2013 Major League Baseball: World Series- Boston Red Sox vs St. Louis Cardinals

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New Thread for the New Year.

January 9
No one voted into the Hall of Fame

January 18
Salary arbitration figures exchanged

February 4-20
Salary arbitration hearings held (if necessary)

February 12
Voluntary Spring Training report date for pitchers, catchers and injured players

February 15
Voluntary date on which all non-World Baseball Classic position players may be invited to Spring Training

February 20
Mandatory date by which all non-World Baseball Classic players must report

March 2-6, 2013
World Baseball Classic, First Round

I am personally glad no one was voted into the Hall of Fame this year. They are starting to move toward "The Hall of Very Good". How Craig Biggio got votes is beyond me. I understand he has over 3,000 hits, but that's a product of a very long career, where as a true Hall of Famer would do it in his sleep.

If you have to debate it, they don't belong. Do you think anyone had to debate Ruth, Mantle or DiMaggio?

I admit to being indifferent about Biggio as well. I think he's getting bonus points for longevity and a perception that he's a "good guy." That said, the case for him is as follows:

In terms of second basemen, he ranks 4th in hits, 2nd in home runs, and 1st in runs scored. He was also a six-time All-Star and won 4 Gold Gloves. He's also one of less than 30 people to ever reach the 3,000 hits milestone. And he did it all for one team.

My problem with Biggio is that he was good for a long time and very good for a short period of time, but never great. In his 20 seasons, he only batted over .300 four times and in his two best seasons ('97 & '98) he finished just 4th and 5th, respectively, in MVP voting.

EDIT: BTW, it's 67 degrees here today and I'm counting the days until pitchers and catchers report.

Biggio: Really good player for a really long time. If he'd had a slightly longer peak (looking at his numbers, I'd say '94-'99), or even one that was a bit higher, I'd consider him a definite HOFer. As it is, he's right on the edge with guys like Edgar Martinez and Larry Walker.

On the other hand, there's no reason for Bagwell, Raines, Piazza, Bonds, Clemens to not be in the HOF. Debating steroids is a waste of time given that there's a near 100% likelihood that a current HOFer used them. And that completely ignores rampant use of amphetamines by all-time greats. Schilling and Trammel should probably be there as well. And Loften, while on the edge like the guys I mentioned up top, certainly shouldn't have been booted from the ballot after one year.

They are starting to move toward "The Hall of Very Good"

The problem is at this point we have 100+ years of players. It is not going to be easy to "top" any of the stat sheets. I don't care about Biggio but longevity and production in the later years should account for something. Otherwise, we are gonna to have years where no one is good enough. Might as well close the doors now then.

Just shocked, first year since 1960 this has happened.

Stele wrote:

Just shocked, first year since 1960 this has happened.

I blame PEDs. Otherwise you have at least 4 inducted.

karmajay wrote:
They are starting to move toward "The Hall of Very Good"

The problem is at this point we have 100+ years of players. It is not going to be easy to "top" any of the stat sheets. I don't care about Biggio but longevity and production in the later years should account for something. Otherwise, we are gonna to have years where no one is good enough. Might as well close the doors now then. :)

You're right about the foolishness of insisting that players be at or very near the top in multiple statistical categories in order to qualify for the HoF. That will make induction increasingly less common as time goes on.

But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that, regardless of statistical category rankings, a player be considered an elite player in the league and/or at their position for a large percentage of their career. With Biggio, you could argue that while he was very good, he was never elite. And even if you believe he was elite, he certainly wasn't elite for very long.

For me, the Hall of Fame should feature those players that were the very best in the time periods in which they played and compare favorably to the best that have ever played the game—not just aggregators of counting stats over a lengthy career.

B Dog wrote:
karmajay wrote:
They are starting to move toward "The Hall of Very Good"

The problem is at this point we have 100+ years of players. It is not going to be easy to "top" any of the stat sheets. I don't care about Biggio but longevity and production in the later years should account for something. Otherwise, we are gonna to have years where no one is good enough. Might as well close the doors now then. :)

You're right about the foolishness of insisting that players be at or very near the top in multiple statistical categories in order to qualify for the HoF. That will make induction increasingly less common as time goes on.

But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that, regardless of statistical category rankings, a player be considered an elite player in the league and/or at their position for a large percentage of their career. With Biggio, you could argue that while he was very good, he was never elite. And even if you believe he was elite, he certainly wasn't elite for very long.

For me, the Hall of Fame should feature those players that were the very best in the time periods in which they played and compare favorably to the best that have ever played the game—not just aggregators of counting stats over a lengthy career.

I will say this about Biggio, he was a top 3 second baseman in the 90s (Alomar and Sandberg are the other 2, f*ck Jeff Kent 8-)). In the 2000s I would put Cano, Pedroia, and Utley ahead of him, so he would be in the top 5.

Kush15 wrote:

I will say this about Biggio, he was a top 3 second baseman in the 90s (Alomar and Sandberg are the other 2, f*ck Jeff Kent 8-)). In the 2000s I would put Cano, Pedroia, and Utley ahead of him, so he would be in the top 5.

Just looking at offensive numbers here, since defense is still so variable. The best I can say is I don't remember any of these guys ever being referred to as horrible in the field.

Biggio and Pedroia were surprisingly similar through their age 28 seasons (the just-completed season for Pedroia). Pedroia has peaked with a 131 OPS+ while Biggio through that year had put up 138 and 131 seasons. The 131 for Biggio in his age 27 season was the start of his offensive peak. Starting there, he went: 131, 138, 142, 120, 143, 139. If Pedroia sustains his peak (though this was definitely a down year, but even Biggio had that 120 season in there), he could end up being better than Biggio.

Utley had a very similar peak (I'm assuming he's basically done at this point). From his age 26 to 31 seasons, he put up 132, 125, 146, 136, 137, 123. Unfortunately, his total career has been way to short for him to have a remote shot at the HOF.

Like Pedrioa, Cano could end up being better assuming he keeps up his current form. It'll all depend on the length of his peak seasons.

The Hall of Fame has ALWAYS been open to "very good" players, this isn't a shift. Biggio and Piazza belong. Piazza is great, anyway.

Why do you keep saying 95?

Vector wrote:

Why do you keep saying 95?

Because I'm an idiot.

I agree BE. To be honest, I think some people have an unrealistic view of what the HoF is. To me, it's just a place to sore players that were significant contributors to the fabric of the game. Biggio is an easy inductee, to me.

There is always a lot of consternation about the HoF I don't get, though. You have journalists voting, which are really just fans of the game with more exposure than the average. I'm 100% ok with just letting them pick who they want and not whining abut it. Let their guts decide the steroid era athletes and accept it. There is no right or wrong answer.

I have no problem with any of the steroid guys getting in. They played when baseball not only allowed them to cheat, but pretty much encouraged. And while fans can act high minded now, I think it is a farce to think that they didn't know what was up in 98 when McGwire and sosa were going nuts. But it was fun, and people just ignored the fact that baseball didn't test.

Football is mammoth in popularity, and it is drug ridden more than baseball ever was. The only reason baseball became a big deal was that it is far more dependent on statistical records, and Barry Bonds blatantly cheated on his way to erasing an immortal record. As he was approaching Aaron's record, fans then started to freak out. MLB never saw this coming, because those same fans partied in the streets in 98. But there was the beginning of the end, as two blatant cheaters took down Maris' record. That was when folks started to wonder if this was okay.

Now, if the mood in the country now dictates that these guys don't get into the HoF, then that's the breaks. It sure won't affect my life or how much I enjoy baseball going forward. But this is just a glorified Top 10 type list. It's fun to argue about weho's better, but who gets put on the list actually means nothing.

Jayhawker wrote:
Vector wrote:

Why do you keep saying 95?

Because I'm an idiot.

I thought I was missing something. I started watching baseball in 98 so I got really confused.

HoFs are weird. I'm not sure any sport does them right. There's no real point to them other than to increase hype by pointing out that a player was significantly important after the fact. The MLB, NFL, and NHL have problems in that there are players that play small but highly important roles. It's hard to vote in an elite left-handed middle reliever or the best punter ever.

I do think that the way the MLB eliminates players from the ballot is incredibly stupid.

The only real emotion I feel at HoF announcements is happiness when I hear what it means to the players. They destroy their bodies for a few short years and HoFs are a way to help their legacy last longer.

I think that Biggio should have made it.

Put aside the 3000 hits, the multiple All-Star games at different positions, all the rest.

I think that people undersell what it takes to be good enough to start in the major leagues for the 20 years that he spent collecting those hits. That is no small feat in and of itself.

His last 2 seasons were pretty poor, and he arguably shouldn't have been starting at that point. Looking more at his stats, though, I think I was a little hard on him up above. He's got a better case than the 'on-the-edge' candidates like Martinez and Walker.

The Nationals have signed Rafael Soriano for 2 years, $28 million. He'll share the closer role with Drew Storen, I imagine.

Dang, the Nationals look like a powerhouse again. With Strasberg unfettered, Harper with a year of experience under his belt, and a bullpen that includes Soriano, Storen, and Tyler Clippard, they have to be prohibitive favorites in the NL East.

You should add to your dates in the OP: January 24, Braves trade for Justin Upton. As a Braves fan who actually pays attention to their farm system / prospects, my take on the trade and how it sets them up:

Wren has made some terrible deals / signings in the past, but this was a great trade. They gave up one year of Martin Prado, who apparently wasn't going to sign long term, an at best future #3 pitcher in Randall Delgado who is easily replaceable by the depth of Atl's system, an innings eater in Zeke Spruill, and a potential league-average SS in Nick Ahmed who was blocked by Andrelton Simmons anyways.

By trading away Delgado, they are essentially giving the #5 spot in the rotation to their #1 prospect, Julio Teheran, at least until Brandon Beachy returns in mid-season. Then they have their top two pitching prospects outside of Teheran that will be ready soon in JR Graham and Sean Gilmartin, all 3 of whom have higher ceilings than Delgado.

This also buys more time for Evan Gattis, who before the trade for Upton was being considered a potential left field platoon option, to go back to AAA and play catcher full time in case they don't resign Brian McCann next year and their top catching prospect Christian Bethancourt isn't ready yet.

The only downsides I can see is that they don't have a classic leadoff guy in the lineup and this lineup will have a lot of strikeouts. Probably wishful thinking, but I hope GM Frank Wren can somehow dump Dan Uggla and get a speedier second baseman that can hit leadoff and not strike out 200 times a year. Perhaps Houston can be convinced to part ways with Altuve if we throw a couple prospects their way.

This picture of Mr. Met packing the equipment truck for its trip to St. Lucie makes me irrationally happy. Pitchers and catchers report in 7 days!!

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BCRzSYACAAEgb3H.jpg:medium)

You're a Mets fan? I'm sorry.

ukickmydog wrote:

You're a Mets fan? I'm sorry.

Yep. Grew up 10 miles from Shea Stadium. It's in my blood. Nothin' I can do about it.

But thanks for the condolences.

Could be worse, he could be a Cubs fan.

Are there any Cubs fans alive that were around for their last WS win?

Kush15 wrote:

Could be worse, he could be a Cubs fan.

True dat.

Heck, I've been alive for two World Series championships, four pennants, and seven playoff appearances. I consider myself a pretty fortunate baseball fan given the droughts other teams have gone through. Granted, things have been pretty dire since Carlos Beltran swung and missed on Adam Wainwright's curveball in Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS (including two heartbreaking late-season implosions), but I still can't help but get excited every spring.

B Dog wrote:

Granted, things have been pretty dire since Carlos Beltran swung and missed on Adam Wainwright's curveball in Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS (including two heartbreaking late-season implosions), but I still can't help but get excited every spring.

Sorry, but I loved that pitch. And I love Waino.

Kush15 wrote:

Could be worse, he could be a Cubs fan.

But also this.

Haakon7 wrote:
B Dog wrote:

Granted, things have been pretty dire since Carlos Beltran swung and missed on Adam Wainwright's curveball in Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS (including two heartbreaking late-season implosions), but I still can't help but get excited every spring.

Sorry, but I loved that pitch. And I love Waino.

I don't blame you, it was a helluva pitch. Beltran's knees buckled. Poor Carlos took heat from a lot of Mets fans for not even swinging at the pitch, but I always thought that was unfair. A pitch like that just freezes you.

So, yeah, you can love Waino. But Yadier F'n Molina? That's another story.

https://vine.co/v/bnu9vFqgHFO

I'll end up paying a fortune on ebay.

Speaking of Cardinals pitchers, Chris Carpenter is unlikely to pitch in 2013 and may need to retire.

He's still suffering from numbness and pain due to thoracic outlet syndrome and the surgery he had last season, which included removing one of his ribs to reduce pressure on a nerve.

Unfortunate. The poor guy has been plagued by injuries since 2007, yet has pitched lights out when he's been healthy.

He was a bit off his pace this year, as was Waino. Shame about Carp, and it does mean we're struggling for starters for about the twentieth year in a row. (I kid. Sort of.)

What's wrong with Yadi? He's probably the best defensive catcher in baseball!

Haakon7 wrote:

What's wrong with Yadi? He's probably the best defensive catcher in baseball! :)

He hit a home run I wasn't particularly fond of.

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