. Men are not animals, and should not act as such.

I've never understood how people grow up thinking asking someone if the "carpet matches the drapes" is a social acceptable thing to do(along with the stuff from the blog). I don't want to harp on my upbringing but my parents always had a simple rule: How would you feel if Sister Margret heard you talking. Sister Margret was the Nun that did hosted the kid's Bible study, confirmation classes, etc. It has been a really easy rule for me to live by and not be stupid. I know other people (regardless of religion) probably had something similar. It's not funny it's just rude.

Stengah wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

I have two comments: sexual harassment is never okay. what was worse to me was the comments from the industry executives about her body and all the sexual talk that she got at work events. Should never happen under any circumstance.

Now when it comes to cosplaying I think if you're wearing sexy costumes (or any costume) you are looking for attention. I think if people stare at a girl (like the girl from the blog) who is very pretty and dressed very sexy (check out some of her costumes) attention just comes with it. I don't know if she's saying "Hey looking at me when I'm dressed this way is okay but just don't come up and be a dick when you talk to me" versus "don't give me any attention just because I'm dressed this way"

Reading the blog, I honestly have no idea how you could be confused about what she was saying. It's obvious that what she's saying is "don't be a dick to me at all," despite all her examples being due to her cosplaying.
I agree that part of cosplaying is wanting to draw attention to yourself (at least it is for me. When I was in my DayZ get-up at PAX, I did want people to notice and comment on it). You want people to pay attention to the neat costume you have or the character you've chosen, but that doesn't automatically mean you want sexual attention as well. Sure, maybe some people want that too, but you should never start with the assumption that they do.

I am glad that the PAX staff handled her complaint so well.

I didn't mean the blog inso much forum posts. I think if you wear a sexy costume (or any costume) you're wanting attention. That's the reason you wear costumes. Now, I don't think attention allows people to be rude and make unwanted sexual advances. I was just asking if in general the girls (and I assume it's a problem girls face) think just the attention which I mean as people staring at them, asking for pictures and stuff like that is okay or if they think they shouldn't draw any more attention based on how they dress.

There is a difference between "attention" and "unwanted sexual advances/creepiness".

Being complemented on your portrayal of the character, the workmanship of the costume, or a polite and respectful request to have pictures taken or whatnot that don't go over the line (or imply that they owe you something for the attention) are not only acceptable, but appreciated. This is attention.

Having someone come up and just start expressing their pants-feelings at you in obtrusive or crude ways and expecting you to feel good about that is not appreciated or acceptable. That is unwanted sexual advances.

momgamer wrote:

There is a difference between "attention" and "unwanted sexual advances/creepiness".

Being complemented on your portrayal of the character, the workmanship of the costume, or a polite and respectful request to have pictures taken or whatnot that don't go over the line (or imply that they owe you something for the attention) are not only acceptable, but appreciated. This is attention.

Having someone come up and just start expressing their pants-feelings at you in obtrusive or crude ways and expecting you to feel good about that is not appreciated or acceptable. That is unwanted sexual advances.

That's what I thought. On the one hand it's sad that there needs to be a list of behavior that is "okay" and a list that is "not cool, man" because that shouldn't be needed. Everyone knows what should be okay "Hey Lara Croft Cosplayer, you're costume is really cool and you look really pretty in it!" versus "I bet none of these other losers can satisfy you sexually". But, as someone who is not in tune with the problems that girls face at conventions (mainly because I'm a guy and too shy to talk to anyone in public) reading forums can be confusing because I sometimes feel like people are talking about two different things. But I could be completely wrong.

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