Boy Scouts reconsidering policy against gay membership

nel e nel wrote:
Stengah wrote:
Bear wrote:
Stengah wrote:
Scout Oath wrote:

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

God is in the oath, so we'd be lying every time we said it.
It may be a non-issue in your specific troop, which is great, but it's a major issue for the organization.

You are correct, it is in the oath but there is no requirement that you worship any particular God. In fact, that point was told to me by a Rabbi when I did my SM training. I believe his comment was "worship something, worship anything, just believe in something".

You seem to be missing the point. The problem isn't the thing being worshiped, it's the worshiping of it. It's an inherently religious requirement. By having it in the oath, it requires the non-religious to lie every time they speak it, and I'm pretty sure dishonesty isn't one of the things you want to teach your scouts.

It's possible to believe in a higher power and not belong to any religion.

And also to want to do scout-y things and not believe in a higher power

Stengah wrote:
Bear wrote:
Stengah wrote:
Scout Oath wrote:

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

God is in the oath, so we'd be lying every time we said it.
It may be a non-issue in your specific troop, which is great, but it's a major issue for the organization.

You are correct, it is in the oath but there is no requirement that you worship any particular God. In fact, that point was told to me by a Rabbi when I did my SM training. I believe his comment was "worship something, worship anything, just believe in something".

You seem to be missing the point. The problem isn't the thing being worshiped, it's the worshiping of it. It's an inherently religious requirement. By having it in the oath, it requires the non-religious to lie every time they speak it, and I'm pretty sure dishonesty isn't one of the things you want to teach your scouts.

It's possible to believe in a higher power and not belong to any religion.

Is it possible to be an American and an athiest? Not according to the Pledge of Allegiance. As Bear said, religion screening is not commonplace in Scouts, unless it's some sort of wack-a-doo troop. My troop was based out of a Catholic middle school, and I wasn't Catholic, and it was never brought up once.

Tanglebones wrote:

And also to want to do scout-y things and not believe in a higher power

Well sure. And if it bothers someone that much, they can just omit that part of the oath. Almost 100% of the time it's recited (you're required to memorize & recite it for the first rank you earn), it's in a group setting, so chances are folks won't hear you omit it.

It's also possible to belong to a religion and not believe in any higher power. And to not belong to a religion and to not believe in any higher power.

So scouting is only for those who believe in an entity that can reasonably be referred to as "God"?

With regard to the pledge of allegiance: I always had a problem with that when I was a kid in a public elementary school. And yeah, it always made me feel icky to be expected to say those words. So what did I do? I didn't say them. And yes, I got in trouble for it. Great lesson there: "Lie about believing in God, or you will be punished."

nel e nel wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

And also to want to do scout-y things and not believe in a higher power

Well sure. And if it bothers someone that much, they can just omit that part of the oath. Almost 100% of the time it's recited (you're required to memorize & recite it for the first rank you earn), it's in a group setting, so chances are folks won't hear you omit it.

Though one of the major tenets of scouting, as I understand it, is honesty - both external and being truthful to oneself. Also, the god bits of the Pledge of Allegiance are a very recent addition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_...

I am pretty sure that to be "all inclusive" of people, be it a school, or the scouts, having to be different on the sly flies in the face of that message. Just mumble to yourself, is not being inclusive or tolerant. But it is a great lesson for the future.

Religious people want to shout from the rooftops, and will say the first amendment protects that right. Add they are correct. But they want anyone else to whisper their beliefs, because the first amendment only applies to the Babby Jeezus. Atheists, Muslims, Gays should just keep quiet.

Tanglebones wrote:
nel e nel wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

And also to want to do scout-y things and not believe in a higher power

Well sure. And if it bothers someone that much, they can just omit that part of the oath. Almost 100% of the time it's recited (you're required to memorize & recite it for the first rank you earn), it's in a group setting, so chances are folks won't hear you omit it.

Though one of the major tenets of scouting, as I understand it, is honesty - both external and being truthful to oneself.

Yeah, it's definitely a situation of cognitive dissonance going on there, but if the BSA were being equally honest with themselves, they would realize that 'morally straight' actually means not lying/stealing/etc. and that it most likely does not pertain to sexual orientation.

Ultimately, they are a privately funded organization that can set whatever membership requirements they want - regardless of how ignorant they may be. Which is one of the many reasons I'm no longer involved with them, even though I'm an Eagle scout, and will be very wary of signing my son up, even though they have great youth development and recreation activities.

You know, maybe the KKK will open a local branch and help kids build skills in camping, enjoying the outdoors, building easily-flammable crosses, stuff like that. I mean, sure, they're a discriminatory organization and all, but camping!

/overthetop

Seriously, f*ck the Boy Scouts. Bigots who do some good things are still bigots, and they can kiss my atheist ass.

KingGorilla wrote:

I am pretty sure that to be "all inclusive" of people, be it a school, or the scouts, having to be different on the sly flies in the face of that message. Just mumble to yourself, is not being inclusive or tolerant. But it is a great lesson for the future.

Religious people want to shout from the rooftops, and will say the first amendment protects that right. Add they are correct. But they want anyone else to whisper their beliefs, because the first amendment only applies to the Babby Jeezus. Atheists, Muslims, Gays should just keep quiet.

Yeah, but Scouts is a bit of an anomaly as there are charters all across the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

Last time I checked, Egypt and Libya were not predominantly Christian cultures. ;p

I will agree with Malor though, that the Mormon troops had their own special breed of crazy going on.

nel e nel wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
nel e nel wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

And also to want to do scout-y things and not believe in a higher power

Well sure. And if it bothers someone that much, they can just omit that part of the oath. Almost 100% of the time it's recited (you're required to memorize & recite it for the first rank you earn), it's in a group setting, so chances are folks won't hear you omit it.

Though one of the major tenets of scouting, as I understand it, is honesty - both external and being truthful to oneself.

Yeah, it's definitely a situation of cognitive dissonance going on there, but if the BSA were being equally honest with themselves, they would realize that 'morally straight' actually means not lying/stealing/etc. and that it most likely does not pertain to sexual orientation.

Ultimately, they are a privately funded organization that can set whatever membership requirements they want - regardless of how ignorant they may be. Which is one of the many reasons I'm no longer involved with them, even though I'm an Eagle scout, and will be very wary of signing my son up, even though they have great youth development and recreation activities.

I'd be ok with that if they didn't have a special Federal charter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Sco...

Yeah, that is over the top, Mr. Godwin.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

Seriously, f*ck the Boy Scouts. Bigots who do some good things are still bigots, and they can kiss my atheist ass.

But that's kinda my point, if you think they are a bunch of bigots, then why do you care what the f*ck they do? They aren't lynching minorities, curing homosexuals, burning down abortion clinics or shoving their doctrine down non-believers throats.

Tanglebones wrote:

I'd be ok with that if they didn't have a special Federal charter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Sco...

Except that federal charter doesn't grant them any tax dollars, it just grants them control over their branding as a recognized 'patriotic organization'.

nel e nel wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

I'd be ok with that if they didn't have a special Federal charter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Sco...

Except that federal charter doesn't grant them any tax dollars, it just grants them control over their branding as a recognized 'patriotic organization'.

It still puts them on a pedestal where violations of the 1st Amendment are more egregious (in my not-a-lawyer's mind) than for a less federally-involved corporation.

nel e nel wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

I am pretty sure that to be "all inclusive" of people, be it a school, or the scouts, having to be different on the sly flies in the face of that message. Just mumble to yourself, is not being inclusive or tolerant. But it is a great lesson for the future.

Religious people want to shout from the rooftops, and will say the first amendment protects that right. Add they are correct. But they want anyone else to whisper their beliefs, because the first amendment only applies to the Babby Jeezus. Atheists, Muslims, Gays should just keep quiet.

Yeah, but Scouts is a bit of an anomaly as there are charters all across the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

Last time I checked, Egypt and Libya were not predominantly Christian cultures. ;p

This is about the BSA.

nel e nel wrote:

Yeah, that is over the top, Mr. Godwin.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

Seriously, f*ck the Boy Scouts. Bigots who do some good things are still bigots, and they can kiss my atheist ass.

But that's kinda my point, if you think they are a bunch of bigots, then why do you care what the f*ck they do? They aren't lynching minorities, curing homosexuals, burning down abortion clinics or shoving their doctrine down non-believers throats.

They're a prominent organization that gets to use the facilities of the public elementary school my kids go to. They do things at the publicly-funded Community Center. They're an organization who has proudly and openly stated that discriminatory practices are part of their creed. That's why I care what they do. They get a free pass because OMG CAMPING TRADITION BADGES, but they consider one of their core values to be an overt form of bigotry. I guess I'm just sick of the notion that I should be tolerant of people who discriminate against LGBTQ folks because their religion or traditions say so. The Boy Scouts are particularly egregious because they're so prominent and claim to be an organization that promotes great values, yet one of their basic values is pretty disgusting.

They Discriminate and have an openly faith based message and they get Federal/State funding. It ends there, they are breaking the law.

KingGorilla wrote:

They Discriminate and have an openly faith based message and they get Federal/State funding. It ends there, they are breaking the law.

No, all their funding comes from private donations, memberships, corporate sponsors and special events. They are federally recognized as a 'patriotic organization' which only grants them full control of their insignia and branding. Which is not much different than a trademark at it's core.

http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/...

Not to mention enjoying tax exempt status.

I was an atheist Eagle Scout in a troop based out of a church, and I never got the feeling that atheism was frowned upon or that the organization was at all religious--we used church property for our meetings, but that was the extent of the church's involvement. Certainly there were no prayers. For me, it was just an avenue to learn some new skills, make some friends, and go on camping trips.

I also never felt I was lying when I recited the oath or law. "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country" seemed fine to say as an atheist--I just thought the part about "duty to God" didn't apply to me. And I was "Reverent" about a variety of things and concepts: the natural world, human achievement and potential, etc.

I have no idea what the national organization's official policy was at the time (this was 20 years ago). But an individual scout is never directly exposed to the national organization, and apparently troops can vary a lot, so I'd encourage parents to consider shopping around a bit to find a troop that's in line with your values.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

They're a prominent organization that gets to use the facilities of the public elementary school my kids go to. They do things at the publicly-funded Community Center. They're an organization who has proudly and openly stated that discriminatory practices are part of their creed. That's why I care what they do. They get a free pass because OMG CAMPING TRADITION BADGES, but they consider one of their core values to be an overt form of bigotry. I guess I'm just sick of the notion that I should be tolerant of people who discriminate against LGBTQ folks because their religion or traditions say so. The Boy Scouts are particularly egregious because they're so prominent and claim to be an organization that promotes great values, yet one of their basic values is pretty disgusting.

I can't say much about the use of public facilities in your area, but in my 12+ years of scouting, the majority of the facilities we had access to was chairs and a room. Not really taxing the public funding in my opinion. If it bothers you that much, why aren't you lobbying your school district/community board to not support discriminatory groups? Maybe your local chapters don't discriminate, I don't know. Mine didn't.

For the record, I agree with you regarding their contradictory messages on the topic of gay membership, but I don't see how forcing the Scouts to bend your notions of integrity is somehow more virtuous. Values vary from person to person and depend alot on what you believe in. There have been several testimonials in this thread from folks who were in scouts that related experiences that were free from bigotry and religious discrimination. The outliers that Malor talked about are just that - outliers. The fact that the BSA is even letting individual charters decide for themselves whether or not they will allow gay members is a HUGE step for this organization.

But whatever, I guess I've already dug a hole for myself as some sort of bigot apologist, so feel free to trash me in IRC since my DNS is blacklisted.

nel e nel wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

They're a prominent organization that gets to use the facilities of the public elementary school my kids go to. They do things at the publicly-funded Community Center. They're an organization who has proudly and openly stated that discriminatory practices are part of their creed. That's why I care what they do. They get a free pass because OMG CAMPING TRADITION BADGES, but they consider one of their core values to be an overt form of bigotry. I guess I'm just sick of the notion that I should be tolerant of people who discriminate against LGBTQ folks because their religion or traditions say so. The Boy Scouts are particularly egregious because they're so prominent and claim to be an organization that promotes great values, yet one of their basic values is pretty disgusting.

I can't say much about the use of public facilities in your area, but in my 12+ years of scouting, the majority of the facilities we had access to was chairs and a room. Not really taxing the public funding in my opinion. If it bothers you that much, why aren't you lobbying your school district/community board to not support discriminatory groups? Maybe your local chapters don't discriminate, I don't know. Mine didn't.

For the record, I agree with you regarding their contradictory messages on the topic of gay membership, but I don't see how forcing the Scouts to bend your notions of integrity is somehow more virtuous. Values vary from person to person and depend alot on what you believe in. There have been several testimonials in this thread from folks who were in scouts that related experiences that were free from bigotry and religious discrimination. The outliers that Malor talked about are just that - outliers. The fact that the BSA is even letting individual charters decide for themselves whether or not they will allow gay members is a HUGE step for this organization.

But whatever, I guess I've already dug a hole for myself as some sort of bigot apologist, so feel free to trash me in IRC since my DNS is blacklisted.

((((hugs)))) - I disagree with you, but no one in IRC is trashing you

KingGorilla wrote:

http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/...

Not to mention enjoying tax exempt status.

That's because they are classified as a non-profit organization. Same as most religious organizations in the US.

nel e nel wrote:

But whatever, I guess I've already dug a hole for myself as some sort of bigot apologist, so feel free to trash me in IRC since my DNS is blacklisted.

I don't think it's come to that yet. I think you guys are exploring some valid questions: is it ever okay for the religious to discriminate against the non-religious (or god-believers for accuracy's sake) in an organization that isn't a church, but isn't totally secular, either. And even if it is, is there a point where an organization becomes sufficiently secular that the religious element is so small the organization can no longer 'claim that exemption' I guess you could say, like how I can't pretend my backyard is a farm just because I planted a few tomatoes.

nel e nel wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

They're a prominent organization that gets to use the facilities of the public elementary school my kids go to. They do things at the publicly-funded Community Center. They're an organization who has proudly and openly stated that discriminatory practices are part of their creed. That's why I care what they do. They get a free pass because OMG CAMPING TRADITION BADGES, but they consider one of their core values to be an overt form of bigotry. I guess I'm just sick of the notion that I should be tolerant of people who discriminate against LGBTQ folks because their religion or traditions say so. The Boy Scouts are particularly egregious because they're so prominent and claim to be an organization that promotes great values, yet one of their basic values is pretty disgusting.

I can't say much about the use of public facilities in your area, but in my 12+ years of scouting, the majority of the facilities we had access to was chairs and a room. Not really taxing the public funding in my opinion. If it bothers you that much, why aren't you lobbying your school district/community board to not support discriminatory groups? Maybe your local chapters don't discriminate, I don't know. Mine didn't.

For the record, I agree with you regarding their contradictory messages on the topic of gay membership, but I don't see how forcing the Scouts to bend your notions of integrity is somehow more virtuous. Values vary from person to person and depend alot on what you believe in. There have been several testimonials in this thread from folks who were in scouts that related experiences that were free from bigotry and religious discrimination. The outliers that Malor talked about are just that - outliers. The fact that the BSA is even letting individual charters decide for themselves whether or not they will allow gay members is a HUGE step for this organization.

But whatever, I guess I've already dug a hole for myself as some sort of bigot apologist, so feel free to trash me in IRC since my DNS is blacklisted.

It's great that you had a good experience scouting. I would not deny that the Scouts do all sorts of good things, but, again, they're good things for some. The Boy Scouts are an organization for kids and teens, and the teen suicide rate for LGBTQ kids is dramatically higher. The homeless rate for those kids is dramatically higher. Their lives are difficult enough without having an organization that is at bare minimum socially sanctioned and considered to be a "positive place" come out and prevent them from joining. The BSA's policies have been unquestionably discriminatory and, while it's nice public pressure is starting to have some effect, the people who enacted those policies are still there. I don't care if it filters down to the local level. Every dollar spent on the BSA is a dollar spent on an organization that thinks gays and atheists are lesser people who aren't worthy of their exalted "honor code". At least when they aren't busy covering up sexual abuse, of course, which is an entirely different black eye that's likely going to get worse as more news comes out.

No doubt that the BSA does great things for all sorts of young, heterosexual males, but that's not the point. They're exclusionary, and the simple fact that people are willing to defend them because they've been around for years doesn't change that. This is not a personal attack on you. It's great you had the experiences you did, but those experiences weren't available to others based on pretty clearly repugnant and unethical ideas.

nel e nel wrote:

If it bothers you that much, why aren't you lobbying your school district/community board to not support discriminatory groups?

The Support Our Scouts Act basically makes that impossible.

The same act also requires the DoD to give the Boy Scouts money every year to throw a f*cking party. So, what were you saying about private funding?

iaintgotnopants wrote:
nel e nel wrote:

If it bothers you that much, why aren't you lobbying your school district/community board to not support discriminatory groups?

The Support Our Scouts Act basically makes that impossible.

The same act also requires the DoD to give the Boy Scouts money every year to throw a f*cking party. So, what were you saying about private funding?

Well, sh*t, I've been completely out of touch with Scouts for a good 20 years, so I was not aware of that act. I stand corrected, and that's kinda bullsh*t.

As the father of a 10 y/o, I've been very interested in how the BSA has progressed (or not) in their attitudes. I was a scout for a short while, realizing that I was a miserable camper and outdoorsman (pitching a tent on top of a fire ant hill is a poignant lesson). So scouting was never holy to me. But as someone who supports human equality, with many gay friends, I cannot with good conscience allow my son to participate in an organization that actively discriminates, regardless of the positive experiences he might get out it.

And now I'm fairly disheartened to see the direction that the BSA has moved in, because I do believe my son would have gotten positive experiences from it. The cynic in me agrees that the headlines will read that they no longer prohibition gay troop members at the national level but the discrimination will continue at the local level. It is a political and cowardly manuever. The national council gets to say "we don't discriminate against gays anymore" while winking slyly to the local councils. It is kind of disgusting to me.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

It's great that you had a good experience scouting. I would not deny that the Scouts do all sorts of good things, but, again, they're good things for some. The Boy Scouts are an organization for kids and teens, and the teen suicide rate for LGBTQ kids is dramatically higher. The homeless rate for those kids is dramatically higher. Their lives are difficult enough without having an organization that is at bare minimum socially sanctioned and considered to be a "positive place" come out and prevent them from joining. The BSA's policies have been unquestionably discriminatory and, while it's nice public pressure is starting to have some effect, the people who enacted those policies are still there. I don't care if it filters down to the local level. Every dollar spent on the BSA is a dollar spent on an organization that thinks gays and atheists are lesser people who aren't worthy of their exalted "honor code". At least when they aren't busy covering up sexual abuse, of course, which is an entirely different black eye that's likely going to get worse as more news comes out.

No doubt that the BSA does great things for all sorts of young, heterosexual males, but that's not the point. They're exclusionary, and the simple fact that people are willing to defend them because they've been around for years doesn't change that. This is not a personal attack on you. It's great you had the experiences you did, but those experiences weren't available to others based on pretty clearly repugnant and unethical ideas.

No disrespect intended, but have you or someone you know had a negative experience with BSA? I guess from my perspective the intolerance of LGBTQ is more of a cultural issue writ large rather than just with the BSA. I get that the BSA is in everyone's target right now with this recent announcement, but I've been so removed from that organization for so long now - hell, I don't even think I've seen a scout/troop in 12 years living in Brooklyn - that they are totally off my radar for the most part.

nel e nel wrote:

No disrespect intended, but have you or someone you know had a negative experience with BSA?

How many people have negative experiences with Chick-fil-A? I'd suspect that the vast majority of their customers were no less satisfied than they were with any other fast food chain (and indeed, they might even be better than average, I have no idea). Does that have any impact on their anti-gay policies and decisions people make to support them in light of that knowledge?

nel e nel wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:

It's great that you had a good experience scouting. I would not deny that the Scouts do all sorts of good things, but, again, they're good things for some. The Boy Scouts are an organization for kids and teens, and the teen suicide rate for LGBTQ kids is dramatically higher. The homeless rate for those kids is dramatically higher. Their lives are difficult enough without having an organization that is at bare minimum socially sanctioned and considered to be a "positive place" come out and prevent them from joining. The BSA's policies have been unquestionably discriminatory and, while it's nice public pressure is starting to have some effect, the people who enacted those policies are still there. I don't care if it filters down to the local level. Every dollar spent on the BSA is a dollar spent on an organization that thinks gays and atheists are lesser people who aren't worthy of their exalted "honor code". At least when they aren't busy covering up sexual abuse, of course, which is an entirely different black eye that's likely going to get worse as more news comes out.

No doubt that the BSA does great things for all sorts of young, heterosexual males, but that's not the point. They're exclusionary, and the simple fact that people are willing to defend them because they've been around for years doesn't change that. This is not a personal attack on you. It's great you had the experiences you did, but those experiences weren't available to others based on pretty clearly repugnant and unethical ideas.

No disrespect intended, but have you or someone you know had a negative experience with BSA? I guess from my perspective the intolerance of LGBTQ is more of a cultural issue writ large rather than just with the BSA. I get that the BSA is in everyone's target right now with this recent announcement, but I've been so removed from that organization for so long now - hell, I don't even think I've seen a scout/troop in 12 years living in Brooklyn - that they are totally off my radar for the most part.

Nope. I did Cub Scouts for a bit as a kid, but didn't keep it up. I don't know anybody who's had a bad experience, but the honest truth is I have become progressively more and more enraged with the fact that there is even the vaguest debate about gay rights in this country. It's hard for me to approach it rationally anymore, it just pisses me off that much. I know somewhat socially a guy who was elected our district state senator in 2010; when he voted to put a "ban gay marriage" amendment on the Constitution, I told my wife he would never be allowed into my house again. I believe quite plainly that racial prejudice is less overt in this country these days because racial bigots have been repeatedly and publicly shunned and ashamed, and, while there are clearly still significant problems with race in this country, it's at least no longer OK to walk down the street in a large part of the country and make racist comments. I personally find there to be no difference between racism and people who want to discriminate against LGBTQ folks, and think that the same basic logic applies; let people know those attitudes are repugnant, and they'll feel less free to spout them. That's it. Run an organization that discriminates against gays and lesbians? Fine, it's your organization, and you can do exactly what you want with it, but you know what? I get to point out as loudly as I please that your organization is based on bigotry and that I am ashamed of you.

Plain and simple. Now, I don't run down friends who have kids in the scouts; I have several who do, and I don't jump in their face. Until they ask me why I don't have my kid in the Boy Scouts, at which point, yes, I start to rant.