Tabletop RPG Catch All

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Burning Wheel is incredibly dense. It has a few differently levels of abstraction for resolving conflicts. Sadly, when we tried to go from very abstract to less abstract in our game, the game fell apart because no one was sure what to do. Not trying to scare anyone away from it, just trying to make you aware of the depth there. Read the rules beforehand and take notes on what you manage to glean from it, a cheat sheet.

I think BW is a great thesis on collaborative storytelling, but its systems are really, really crunchy. I attempted to run it once, and it fell apart when we tried to have a Fight! encounter. I've kept the bits I like -- the BIT system, for example -- and backed away from the rest of it.

TheHipGamer wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Burning Wheel is incredibly dense. It has a few differently levels of abstraction for resolving conflicts. Sadly, when we tried to go from very abstract to less abstract in our game, the game fell apart because no one was sure what to do. Not trying to scare anyone away from it, just trying to make you aware of the depth there. Read the rules beforehand and take notes on what you manage to glean from it, a cheat sheet.

I think BW is a great thesis on collaborative storytelling, but its systems are really, really crunchy. I attempted to run it once, and it fell apart when we tried to have a Fight! encounter. I've kept the bits I like -- the BIT system, for example -- and backed away from the rest of it.

I've had entire campaigns without ever really using the Fight! system. The basic versus tests (opposed rolls, more or less, to use D&D terminology) are enough to handle most minor encounters. And, as I said before, I really like the Duel of Wits system for debates, which shares enough of the logic with Fight! that for most new players that's a good path to ease them into it. Emphasis on the easing.

That said, the Mouse Guard conflict system is basically Duel of Wits and Fight streamlined and made both comprehensible and generally applicable, so it's a vast improvement for most people.

Gremlin wrote:
TheHipGamer wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Burning Wheel is incredibly dense. It has a few differently levels of abstraction for resolving conflicts. Sadly, when we tried to go from very abstract to less abstract in our game, the game fell apart because no one was sure what to do. Not trying to scare anyone away from it, just trying to make you aware of the depth there. Read the rules beforehand and take notes on what you manage to glean from it, a cheat sheet.

I think BW is a great thesis on collaborative storytelling, but its systems are really, really crunchy. I attempted to run it once, and it fell apart when we tried to have a Fight! encounter. I've kept the bits I like -- the BIT system, for example -- and backed away from the rest of it.

I've had entire campaigns without ever really using the Fight! system. The basic versus tests (opposed rolls, more or less, to use D&D terminology) are enough to handle most minor encounters. And, as I said before, I really like the Duel of Wits system for debates, which shares enough of the logic with Fight! that for most new players that's a good path to ease them into it. Emphasis on the easing.

That said, the Mouse Guard conflict system is basically Duel of Wits and Fight streamlined and made both comprehensible and generally applicable, so it's a vast improvement for most people.

I find that, the longer I DM, the less I want mechanics. BRP (and by extension, Call of Cthulhu) are pretty much perfect for me: % chances to do anything, no other complicated rules. Lots of room to tell stories, build atmosphere, and just enough crunch to introduce an element of randomness.

BW is beautiful...until you start wanting to use its mechanics. It's so very good at describing a collaborative approach to roleplaying, and then there's this weird, bolted-on approach to handling conflict that it seems to shake apart under its own weight. Granted, I'm coming in biased; my RPG experience begins in 1988, and tracks through to small-press games in light of that original D&D context. I tend to see systems as being, at best, minor hinderances to good GMing.

Living up to my username, unintentionally!

Free tabletop RPG from Ryan Macklin:
http://mythenderrpg.com/

Looks pretty damn interesting, actually

TheHipGamer wrote:

I find that, the longer I DM, the less I want mechanics. BRP (and by extension, Call of Cthulhu) are pretty much perfect for me: % chances to do anything, no other complicated rules. Lots of room to tell stories, build atmosphere, and just enough crunch to introduce an element of randomness.

Yeah, I find it very difficult to focus on keeping players engaged, reacting to actions, remembering to give good descriptions, and deal with a complex rule system. After running Cinematic Unisystem (which is the lighter version of Unisystem) for Fallout, I found myself wishing for an even more lighter system.

Rubb Ed wrote:

Okay, definitely doing Fiasco tomorrow if we get enough people. 7PM Eastern. If you haven't played, I'll teach you, and we'll do an easier set. If everyone has played, or newbies are feeling adventurous, we'll do the Camp Death set (which has a special rule regarding the dice which may throw newbies off).

Last minute change to my work schedule and I'll have to miss out on this one. Sorry folks, hopefully next time.

Gremlin wrote:

I resemble this progression, which is why I'm excited to try Dungeon World with my regular group. That said, I think that the rules can sometimes be too simple for some things: I'm not really interest in trying a Fiasco campaign, for example. And some players need rules to fall back on when they can't be creative 100% of the time.

Well, unless you're using the rules in American Disasters, there's really no such thing as a Fiasco "campaign"

I've ran one campaign of Burning Empires, which is I think essentially Burning Wheel in space. It was great, but you cannot skip any of the rules or it falls apart. I found it taxing to prepare, because instead of figuring out plot and setting and characters, you need to actually learn the rules. Actually playing the game was great, the pacing and drama was flawless.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
TheHipGamer wrote:

I find that, the longer I DM, the less I want mechanics. BRP (and by extension, Call of Cthulhu) are pretty much perfect for me: % chances to do anything, no other complicated rules. Lots of room to tell stories, build atmosphere, and just enough crunch to introduce an element of randomness.

Yeah, I find it very difficult to focus on keeping players engaged, reacting to actions, remembering to give good descriptions, and deal with a complex rule system. After running Cinematic Unisystem (which is the lighter version of Unisystem) for Fallout, I found myself wishing for an even more lighter system.

I resemble this progression, which is why I'm excited to try Dungeon World with my regular group. That said, I think that the rules can sometimes be too simple for some things: I'm not really interested in trying a Fiasco campaign, for example. And some players need rules to fall back on when they can't be creative 100% of the time.

jlaakso wrote:

I've ran one campaign of Burning Empires, which is I think essentially Burning Wheel in space. It was great, but you cannot skip any of the rules or it falls apart. I found it taxing to prepare, because instead of figuring out plot and setting and characters, you need to actually learn the rules. Actually playing the game was great, the pacing and drama was flawless.

I haven't played Burning Empires, but from my understanding the invasion system is the core metagame that ties everything together, right? I can see how it would require you to absorb all of the rules at once.

Burning Wheel is fairly explicit about it's modular design. There's the first section of the book, helpfully labeled as the hub of the Wheel, with the essential subsystems as spokes (Abilities, Artha, Beliefs). The mini-systems are the rim that attaches onto that. You don't need to be familiar with the rim to start playing (though it makes it way easier to understand the details in character creation). And you can skim over the spokes for the first session, as long as the GM is aware of them. Once you get over the initial hump, I think it's an easy system to learn piece by piece.

Gremlin wrote:
jlaakso wrote:

I've ran one campaign of Burning Empires, which is I think essentially Burning Wheel in space. It was great, but you cannot skip any of the rules or it falls apart. I found it taxing to prepare, because instead of figuring out plot and setting and characters, you need to actually learn the rules. Actually playing the game was great, the pacing and drama was flawless.

I haven't played Burning Empires, but from my understanding the invasion system is the core metagame that ties everything together, right? I can see how it would require you to absorb all of the rules at once.

Burning Wheel is fairly explicit about it's modular design. There's the first section of the book, helpfully labeled as the hub of the Wheel, with the essential subsystems as spokes (Abilities, Artha, Beliefs). The mini-systems are the rim that attaches onto that. You don't need to be familiar with the rim to start playing (though it makes it way easier to understand the details in character creation). And you can skim over the spokes for the first session, as long as the GM is aware of them. Once you get over the initial hump, I think it's an easy system to learn piece by piece.

That said: I play once a month. If I was 14 or even 24 again, and playing weekly, this would work well; with limited time, it's just easier to roll with BRP or Cthulhu Dark or something equally light-handed, and take the fun parts of BW (like BIT) and leave the complicated stuff (Fight!).

I'd totally be down with playing in someone's campaign, however, I can't dedicate the time to make it work for mine.

TheHipGamer wrote:

I'd totally be down with playing in someone's campaign, however, I can't dedicate the time to make it work for mine.

Yeah, I hear you. I think there's sometimes a big difference between games I'm willing to run as a DM and games I'm willing to play in where someone else can do the heavy lifting for the rules. Which category things fall into varies on my mood, how busy I am, etc.

For light prep games, I recommend The Mountain Witch and Fiasco. And, well, you don't actually "run" Fiasco, you play it together. Or any system you know so well you don't have to think about it (World Of Darkness or Call Of Cthulhu for me).

More low-prep suggestions:

I find Apocalypse World and the several derivatives (Monsterhearts, Dungeon World, my own Monster of the Week, etc) great for low-prep gaming as well - it's no accident that my game is one of those derivatives.

30 minutes of pre-game preparation is the most I've needed for any of these, and I find that GMing them is easier than being a player. I think it's because, when you're a player everything depends on you, whereas as GM you are just reacting to what the players do most of the time.

Another good one is 3:16, which combines pretty simple rules and the a prep time of about 2 minutes. It's an Aliens/Starship Troopers style game of space marines killing hostile aliens. It works well in a campaign, too.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

3:16 is subtly subversive behind the scenes, and this becomes more apparent the longer your game goes on. In kind of the same way some say the Starship Troopers movie is satire of the ra-ra-ra-military mentality. As you get promoted, you get more and more f*cked up orders from HQ.

Edit: Well, I remember seeing a list of orders-by-rank when we played that I can't seem to find in the actual game text. Anyway, when you read the actual setting in the game, read it with a critical eye. Then check out the "Levels, FA, NFA and Slots" table.

The orders for different ranks are definitely in there somewhere, you're not just imagining it.

The other thing I noticed was the way characters developed. At the start, you just decide how good you are at the two skills (Fighting Ability and Non-Fighting Ability), and give your self a name and short description. But as you play, you can narrate flashbacks to get out of trouble. Those short flashbacks combined with the missions each trooper survives are just enough to flesh them out.

3:16 is subtly subversive behind the scenes, and this becomes more apparent the longer your game goes on. In kind of the same way some say the Starship Troopers movie is satire of the ra-ra-ra-military mentality. As you get promoted, you get more and more f*cked up orders from HQ.

Edit: Well, I remember seeing a list of orders-by-rank when we played that I can't seem to find in the actual game text. Anyway, when you read the actual setting in the game, read it with a critical eye. Then check out the "Levels, FA, NFA and Slots" table.

Edit 2: Ah, the orders can be found in the Character Sheet pdf in this zip - https://www.box.com/shared/f8s2n34anc

MikeSands: I think the problem is I was looking at an original abridged/draft version of the rules, written for a contest.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

MikeSands: I think the problem is I was looking at an original abridged/draft version of the rules, written for a contest.

Ah! Yes, I think the original was for a 24 hour game contest? Or maybe a few days? In any case... not as much in there as the final version!

MikeSands wrote:

More low-prep suggestions:

I find Apocalypse World and the several derivatives (Monsterhearts, Dungeon World, my own Monster of the Week, etc) great for low-prep gaming as well - it's no accident that my game is one of those derivatives.

Well, as soon as I can get my hands on a print copy of Dungeon World...

3:16 looks pretty awesome. I really need to find a good tabletop group around here.

Gremlin wrote:

Well, as soon as I can get my hands on a print copy of Dungeon World...

Shouldn't be too long - I saw an update from the team, saying they are finishing off the last funder mailouts this week, and I suspect sales to everyone else will follow soon after.

3:16 is cool. We're playing a game much like it, except with miniatures for the fighting, running on Flying Lead (which is an awesome minis system for small units, I'd say the best one out there).

Some advice needed if possible. After watching The World without End and then seeing the Black Death was on last night, I was suddenly hit with the desire to run a medieval game, with some magical elements but not fully blown fantasy, thinking along the lines of Merlin. So anybody know of any systems for this? I don't want to use Burning Wheel because I know my players won't dig it and since I know nothing about the Warhammer, that rules out their system, even though I do really like it.
Any ideas?

MikeSands wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

MikeSands: I think the problem is I was looking at an original abridged/draft version of the rules, written for a contest.

Ah! Yes, I think the original was for a 24 hour game contest? Or maybe a few days? In any case... not as much in there as the final version!

Yup. I should buy a copy.

One of the fun things in 3:16 is coming up with nicknames off the cuff for your cannon fodder NPC soldiers.

onewild wrote:

Some advice needed if possible. After watching The World without End and then seeing the Black Death was on last night, I was suddenly hit with the desire to run a medieval game, with some magical elements but not fully blown fantasy, thinking along the lines of Merlin. So anybody know of any systems for this? I don't want to use Burning Wheel because I know my players won't dig it and since I know nothing about the Warhammer, that rules out their system, even though I do really like it.
Any ideas?

If you're not looking to do a full campaign, you could probably jimmy together a Fiasco playset.

Oh I know for certain they won't do Fiasco, I have tried to sell that already. I was met with "what?" apart from one guy who was all for it.

Sounds like you need Ars Magica. Or Elric!

onewild wrote:

Some advice needed if possible. After watching The World without End and then seeing the Black Death was on last night, I was suddenly hit with the desire to run a medieval game, with some magical elements but not fully blown fantasy, thinking along the lines of Merlin. So anybody know of any systems for this? I don't want to use Burning Wheel because I know my players won't dig it and since I know nothing about the Warhammer, that rules out their system, even though I do really like it.
Any ideas?

GURPs?

Cthulhu Dark Ages

For a good, not over complicated generic system with no big learning curve, I'd like to put in a good word for Mini-Six.