Boy Scouts reconsidering policy against gay membership

Valmorian wrote:
nel e nel wrote:

No disrespect intended, but have you or someone you know had a negative experience with BSA?

How many people have negative experiences with Chick-fil-A? I'd suspect that the vast majority of their customers were no less satisfied than they were with any other fast food chain (and indeed, they might even be better than average, I have no idea). Does that have any impact on their anti-gay policies and decisions people make to support them in light of that knowledge?

Many times when folks are as passionate in their objections as Dan has been here, it's a result of a personal experience. Sometimes it's because they just feel strongly about it, as Dan has explained.

I was just being curious, not making any judgement on the validity of anyone's objections.

If you're an atheist why would you want to be in Scouts?

Yeah, because clearly, all you do is march around reciting psalms.

I was an atheist. I was a Scout. I thought I was a pretty darn good one, and felt that I was a strong asset to the local troop. Our troop strongly de-emphasized any religious aspects, seeing them as largely archaic. Service to others is good for you with or without belief in anything supernatural.

There were a lot of troops that felt that way, once, and when the anti-atheist crackdown started, they lost a heck of Scouts, at least in my area. Not all of them were atheist, of course; many of them were religious, but couldn't stomach the hate and intolerance. We were supposed to be inclusive, not exclusive, and if we truly don't care what you worship, then we don't care if you don't worship at all. That's not necessary or required to be an outstanding Scout.

I also knew a number of gay Scouts, although I didn't know they were gay at the time, and I'll tell you what: our council wouldn't have run nearly as well without them. They gave more of themselves than almost anyone else I knew. I'll put those atheist, homosexual scouts right up with the very best of the straight religious ones. They cared, about people in general, and their troops, and Scouting, and while there were certainly plenty of straights that also cared, they usually weren't the ones in there getting sh*t done, getting the plans laid, the organization done, and the logistics handled.

The atheist gays were the ones who showed up, and made things work, and Scouting spit in their faces.

Scouting like a lot of organizations, has a lot of different styles. There are troops and councils that barely have any religious component and there are church based groups that carry a heavy religious component. Trying to fit them all in one jar is silly.

I've been a Scout leader for 10 years now and I've never asked anyone about their sexual preference or religion. As far as I can recall, no one has asked me about mine.

Wow, we went from:

Bear wrote:

If you're an atheist why would you want to be in Scouts?

to:

Bear wrote:

Scouting like a lot of organizations, has a lot of different styles. There are troops and councils that barely have any religious component and there are church based groups that carry a heavy religious component. Trying to fit them all in one jar is silly.
I've been a Scout leader for 10 years now and I've never asked anyone about their sexual preference or religion. As far as I can recall, no one has asked me about mine.

That's impressive cognitive dissonance, there. You've determined that Scouting Is Good, and then you're willing to argue almost exactly opposing positions on different days in support of it.

Scouting is not always good. Sometimes, Scouting shoves its collective head up its collective ass. This is one of those times.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell is not good enough. I had gay friends that were absolutely central to our Council's functioning, and Scouting was more than happy to take advantage of their good natures and hard work as long as they were dishonest about themselves. They belonged in Scouting a heck of a lot more than the Mormons did... all those guys ever did was trash our summer camp, requiring us to spend several days of our yearly week-long work camp just to fix all the damage, and then trashed our organization, telling the guys who did all the work that they weren't welcome.

IMAGE(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0wp980bq21r9mf6io1_500.png)

Malor wrote:

That's impressive cognitive dissonance, there. You've determined that Scouting Is Good, and then you're willing to argue almost exactly opposing positions on different days in support of it.

Scouting is not always good. Sometimes, Scouting shoves its collective head up its collective ass. This is one of those times.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell is not good enough. I had gay friends that were absolutely central to our Council's functioning, and Scouting was more than happy to take advantage of their good natures and hard work as long as they were dishonest about themselves. They belonged in Scouting a heck of a lot more than the Mormons did... all those guys ever did was trash our summer camp, requiring us to spend several days of our yearly week-long work camp just to fix all the damage, and then trashed our organization, telling the guys who did all the work that they weren't welcome.

Actually no. If you're an atheist you wouldn't join a church because they have awesome bingo and great picnics. Would you join BSA, knowing that they have "God" embedded in the program because you wanted to camp and start fires?

I won't defend BSA's policy on gays because I think it's indefensible. That's also the reason we chose to ignore it. Still, there's a lot of good to come out of Scouting for young men.

FWIW, it's also believe it's far easier and effective for me to criticize their policies as a leader volunteering my time. I can tell you this, from the council meetings I've attended over the last several years, there is a new generation of Scout leaders coming up. I wouldn't be surprised to hear a lot of changes coming although I think the religious component might be the last to fall.

Bear wrote:

If you're an atheist you wouldn't join a church because they have awesome bingo and great picnics. Would you join BSA, knowing that they have "God" embedded in the program because you wanted to camp and start fires?

Yeah, why would a patriotic atheist with an interest in sportsmanship, survival, and community want to be a part of the most official, government-sanctioned organizatioin designed for youths that promotes community, sportsmanship, survival readiness, and service to others?

The belief part of the BSA is, to be completely blunt, asinine and stupid at this point. It is needlessly exclusionary and runs counter to almost everything the BSA stands for. It was also probably put into the BSA for the same reason that the "god" bullsh*t was put into the US Pledge of Allegiance.

*checks into BSA history*

Well, I was wrong on that count. Different times.

However, gotta love how the god thing was added to the BSA by their second leader, not by their founding leadership: "Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God" was added under pressure by James West as article III of the Scouts' constitution.

So yeah, the official statement of the Boy Scouts is that unless you recognize your obligation to His Great Noodliness, you cannot be one of the best citizens of the US. So they don't want filthy atheists to be part of their Glorious Rac-- err, Citizenry. Sorry, they stopped segregating minorities in the 40's, ironically at the insistence of West.

Farscry wrote:

However, gotta love how the god thing was added to the BSA by their second leader, not by their founding leadership: "Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God" was added under pressure by James West as article III of the Scouts' constitution.

So yeah, the official statement of the Boy Scouts is that unless you recognize your obligation to His Great Noodliness, you cannot be one of the best citizens of the US. So they don't want filthy atheists to be part of their Glorious Rac-- err, Citizenry. Sorry, they stopped segregating minorities in the 40's, ironically at the insistence of West.

I'm not sure that mocking people who may be religious the best way to advocate for the rights of Atheists.

There's really two entities at issue here. The BSA as we know now know it it was brought to the US. by William Boyce in 1910 and is based on the program establish by Lord Baden Powell. If you look at some of his quotes it's pretty clear that the origins of Scouting were absolutely religiously based.

"The Scout, in his promise, undertakes to do his duty to his king and country only in the second place; his first duty is to God. It is with this idea before us and recognizing that God is the one Father of us all, that we Scouts count ourselves a brotherhood despite the difference among us of country, creed, or class. We realize that in addition to the interests of our particular country, there is a higher mission before us, namely the promotion of the Kingdom of God; That is, the rule of Peace and Goodwill on earth. In the Scouts each form of religion is respected and its active practice encouraged and through the spread of our brotherhood in all countries, we have the opportunity in developing the spirit of mutual good will and understanding.

"There is no religious "side" of the movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realization and service of God.

"Let us, therefore, in training our Scouts, keep the higher aims in the forefront, not let ourselves get too absorbed in the steps. Don't let the technical outweigh the moral. Field efficiency, back woodsmanship, camping, hiking, Good Turns, jamboree comradeship are all means, not the end. The end is CHARACTER with a purpose.

"Our objective in the Scouting movement is to give such help as we can in bringing about God's Kingdom on earth by including among youth the spirit and the daily practice in their lives of unselfish goodwill and cooperation."

Bear wrote:

I'm not sure that mocking people who may be religious the best way to advocate for the rights of Atheists.

You are correct if my intent is to convince someone who agrees with the Scouts. However, when the Scouts' constitution unequivocally states that atheists are incapable of being anything but lesser citizens than theists, then their attitude is offensive and wrong-headed enough that I'm not liable to change their mind anyway, so I'll content myself with mockery.

Bear wrote:

There's really two entities at issue here. The BSA as we know now know it it was brought to the US. by William Boyce in 1910 and is based on the program establish by Lord Baden Powell. If you look at some of his quotes it's pretty clear that the origins of Scouting were absolutely religiously based.

Sure, the origins were religiously based. But that doesn't mean that the organization should stay that way. Hence my jab about how the Scouts - for decades - practiced segregation with regard to minorities.

I've been a cub scout leader for the last 13 years, both in a public school sponsored pack and a church sponsored one.

What is stopping patriotic atheists from starting their own "government-sanctioned organizatioin designed for youths that promotes community, sportsmanship, survival readiness, and service to others?" as Farscry put it? Isn't there room for both?

MacBrave wrote:

I've been a cub scout leader for the last 13 years, both in a public school sponsored pack and a church sponsored one.

What is stopping patriotic atheists from starting their own "government-sanctioned organizatioin designed for youths that promotes community, sportsmanship, survival readiness, and service to others?" as Farscry put it? Isn't there room for both?

Well, the First Amendment is one issue at play here (at least, in terms of the banning atheists portion of current BSA policy). The Boy Scouts have received government support, and this makes their discriminatory stance a problematic one.

Among other support, 10 USC § 2554 directs the DoD to assist with transportation, equipment, logistics, and location for Boy Scout Jamborees.

If the Boy Scouts want to be a private organization and have a religious test for membership, they need to forfeit all government support, and succeed or fail as a private organization.

[Edit to add: former Cub Scout, dropped out of scouting because the local Boy Scout troop was a bunch of rich, entitled jerks who I was totally uninterested in spending time with. Had super-positive experiences as a Cub Scout, though.]

Honestly? Not really. Don't forget the stories people have shared here about being shunned by their neighbors for not hiding the fact that they're non-believers. So first you have this problem of finding enough people willing to put their [em]kids[/em] in that position to actually have an organization that has a reason to bother meeting up. Then you have to deal with the sh*t-storm that hits that organization when they want to use the activity room at school after hours. (Hint: If atheists aren't invited to neighborhood parties, they're not acceptable for using school facilities, either.) Then the atheist scouts have to find campgrounds and stuff that they can visit—which aren't already in use by other groups for years and years, and which will accept them, etc. etc.

And finally, why should these two groups be separated? Does it make any sense at all to promote the idea that atheists and non-atheists must not mix? I mean, WTF?

Personally, I'd [em]want[/em] my kid to meet other kids from religious backgrounds, because, well, it's important to know about different people from different backgrounds. How's that going to happen if I have to send them to Atheist Scouts to avoid making a false oath?

Hypatian wrote:

Honestly? Not really. Don't forget the stories people have shared here about being shunned by their neighbors for not hiding the fact that they're non-believers. So first you have this problem of finding enough people willing to put their [em]kids[/em] in that position to actually have an organization that has a reason to bother meeting up. Then you have to deal with the sh*t-storm that hits that organization when they want to use the activity room at school after hours. (Hint: If atheists aren't invited to neighborhood parties, they're not acceptable for using school facilities, either.) Then the atheist scouts have to find campgrounds and stuff that they can visit—which aren't already in use by other groups for years and years, and which will accept them, etc. etc.

And finally, why should these two groups be separated? Does it make any sense at all to promote the idea that atheists and non-atheists must not mix? I mean, WTF?

Personally, I'd [em]want[/em] my kid to meet other kids from religious backgrounds, because, well, it's important to know about different people from different backgrounds. How's that going to happen if I have to send them to Atheist Scouts to avoid making a false oath?

Of course, there's also this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Sco...

The federal incorporation was originally construed primarily as an honor, however it does grant the chartered organization some special privileges and rights, including freedom from antitrust and monopoly regulation, and complete control over the organization's symbols and insignia. As example, outside of the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, no other youth organizations may use the term "scouts" or "scouting" in their name.

Aiggh. Did not know that.

Hypatian wrote:

And finally, why should these two groups be separated? Does it make any sense at all to promote the idea that atheists and non-atheists must not mix? I mean, WTF?

Personally, I'd [em]want[/em] my kid to meet other kids from religious backgrounds, because, well, it's important to know about different people from different backgrounds. How's that going to happen if I have to send them to Atheist Scouts to avoid making a false oath?

Hypatian gets it.

Honestly, the thing that concerns me is that an organization may/is/will be lauded for taking the extremely long way around to the right decision.

At the risk of being a troll, I am trying hard not to say "f*ck the boy scouts". Because I really want to.

There is CampFire but it's a regional thing, I think. It certainly doesn't have the same brand recognition as BSA but it is a well-established alternative.

Thankfully Girl Scouts got out in front of this issue and avoided most of these problems.

You can be apart of the future. If you want to leave those who are stuck in the past and craft a brighter, more inclusive future, then check out this article. http://blog.makezine.com/2012/03/02/...

clover wrote:

There is CampFire but it's a regional thing, I think. It certainly doesn't have the same brand recognition as BSA but it is a well-established alternative.

Thankfully Girl Scouts got out in front of this issue and avoided most of these problems.

I came across the following when reading up on the history of the UUA & BSA. The UUA isn't officially affiliated with any scout-like programs, but lists these alternatives on their site

Camp Fire USA
Founded in 1910, Camp Fire USA builds caring, confident youth and future leaders through leadership development in an inclusive community, welcoming children, youth and adults regardless of race, religion, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity.

Navigators USA
Navigators USA mission is to introduce boys and girls ages 7-18 to the great outdoors through camping, hiking, skiing, canoeing, rafting and other adventure activities, meet weekly to learn and practice wilderness skills and safety procedures, participate in group games, sports and community service, take youth on trips outside the city once a month during the school year, and help them get into summer camp programs.

]Scouting for All
Scouting for All is a movement started by Steven Cozza when he was a 12-year-old scout. It promotes the idea that boy scouting should be open to all boys, without exclusion of gay youth and adults. The mission of Scouting For All, a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization, is to advocate on behalf of its members and supporters for the restoration of the traditionally unbiased values of Scouting as expressed and embodied in the Scout Oath & the Scout Law, and to influence the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) to serve and include as participating members ALL youth and adult leaders, regardless of their spiritual belief, gender, or sexual orientation.

SpiralScouts
SpiralScouts International is a program for girls and boys of all faiths working, growing and learning together. Making its public debut in February of 2001, SpiralScouts International has grown into an expanded program available to anyone world wide. SpiralScouts is based on the idea of children and parents of both genders working together. The program encourages girls and boys to learn, play, and work together under the direction of leaders of both genders as a way of showing by example that both men and women are capable and cooperative leaders.

Dimmerswitch wrote:

If the Boy Scouts want to be a private organization and have a religious test for membership, they need to forfeit all government support, and succeed or fail as a private organization.

I'm all for that.

The primary reason the military provides that support is because they believe it is a good recruiting tool.

I'd much rather the BSA drop the needless provisos than splinter off into further schismatic groups--especially since I was blithely unaware of any faith litmuses while I was a Scout.

Actually no. If you're an atheist you wouldn't join a church because they have awesome bingo and great picnics. Would you join BSA, knowing that they have "God" embedded in the program because you wanted to camp and start fires?

In the case of Scouting, I certainly would. I was a good Scout, and helped a lot. And my contributions were quite small in comparison to some gay atheists I knew.

Scouting is not about religion. It just isn't. The Mormons say it is, but the Mormons are wrong.

Malor wrote:

Scouting is not about religion. It just isn't. The Mormons say it is, but the Mormons are wrong.

Does God (note I'm using the word 'God' as a generic term for whatever deity you may believe in) have a place in scouting?

Some quotes from the founder of the scouting movement, Robert Baden-Powell:

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion....Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour." - (Scouting For Boys, 1908)

"The atheists....maintain that a religion that has to be learnt from books written by men cannot be a true one. But they don't seem to see that besides printed books....God has given us as one step the great Book of Nature to read; and they cannot say that there is untruth there - the facts stand before them....I do not suggest Nature Study as a form of worship or as a substitute for religion, but I advocate the understanding of Nature as a step, in certain cases, towards gaining religion." - (Rovering To Success, 1930)

"Development of outlook naturally begins with a respect for God, which we may best term "Reverence. Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes. There may be many difficulties relating to the definition of the religious training in our Movement where so many different denominations exist, and the details of the expression of duty to God have, therefore, to be left largely in the hands of the local authority. But there is no difficulty at all in suggesting the line to take on the human side, since direct duty to one's neighbour is implied in almost every form of belief."(Aids to Scoutmastership, 1919)

MacBrave wrote:
Malor wrote:

Scouting is not about religion. It just isn't. The Mormons say it is, but the Mormons are wrong.

Does God (note I'm using the word 'God' as a generic term for whatever deity you may believe in) have a place in scouting?

Sure. But does God need to be a requirement for scouting? Well, the ignorance and disgusting broad-brush statements the BSA founder made towards atheists is a solid argument against that.

And if you're wondering my interest in this, I was a scout when I was growing up, though when we moved around the time I started high school due to family issues I wasn't able to join a local troop in my new hometown.

I had always figured that if I ever have kids (which is highly unlikely at this point :P) I would very likely want them to join the girl/boy scouts, but over recent years became highly disillusioned with the BSA.

I don't really have a horse in his race, but if the founder of the organization explicitly required a deity in scouting, i would say the question "does a deity have to be a requirement for the BSA" to be pretty incontrovertibly answered.

Of course, organizations can and do change. Mothers against Drunk Driving is a horrifying, Prohibitionist disaster compared to what Candy Lightner envisioned. So if MADD can evolve to become evil, then the BSA can evolve to become more open.

Seth wrote:

Of course, organizations can and do change.

Yeah, that's kind of the point I've been making.

It takes my brain awhile to put things together sometimes.

Hey, me too, so I totally understand!

I've learned that a little seasoning really helps with the flavor of my foot.

Baden Powell also stated that his central purpose for starting the Scouting movement was to help boys become better men. Let that continue to be its core value, all else being secondary. Granted, it was founded over a century ago and some traits are a product of its time. That much can be understood. But there's no excuse for clinging to the idea that 'you can't be much good without religion' or that homosexuals are flawed and dangerous. Those values will not help my son become a better man.

I spoke with another Scouting dad on this. His son belongs to another church sponsored Pack/Troop. Their church is considering pulling their sponsorship if the BSA allows homosexuals to join. Which I think is petty, but it's their dime. It's unfortunate that this generation of Scouts are caught in the middle of this but it's a time of reckoning and hopefully a time of revolution for Scouting. The brand can't have it both ways. Either they modernize or they fade away.