What the hell is wrong with Steubenville, OH?

Yonder wrote:

Hmm, it occurs to me that on CNN's part there is probably something else going on that has a much bigger impact than sports culture. This is an extreme example of CNN's (and modern journalism in general) to tell two sides of the story without judging either party.

Who is more at fault, the high school girl who got drunk and was publicly raped? Or the star-athletes that allegedly did the raping on this footage we are going to show you?

We report, you decide!

I think this is very likely. My wife and I watch a lot of CNN. (I can't stand them, but then again I can't find any big news organization that I can stand.) They make a big effort to always show both sides of the story and not show any favoritism. Even to the point where (with stories like this) it is sometimes ridiculous and hurts their reporting.

Just last night they had a special on the Wayne Williams, the 1979 Atlanta serial killer. They repeatedly said "We report, you decide" when referring to whether or not Wayne (who was already found guilty) was guilty. And even all of the evidence they showed indicated that he was guilty, yet they wouldn't flat out say he was guilty. It was really bizarre. I was almost as disgusted with CNN's reporting as I was with Wayne Williams.

It is called the Fairness Doctrine, it was actually an FCC mandate until the 80's, was not enforced since then, formally retired a few years ago.

But it is still a major part of most network and cable S&P.

KingGorilla wrote:

It is called the Fairness Doctrine, it was actually an FCC mandate until the 80's, was not enforced since then, formally retired a few years ago.

But it is still a major part of most network and cable S&P.

Yeah, I understand wanting to be fair to both sides of a story. But sometimes, they end up with absolutely bat-sh*t crazy people for one side who have some absolutely crazy assertions. And then CNN does nothing to call them out on obviously B.S. statement because they can't appear to be "unfair".

jdzappa wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Yonder wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Stay shivgee, my friend.

It's not shocking, but still quite sad to see the level of pity bestowed by CNN on the rapists.

I have no idea what it is about our species/culture that deifies athletes so much. If those two had been in their high school theater club that segment would have had a very different feel.

Very true and very much part of the problem.

It isn't so much, to me, the pity on the rapists part that troubles me most (though it does) as much as it is the complete lack of attention being paid on the plain and simple fact that the system and the community in which they live failed those young men so spectacularly that this behavior was a natural outgrowth of it.

The whole "win at all costs" and "it is good to be a winner" mentality is precisely what leads to immature folks like this honestly believing they live in a world of impunity and entitlement.

Certainly these boys acted like monsters and should be punished for it, but, by most external indications, they were manufactured monsters.

Maybe if these kids had come from dire poverty or had been repeatedly sexually abused themselves I could buy into the whole "manufactured monsters" argument. But unless I missed it appears both boys came from solid middle class homes and of course lived a privileged existence as football stars. We talk a lot about privilege on this forums, and these boys had it in spades. That's why I would have much preferred to see them tried as adults and spend the next 20+ years in prison. Check that - I'd prefer to see them face justice Stannis Baratheon style. Snip snip.

I think trying kids as adults is a waste. I think Paleo's Rabbi's suggestion is the way to go. Once you try them as adults, and put them in jail for 20 years what are you going to do with them? It is going to be difficult to impossible for them to operate in society, to get jobs, and contribute in any real manner. Unless they are actual sociopaths, they are still young enough were something can actually be done.

I also have a problem trying people to young to vote as adults as a strictly legal matter, outside of the moral and practical value of it.

jdzappa wrote:

Maybe if these kids had come from dire poverty or had been repeatedly sexually abused themselves I could buy into the whole "manufactured monsters" argument. But unless I missed it appears both boys came from solid middle class homes and of course lived a privileged existence as football stars. We talk a lot about privilege on this forums, and these boys had it in spades. That's why I would have much preferred to see them tried as adults and spend the next 20+ years in prison. Check that - I'd prefer to see them face justice Stannis Baratheon style. Snip snip.

I see what you're saying, and that's why 'privilege' is such a bad term: it makes it sound like, if not a silver spoon, a very nice piece of flatware in your mouth from the time you are born. The thing is, an upbringing can be rich in wealth and security yet poor in morality and empathy. What they had was an environment--solid middle class, football stars--that taught them there would be no consequences to their actions if they did this.

It's depressing, but I don't think the remarkable thing about these two boys is what they did. What's remarkable is that they got caught and punished for it. If the media coverage looks like The Onion's satire come true, the case looks like a Chappelle Show skit in real life, the one about R.Kelley: we needed pictures and video footage and text messages and a hacker collective to get this thing to a conviction at trial.

It's the culture that gives boys like these the message that they'll get away with behavior like this which is manufacturing them as monsters. The shenanigans that went on with this trial is proof of how f*cked up the environment they were living in really was. Their advantages in life probably only contributed to the effectiveness of that warped environment: how is a kid supposed to figure out that so many solid middle-class adults could be so wrong?

Tanglebones wrote:

Stay shivgee, my friend.

It's not shocking, but still quite sad to see the level of pity bestowed by CNN on the rapists.

More media outlets are joining the pity party:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013...

The tone of the media coverage... They seem to be treating these guys as kids who made "a stupid mistake" instead of the violent criminals they are. I wonder what the tone would be like if this group had decided to beat a drunk guy half to death outside a bar instead of raping a drunk girl. I doubt the media would be so sympathetic. Or maybe they would be. I don't know what's going on anymore.

This is all just so rage inducing. I actually can't focus at work because I'm so mad, so I'm just going to rant here until I feel like I have vented enough to function.

That ABC article mentions that people in Steubenville feel like their image is tarnished by outsiders that "don't know the full story". What the f*ck is the full story? Part A of the story is "girl sexually assaulted without her consent." Unless part B is "haha, just kidding, she gave her consent" then the full f*cking story doesn't matter worth a damn you god awful examples of the worst humanity has to offer.

This isn't a freaking complicated scenario, you don't have to draw a flow chart to handle the complicated moral questions. If you did draw a flow chart it would be one box that said "Is it ok to put things in this girl's vagina without her knowing and agreeing to it?" and the other box would say "no it isn't you despicable and vicious piece of worthless scum".

I don't know what you think happened at this party but these guys weren't trying to land a man on the moon. They were raping a defenseless girl.

"OH HAI PIERS MORGAN. You know how your were talking about how people do ridiculous things when they are drunk, like commit terrible crimes against fellow humans? I know exactly what your are talking about! A week ago I got really drunk on Sunday and badly played some video games. Then I staggered to bed and fell asleep. I totally went to sleep wrong on my hand and when I woke up my thumb really hurt. It still aches a bit when I work with it actually. RIDICULOUS! You know what ridiculous thing I didn't do last Sunday when I got drunk? I DIDN'T RAPE ANYONE YOU BASELESS PRICK!

"While I've got you here Piers, I have a totally unrelated hypothetical. Lets say that you were drunk, like passed out drunk. Lets make two lists, on one side we'll have all of your orifices that it would be "ridiculous" to push things into, and on the other side we'll have all of your orifices where that would classify as "terrible and unforgiveable sexual assault". Take your time Piers, there are no wrong answers here.

"Sorry Piers, that was a lie, like this country's promise of equality is a lie. There are wrong answers you sniveling worm, and those things you're saying on National Television? THOSE ARE THE WRONG ANSWERS."

Lets say I had a daughter. That should be a wonderful thing, but honestly I look around at this country, and the idea just fills me with dread. Because if I had a daughter age 12 or older right now, I feel like I would have to sit down and go through this story with her, and what she needs to learn from it. 1. You always need to keep your guard up, because other people can't be counted on to stand up for you. Sometimes even the people that you really, really think that you can trust. 2. As a woman society inherently doesn't trust or value you, if something does happen, only the most overwhelming physical evidence will prod people into looking into your claims. 3. If you do go forward with seeking justice, you will be hated for it. Many won't believe you, and many of those that do believe you will still blame you for causing the situation. Those are STUPID lessons. But as far as I can tell those are the actual lessons to draw from this experience. I don't want to have to have that conversation, and I'm worried that I wouldn't be able to do it right. What if she doesn't believe me and is one of those few (please tell me it's few, although I witnessed a sexual assault in high school and suspect that it's not that small of a number) for which that lesson really needed to be heeded. What if I overdue it as a paranoid, overbearing father and cause her to disregard me? What if I teach the lesson too effectively, and she becomes paranoid? Or perhaps my warnings that society disrespects women may cause an insecure teenager to disrespect herself.

I know part of my nervousness comes from the fact that, as a man with three brothers and no sisters, I am much more comfortable and knowledgeable about what is required in raising boys, but a big part of it is also that this country seems to be going out of it's way to understand sex and gender in palpably unhealthy ways. The idea that I would need to get really invested in that environment, and act as one of the few actors in that environment responsible for offsetting and counterbalancing the entire rest of the country, is just a frightening one.

It really, really pisses me off. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too much into the gender aspects. That football coach had male victims and there were some similar overtones.

Tkyl wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

It is called the Fairness Doctrine, it was actually an FCC mandate until the 80's, was not enforced since then, formally retired a few years ago.

But it is still a major part of most network and cable S&P.

Yeah, I understand wanting to be fair to both sides of a story. But sometimes, they end up with absolutely bat-sh*t crazy people for one side who have some absolutely crazy assertions. And then CNN does nothing to call them out on obviously B.S. statement because they can't appear to be "unfair".

It goes beyond that, however. If CNN wants to go for the "fair at all costs," then they have opened the door to this exchange:

CNN Anchor: Prof. Jones, you state that due to a slight shift in the gravitational pull of the sun, the Earth has actually become a bit more oval in size. Is that correct?

Prof. Jones: Yes, that is correct. The change is exceptionally minute, and no one but us scientists will actually be able to "see" any changes, but it is there.

CNN Anchor: Thank you, Prof. Jones. And now for another view, we have John Smith of the Flat Earth Society who is here to tell us that the Earth is, in fact, flat and not round or oval. Mr. Smith, thank you for being here today.

...

This is a thing, but it's not in fact related to the Fairness Doctrine - that's a totally different issue. This is just a general failure in reportage, brought on by lax journalistic standards & conflict-shy entertainment divisions running just about every TV news agency.

It's moral cowardice, by faking neutrality through expressing both sides of wherever the cultural/political center resides. Because of a perfect storm of athlete deification and rape culture, that center for this specific case lays so far from reality that it's actually noticeable how skewed the media really is.

On this topic, I cannot recommend Flat Earth News enough.

Earlier I was listening to an NPR segment on this case and the part that astounded me was that they said the two guys in question didn't know that digital penetration was considered rape under the law and that upon further interviews that found that "about half" of the teens in that area also had no idea that act was considered rape. The reporter then went on to say that in essence it is our lack of education on the subject that brough this about. It reminds me of girls from my old highschool that claimed to still be virgins as long as they didn't have vaginal intercourse with male sexual anatomy but everything else was on the table.

Kehama wrote:

Earlier I was listening to an NPR segment on this case and the part that astounded me was that they said the two guys in question didn't know that digital penetration was considered rape under the law and that upon further interviews that found that "about half" of the teens in that area also had no idea that act was considered rape. The reporter then went on to say that in essence it is our lack of education on the subject that brough this about. It reminds me of girls from my old highschool that claimed to still be virgins as long as they didn't have vaginal intercourse with male sexual anatomy but everything else was on the table.

We had a term for them at OU, Baylor Butt bears.

Ohio's attorney general announced that he's not done with Steubenville just yet. He's hauling some 16 people who may know something about the crime--all of whom refused to talk with prosecutors--in front of a grand jury in mid-April. I'm hoping this will result in the three other boys facing charges as well as anyone else who just stood by and watched the girl get raped.

So, the Onion produced this prescient segment two years ago, apparently:

What really makes me furious about this is that when two guys rape a girl they get one to two years. When a guy hacks AT&T servers to troll iPad users he gets more than 3 years. Yeah, that's justice.

Nevin73 wrote:

What really makes me furious about this is that when two guys rape a girl they get one to two years. When a guy hacks AT&T servers to troll iPad users he gets more than 3 years. Yeah, that's justice.

Was the hacker also a minor? If not, apples and oranges (legally, not morally).

Two Steubenville girls arrested for threatening the rape victim on social media:
http://www.wtov9.com/news/news/break...

Tanglebones wrote:

Two Steubenville girls arrested for threatening the rape victim on social media:
http://www.wtov9.com/news/news/break...

Seriously, what the hell.

obirano wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Two Steubenville girls arrested for threatening the rape victim on social media:
http://www.wtov9.com/news/news/break...

Seriously, what the hell.

Have we gotten to the point where we have to evacuate Jane Doe and nuke the site from orbit?

Yonder wrote:
obirano wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Two Steubenville girls arrested for threatening the rape victim on social media:
http://www.wtov9.com/news/news/break...

Seriously, what the hell.

Have we gotten to the point where we have to evacuate Jane Doe and nuke the site from orbit?

It's the only way to be sure.

obirano wrote:
Yonder wrote:
obirano wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Two Steubenville girls arrested for threatening the rape victim on social media:
http://www.wtov9.com/news/news/break...

Seriously, what the hell.

Have we gotten to the point where we have to evacuate Jane Doe and nuke the site from orbit?

It's the only way to be sure.

I've played Fallout. A good hard nuking doesn't remove arseholes from the equation, not even one bit.

IMAGE(http://d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net/image_cache/1357347713800109.jpg)

Mystic Violet wrote:
Raw Story wrote:

“At that point, the report cut to footage of one of the rapists, 17-year-old Trent Mays, apologizing to the victim in court on Sunday.

“I would truly like to apologize to [redacted], her family, my family and the community,” Mays said. “No picture [of the rape] should have been sent around, let alone even taken."

This is another thing that drives me up the wall with this story. Nine times out of ten these miserable little bastards are apologizing for taking the pictures. Even if you actually were such a sadistic individual that you only actually regretted the extensive documentation on the event and not the event itself, wouldn't you still at least pretend to show contrition over sexually assaulting the girl?

Fox News decided to one up their competitors by airing the full name of Jane Doe on national television.

Raw Story wrote:

“At that point, the report cut to footage of one of the rapists, 17-year-old Trent Mays, apologizing to the victim in court on Sunday.

“I would truly like to apologize to [redacted], her family, my family and the community,” Mays said. “No picture [of the rape] should have been sent around, let alone even taken.

Raw Story has redacted the victim’s first name from this report and the video below, but Fox News did not.”

At this point, I'd support a "Get Jane Doe the hell out of dodge" fund.

EDIT:

It was brought to my attention that multiple news organizations aired Jane Doe's name.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...

I can't even comprehend this negligence.

The football coach tried to protect them. I wonder if there's a connection between the importance of sports and protecting rapists.

I'm really surprised that the whole underage drinking angle of this story hasn't gotten more attention. Take alcohol to minors out of this situation and I think it would have happened very differently. I'm convinced that stuff like this is far more widespread than we think, and that most of it goes unreported or is brushed under the rug. It seems that the only reason this instance blew up is that it attracted the attention of the right people.

They may not be aware that the assault is the actual problem here, perhaps having done so many times previously without documenting it and, on those occasions, having been congratulated for it.

Blaming booze seems always seems a particularly tasteless attempt to skirt responsibility and deflect questions that may lead to some very ugly reflection. Might be the tacit victim blaming.

I've never seen booze get someone to do something they weren't otherwise capable of doing.

dejanzie wrote:

Yonder mentioned, while brilliantly channeling Bill Hicks earlier, that the defendants had actually argued that booze was to blame. So yeah, skirting dangerously close to victim blaming there.

And like Yonder I've been all shades of drunk during puberty and beyond, but have never ever come even within a hundred miles of groping, harassing let alone raping a girl.

Seconded, although (and I want to make absolutely, positively, exceedingly clear, I am not even trying to hint at an excuse for the culprits) I've seen a pretty broad range of reactions to being drunk. I know I over-think everything when I'm hammered, but I've known a lot of terrible, terrible drunks.

But booze is like money. To paraphrase Little Brother, it doesn't change you, it just makes you more of what you already are.

Yonder mentioned, while brilliantly channeling Bill Hicks earlier, that the defendants had actually blamed booze. So yeah, skirting dangerously close to victim blaming there.

And like Yonder I've been all shades of drunk during puberty and beyond. The frequency of my lame jokes might have increased to intolerable levels, and on a bad day I might have become annoyingly passive aggressive, but you know what I've never even come within a hundred thousand miles of? Exactly.

edit: edited for less harshness.