Bioshock Infinite Spoiler Thread

mrwynd wrote:
Spoiler:

'This has already happened' is a recurring message. I think Elizabeth was trapped at the point of her becoming all knowing at the end. When DeWitt-Comstock dies at the end only one Elizabeth remains - the one in the dress.

Yeah, I get that. What I don't get is

Spoiler:

Elizabeth would in no way go to other universes and tell Comstock to make Columbia in the first place. But the more I think about it, it's probably something else, like multiple Bookers/Comstocks having that overlapping memory or whatever which leads to clear visions of the future and of Elizabeth that he interprets as a dream.

I'm hope I'm not the only one that did this (don't read if you haven't beaten the game, you will hate yourself):

Spoiler:

Did anybody else try to get the electro bolt plasmid in Rapture?

iaintgotnopants wrote:

Anybody know how to get in here:

IMAGE(http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/1082262203029071124/3CCD9CEF01502922006662076440FC85E906C380/)

It's to the right of Lady Comstock's tomb.

Spoiler:

You need to light the torches on fire with the flame vigor. There are two - one on either side.

Finished!

Spoiler:

Yeah, the last fight is frustrating. It took me about 5 tries even on medium. It seems that they designed it that way for whatever reason, though. You have to learn the patterns of enemies through trial and error. Also, you have to really work on managing your ammo and who you send the bird after. After I actually beat it, I feel like I could go back to the fight and enjoy it. It was definitely not fun at all the first time through. Very frustrating. I feel like they need to put in a note before you start: "Hey, this is gonna take you a few tries. Just pay attention to how things happen, and you'll get it eventually." It's funny, they made the whole game an escort mission that isn't an actual escort mission, and then the final battle is, wait for it, an ACTUAL ESCORT MISSION! Anyways, whatever.

As to the ending of the story, it was great stuff. All in all, it was a fun ride! I'll be playing it again and going through all the little story connections that I didn't pick up on.

Edit: Oh yeah, it ended up taking me about 14 hours according to Steam, so that seems right about average.

Mere Anarchy wrote:
Spoiler:

You need to light the torches on fire with the flame vigor. There are two - one on either side.

God damn it. I can't believe I didn't notice that. They did that in Bioshock too.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Mere Anarchy wrote:
Spoiler:

You need to light the torches on fire with the flame vigor. There are two - one on either side.

God damn it. I can't believe I didn't notice that. They did that in Bioshock too.

I didn't either, but I didn't really care about trying to get everything. I'll do a pretty complete run at some point.

Another thought: I love knowing exactly why it's called Bioshock: Infinite now.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Mere Anarchy wrote:
Spoiler:

You need to light the torches on fire with the flame vigor. There are two - one on either side.

God damn it. I can't believe I didn't notice that. They did that in Bioshock too.

I seem to recall that there was a pretty useful piece of gear in there, too.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

Another thought: I love knowing exactly why it's called Bioshock: Infinite now.

Spoiler:

It was nice to have an "oh wow" moment on that reveal for me. I had figured out the Booker reveal really early on and the Elizabeth reveal during the Lady Comstock's ghost quest so those weren't as good as they probably could have been. They were still satisfying though.

Mere Anarchy wrote:

I seem to recall that there was a pretty useful piece of gear in there, too.

Gear is at least partially randomized. It's possible that so of the particularly hard to find stuff is hard-coded but from what I saw it's random.

And, honestly, I didn't find most of the gear to be very useful at all. There really aren't enough rails to justify most of the gear being rail focused and all the vigor-based gear seemed to revolve around traps which I rarely used. Pretty much everything I used somehow effected ammo or reloads.

Well, that was certainly something. I don't think all the plot developments and twists in the game are earned, but the overall experience makes up for it.

I will say though, f*ck the Siren! (Mostly gameplay spoilers)

Spoiler:

I was playing on 1999 Mode and it was mostly okay, I was dying at most a handful of times at any given encounter, until I got to this nightmare. She's an enormous bullet sponge with never-ending adds, is uneffected by vigors, and her random movements make her hard to dps down. And if you die, she's back to full health and you're out all your ammo so you might as well restart from the checkpoint. And you have to fight her three times. It probably took me about 10 attempts to beat her the first time and around 5 the next two times.

In the end I found the best strategy was to use Bucking Bronco + Devil's Tears combo on her minions and just burn her down as quickly as possible with gunfire. You have to kill her before you lose control over her adds or they will overwhelm you. It helps to occasionally kill one of them with the Devil's Tears effect so she's forced to resurrect them instead of doing her close range attack. However you have to save most of your ammo for her just to kill her. Ammo was in annoying short supply for the rest of the game from that point on.

The two posts above me are why I probably won't do a 1999 run.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot to mention my favorite thing about the ending!

Spoiler:

C A G E as musical notes! That was incredibly cool!

On the ending:

Spoiler:

I'm definitely going to have to replay it to look for hints about what happened, 'cause that was pretty out of left field. It was extremely well done though, I nearly peed when I showed up to Rapture.

On the end credits:

Spoiler:

Noticed Julian Murdoch in there. Truly he is now immortal. Also, I didn't really get the after the credits sequence. DLC to come?

iaintgotnopants wrote:

And, honestly, I didn't find most of the gear to be very useful at all. There really aren't enough rails to justify most of the gear being rail focused and all the vigor-based gear seemed to revolve around traps which I rarely used. Pretty much everything I used somehow effected ammo or reloads.

This is insane. I went through the whole game not seeing one trap-based gear. What I did get was a bunch of melee-based gears.

Bottle wrote:

On the ending:

Spoiler:

I'm definitely going to have to replay it to look for hints about what happened, 'cause that was pretty out of left field. It was extremely well done though, I nearly peed when I showed up to Rapture.

On the end credits:

Spoiler:

Noticed Julian Murdoch in there. Truly he is now immortal. Also, I didn't really get the after the credits sequence. DLC to come?

On both of your comments:

Spoiler:

I had the ending slightly spoiled for me so that may taint my opinion, but I wouldn't say it's completely out of left field. Examples: Comstock knows you are coming, and seems to know everything about you and your motivations. Slade insists that Comstock is lying about being at Wounded Knew, but remembers you. When you first meet Comstock your nose bleeds.

I interpreted the end credits as a hint that - maybe - the "circle has been unbroken" or Booker has accepted his past or whatever and now the future where he still has the child, essentially undoing the events of the game.

iaintgotnopants wrote:

Gear is at least partially randomized. It's possible that so of the particularly hard to find stuff is hard-coded but from what I saw it's random.

And, honestly, I didn't find most of the gear to be very useful at all. There really aren't enough rails to justify most of the gear being rail focused and all the vigor-based gear seemed to revolve around traps which I rarely used. Pretty much everything I used somehow effected ammo or reloads.

That's too bad. The piece of gear I got there (not sure which body part) gave me bonus Vigor when I killed enemies. Very useful, and it made it possible to use vigor almost continually.

kuddles wrote:
mrwynd wrote:
Spoiler:

'This has already happened' is a recurring message. I think Elizabeth was trapped at the point of her becoming all knowing at the end. When DeWitt-Comstock dies at the end only one Elizabeth remains - the one in the dress.

Yeah, I get that. What I don't get is

Spoiler:

Elizabeth would in no way go to other universes and tell Comstock to make Columbia in the first place. But the more I think about it, it's probably something else, like multiple Bookers/Comstocks having that overlapping memory or whatever which leads to clear visions of the future and of Elizabeth that he interprets as a dream.

Spoiler:

I don't think Elizabeth had any part in the creation of Columbia. That was all Comstock's vision and Lutece's invention. Elizabeth was born and spirited away to Columbia and grows up in the tower with no additional knowledge until the end game when she becomes all lit up and scary.

When Elizabeth strangles DeWitt before becoming Comstock she stops the entire creation of Columbia and that loop in time never existed. What I wonder is what if DeWitt was not convinced Comstock must be strangled before being born, would Elizabeth still go through with it? Elizabeth tries to stop DeWitt from opening the final door. Does she care enough for DeWitt she's willing to let Comstock come into existence?

Did anyone find the guitar?

Spoiler:

I had a moment yesterday afternoon, just after we retrieved the gunsmith's tools, where Elizabeth and I wandered into a little basement hovel where some of the Fink workers live. There was a guitar, and when I clicked on it DeWitt sat down and began to play. Elizabeth went into the most beautiful rendition of The Unbroken Circle and handed an apple to a hungry child which, until then I had not noticed was hiding under the stairs. Just stunning.

TheWanderer wrote:

Did anyone find the guitar?

Spoiler:

I had a moment yesterday afternoon, just after we retrieved the gunsmith's tools, where Elizabeth and I wandered into a little basement hovel where some of the Fink workers live. There was a guitar, and when I clicked on it DeWitt sat down and began to play. Elizabeth went into the most beautiful rendition of The Unbroken Circle and handed an apple to a hungry child which, until then I had not noticed was hiding under the stairs. Just stunning.

Yeah, I experienced that one. Stunning is the word.

My thoughts on the game are below. I have finished it on Hard, and (despite some of the things to follow) I immediately restarted on Easy just to be able to walk through it again to soak it all in.

--The content (theme, characters, story) and aesthetic design are best in class.

--The gameplay swerves between okay and not good. Better than Bioshock 1, but nothing ever felt truly smooth and responsive. Two setpiece/boss fights are truly bad. And there were places where I couldn't tell if the game was glitched or just poorly made.

--I don't like the death mechanic. If you're going to return their health, just let me do it over. If you're going to return their health, don't also take money (sometimes several hundred dollars) from me for the "service." Their system combines the worst of the genre standard and Bioshock's.

--I love RE4 and have played through it many times. Ammo scarcity belongs in survival horror.

--It seems like an early frontrunner for GOTY, but I don't think it's the slamdunk GOTD that some do.

My thoughts on things that are spoilers. This includes full-on ending spoilers.

Spoiler:

--I was right about Elizabeth being DeWitt's daughter, and I was half-right about how he was sent back--I actually thought that future-Elizabeth was going to turn out to be the one who sent him to Columbia, to rescue herself. I sure didn't see the rest of it coming.

--It seems to me that one way to interpret the ending is as a comment on gaming. We all tout these moral choices, individual agency, etc., but what you really end up with is "millions of worlds," or discs/gamers, all of which differ but only along a few limited axes, and we can move from one to the next as they are identical in substance.

--The ending seemed very similar to Bioshock's, despite the talk among reviewers et al that it isn't. It's all about the illusion of control. As Elizabeth says, if she doesn't do something to stop it, DeWitt will keep trying to save her and keep dying. The metaphor for this--and it might be my favorite metaphor in all of gaming--is the series of walkways they are on as they talk. There are many of these, connecting many lighthouses, but each one is a linear path (or corridor, if you will). You can walk the path you're on, or you can drown. As DeWitt does in the end, of course.

--Because these things, the game really, really feels like a remake of (or rather, a second try at) Bioshock to me. Smarter, more mature, better gameplay, but the thematic content is very, very close.

--One way that it feels too similar is in its "protect a little girl" mechanic. I think that Elizabeth looks very young in her face, and I wasn't a fan of her 'showing of' with her new dress toward the end. Elizabeth is by no means helpless, but still, part of me wants to say "not all women need to be protected by violent men" to Irrational.

--Having said that, I will freely admit that I did like Elizabeth quite a lot, and when she is being tortured at the end I was genuinely upset. Those scientists standing next to the switches you have to throw to free her? Those mother****ers got dealt with. And I wholly approved of her tornadoing the rest of the team. I liked the reversal in their relationship, too, when Elizabeth is the one telling DeWitt how things will be.

--I have said in the other thread that the game isn't about representing America in that era; it's about America in our own. And it felt completely true to me, in every way but one. When the interracial couple is brought out at the start (and only on my second time through did I notice the "yellow star" on the guy's jacket), I thought not of outdated anti-miscegenation laws but of struggles today over marriage equality. And the horrible "apes" stuff behind them reminded me of Ron Paul's newsletters, not the late 1800s. One thing that did bother me was the place Vox Populi ended up. I don't like the idea that unionism is secret code for "burn the cities." Of course, Reds really did burn some things down in Europe, so fair is fair. More substantially, I think that the game ended up in a structuralist-type place, equating the violence done by the Haves and the Have-Nots. That's shallow and just intellectually lazy, a high schooler's version of political analysis.

Mere Anarchy wrote:
TheWanderer wrote:

Did anyone find the guitar?

Spoiler:

I had a moment yesterday afternoon, just after we retrieved the gunsmith's tools, where Elizabeth and I wandered into a little basement hovel where some of the Fink workers live. There was a guitar, and when I clicked on it DeWitt sat down and began to play. Elizabeth went into the most beautiful rendition of The Unbroken Circle and handed an apple to a hungry child which, until then I had not noticed was hiding under the stairs. Just stunning.

Yeah, I experienced that one. Stunning is the word.

I didn't but now I want to go back and do it. I imagine this is the song they are practicing during the credits.

CptGlanton wrote:

My thoughts on things that are spoilers. This includes full-on ending spoilers.

Spoiler:

--It seems to me that one way to interpret the ending is as a comment on gaming. We all tout these moral choices, individual agency, etc., but what you really end up with is "millions of worlds," or discs/gamers, all of which differ but only along a few limited axes, and we can move from one to the next as they are identical in substance.

I shortened your spoiler to focus my response:

Spoiler:

To me, the game is not only a comment on the notion of choice and agency within games, but also the notion of choice within storytelling - an infinite number of stories with the same set pieces. The Lutece brother and sister act as analogues of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, characters who are minor in terms of the overall plot of Hamlet, but the center of the plot backstage in Stoppard's play. Not surprisingly, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are often confused for one another, and the Lutuce siblings are really the same person. Hamlet is a tragedy, but Stoppard's play is a comedy. Rosalind and Robert certainly see the plot like a comedy.

I won't argue that DeWitt is Hamlet, although his story does share one central theme within Hamlet - the notion of choice and agency. Some would argue that the inability to make choices are Hamlet's downfall; others argue that it is his virtue.

I can't help but think how many stories since Shakespeare's most important play are essentially derivatives of Hamlet. I also think of how many times the play has been made into a movie - infinite variations with the same set pieces.

And just so we're clear, I'm not arguing that Bioshock Infinite is the Hamlet of video games (or that Metroid Prime is the Citizen Kane of video games. Ha!)

We only have so many stories to tell, but we can vary the details. Then, when you add the notion that there are possibly millions of gamers playing this game with millions of variations in how they approach combat and what motivates them to continue, then I suppose that the title of the game becomes less about branding (although it is that, too), and more a comment on, as you say, choice.

Edit: I suppose we could also talk about the infinite variations in storytelling in terms of the "girl locked in the tower."

Even Forbes has weighed in on Infinite's ending.

Oh yes, there are spoilers.
An attempt to understand Bioshock:Infinite's brilliant and bizarre ending

Mere Anarchy wrote:
CptGlanton wrote:

My thoughts on things that are spoilers. This includes full-on ending spoilers.

Spoiler:

--It seems to me that one way to interpret the ending is as a comment on gaming. We all tout these moral choices, individual agency, etc., but what you really end up with is "millions of worlds," or discs/gamers, all of which differ but only along a few limited axes, and we can move from one to the next as they are identical in substance.

I shortened your spoiler to focus my response:

Spoiler:

I won't argue that DeWitt is Hamlet, although his story does share one central theme within Hamlet - the notion of choice and agency. Some would argue that the inability to make choices are Hamlet's downfall; others argue that it is his virtue.

I shortened your spoiler to focus my response:
Spoiler:

I think that DeWitt is a thug. One who wants to do the right thing in the end, but he is a Pinkerton in technique if not soul (any more, all the evidence is that he used to be). I do think that Elizabeth could be, if not at Hamlet at least Gaming-Hamlet. That's my frustration with the game. Elizabeth could be so interesting, but because PR/Whoever thinks that we will only buy millions of copies of a game that can be boiled down to this game's cover--Dude With A Shotgun--that's the plot that we get.

I'm not arguing that PR/Whoever is wrong in his/her assessment of the buying public, of course. Just bemoaning it.

One thing I forgot to put in my spoilers above:

Spoiler:

When Elizabeth transported you to Rapture, my mouth fell open. One of my favorite gaming moments in years and years.

kaostheory wrote:
Mere Anarchy wrote:
TheWanderer wrote:

Did anyone find the guitar?

Spoiler:

I had a moment yesterday afternoon, just after we retrieved the gunsmith's tools, where Elizabeth and I wandered into a little basement hovel where some of the Fink workers live. There was a guitar, and when I clicked on it DeWitt sat down and began to play. Elizabeth went into the most beautiful rendition of The Unbroken Circle and handed an apple to a hungry child which, until then I had not noticed was hiding under the stairs. Just stunning.

Yeah, I experienced that one. Stunning is the word.

I didn't but now I want to go back and do it. I imagine this is the song they are practicing during the credits.

It is. There is a version by June Carter Cash (I found it on the Deadwood soundtrack) that is even better.

mrwynd wrote:
Spoiler:

I don't think Elizabeth had any part in the creation of Columbia. That was all Comstock's vision and Lutece's invention.

Spoiler:

I'm still not quite sure about it. Things fit together way more nicely if the Elizabeth who becomes a crazy person who destroys New York also goes into other universes to give Comstock the vision. Comstock claims the angel Columbia actually gives him specific instructions (a prophecy): Here is the technology of the future, build a flying city with it, then you will have a child of your own seed who will rain fire down on the sodom below. Crazy Elizabeth actually states something about how she can carry on her mission to do so in other universes since she is now so powerful. I believe that's why the Lutece siblings are so intent on putting a stop to it to begin with.

CptGlanton wrote:
kaostheory wrote:
Mere Anarchy wrote:
TheWanderer wrote:

Did anyone find the guitar?

Spoiler:

I had a moment yesterday afternoon, just after we retrieved the gunsmith's tools, where Elizabeth and I wandered into a little basement hovel where some of the Fink workers live. There was a guitar, and when I clicked on it DeWitt sat down and began to play. Elizabeth went into the most beautiful rendition of The Unbroken Circle and handed an apple to a hungry child which, until then I had not noticed was hiding under the stairs. Just stunning.

Yeah, I experienced that one. Stunning is the word.

I didn't but now I want to go back and do it. I imagine this is the song they are practicing during the credits.

It is. There is a version by June Carter Cash (I found it on the Deadwood soundtrack) that is even better.

I found that part. It was awesome. I even:

Spoiler:

went back after jumping through a tear because I was curious if things had changed in that room. Nothing changed that I could see except that you couldn't pick up the guitar. The boy was still there, though, hiding under the stairs.

CptGlanton wrote:
Spoiler:

I think that DeWitt is a thug. One who wants to do the right thing in the end, but he is a Pinkerton in technique if not soul (any more, all the evidence is that he used to be). I do think that Elizabeth could be, if not at Hamlet at least Gaming-Hamlet. That's my frustration with the game. Elizabeth could be so interesting, but because PR/Whoever thinks that we will only buy millions of copies of a game that can be boiled down to this game's cover--Dude With A Shotgun--that's the plot that we get.

I'm not arguing that PR/Whoever is wrong in his/her assessment of the buying public, of course. Just bemoaning it.

Spoiler:

I agree. In that sense, the game story becomes a bit of a cop-out. There are no real original stories to tell, so why bother? Here comes the thug! I also agree that Elizabeth is the more interesting character, and I'd like to understand her motivations better, but that is the plight of the first-person shooter - a hollow shell of a main character.

kuddles wrote:
Spoiler:

I had the ending slightly spoiled for me so that may taint my opinion, but I wouldn't say it's completely out of left field. Examples: Comstock knows you are coming, and seems to know everything about you and your motivations. Slade insists that Comstock is lying about being at Wounded Knew, but remembers you. When you first meet Comstock your nose bleeds.

Spoiler:

Yeah those are good points, definitely the kinds of things I'm looking forward to digging more deeply into on a second playthrough. I didn't really question Comstock knowing where I was at all times, since I'm used to video games where there are apparently omniscient character yelling at me over radios and loudspeakers. But of course, it pays to be on the lookout for sneaky subversion in a Bioshock game (and I totally wasn't because I was so drawn into the story).

I think I'm going to have to do a second playthrough. Is there any way to make sure you haven't missed any recordings before moving on? I'd like to play it in 1999 mode, too, but does that take away the glint? Those recordings will be a bit harder to find without that. Also, do the recordings you've found stay with you through multiple playthroughs?