So Long, My Wii — Now Playing: ?

SixteenBlue wrote:

In retrospect I think that level was a turning point for me as well. I struggled with it during my first attempt at playing the game. I think I might have even put the game down for a while. When I came back, it clicked and I flew through the rest of the game.

Can't speak for co-op though.

Funnily enough, we were talking with another couple about DKCR yesterday, and that was the point where they ended co-op as well.

I've now made it into the infamous World 8 of Donkey Kong Country Returns, and I've had a bit of a change of heart about the controls. Maybe.

World 8 is, for the record, a bit challenging, and it requires a familiarity with Donkey Kong's complete moveset. When I first started the game, I complained about how the controls felt imprecise, especially the motion controls, and that I was struggling with them a bit. At some point in World 7, I realized that I had somehow come to a point where I felt really, powerfully in control of my character in a way that I don't always in platformers. I was using all of Donkey Kong's moves with ease and fluidity, and it all felt right.

Now, does that mean I was wrong before? Does the game actually have much tighter controls than I could see at the beginning, or have I simply gotten used to their wonkiness and learned to play accordingly? I honestly couldn't say. What I can say is that I no longer think SixteenBlue is crazy for praising the game's controls. By this point with most platformers, I generally feel I'm as in control of my character as I ever have been. However, Donkey Kong Country Returns has made me feel like I've really learned to use and appreciate everything the character has to offer.

VALIDATION!

World 8 ended up being challenging but not too bad. It was just about the right amount of challenge for my tastes. The rocket level was a little crazy, but not too bad.

I also made it to the final boss last night, and I hates him, precious. I tried for nearly 45 minutes to beat him and just couldn't manage it. At first it was a matter of learning the patterns of his attacks and figuring out how to dodge a couple that seemed impossible. But the last twenty minutes or so was just whittling him down to one more hit but not being able to land it because the opportunity window for it is so incredibly small. It was incredibly frustrating to have him down to just one hit left but miss it six, seven times in a row only to screw up and lose to one of his attacks.

I don't understand why platformers have to end with boss fights instead of, say, really difficult platforming challenges. That's what I loved so much about the last levels in Mario 3D Land: despite having a big boss in them, they were essentially just harder platforming levels.

I gave up on the last boss, IIRC. I do that a lot though, I have low tolerance for frustration given how many other games I could be playing instead.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

That's what I loved so much about the last levels in Mario 3D Land: despite having a big boss in them, they were essentially just harder platforming levels.

It's weird that trend was tossed out in New Super Mario Bros. U after NSMB Wii, 3D Land and NSMB 2 featured platforming segments as the final "boss".

Sounds a lot like King K. Rool in Donkey Kong Country 2. Unlike King K. Rool in the first DKC, I was never able to get DKC2's final boss to a perfect systematic pattern.

Or I'm thinking of his secondary ghost form, but I don't think I ever beat super challenging world.

Donkey Kong Country Returns is done. I haven't actually started it yet, but next up is The Last Story. Anything I should know going in?

I think one review I read said to be sure to turn on manual control in the options. That might not be its exact name, but basically make it so that your character doesn't automatically attack.

beanman101283 wrote:

I think one review I read said to be sure to turn on manual control in the options. That might not be its exact name, but basically make it so that your character doesn't automatically attack.

Considering how often I was trying to do anything BUT attack towards the end of the game, I shall sagely nod to this.

ccesarano wrote:
beanman101283 wrote:

I think one review I read said to be sure to turn on manual control in the options. That might not be its exact name, but basically make it so that your character doesn't automatically attack.

Considering how often I was trying to do anything BUT attack towards the end of the game, I shall sagely nod to this.

Good to know. I'm an hour in so far and it hasn't been a problem.

SixteenBlue wrote:
ccesarano wrote:
beanman101283 wrote:

I think one review I read said to be sure to turn on manual control in the options. That might not be its exact name, but basically make it so that your character doesn't automatically attack.

Considering how often I was trying to do anything BUT attack towards the end of the game, I shall sagely nod to this.

Good to know. I'm an hour in so far and it hasn't been a problem.

I left it on automatic but I'm getting to the point where it's getting in the way now.

From what the game explains, on manual your individual attacks will do less damage, but I think that it might be outweighed by the fact that you can perform your attacks faster. So I'm not sure how it balances out in the end.

I do know that it's really annoying if I'm trying to dodge past an enemy but end up attacking them instead.

It's also a lot more helpful when you're trying to dive between two guys so you can get to your pal that is down, and instead Zael decides he wants to hack at those jerks for a bit.

ccesarano wrote:

It's also a lot more helpful when you're trying to dive between two guys so you can get to your pal that is down, and instead Zael decides he wants to hack at those jerks for a bit.

Exactly! Grrr, that's driving me crazy.

Sorry double post.

Manual attacks with the Wii remote+nunchuk is my preferred control method. Clocky, I'd recommend experimenting to find what's most comfortable to you.

Oh that reminds me, what's the preferred controller for The Last Story? Nunchuk or classic?

Men and women of taste prefer the Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword Golden Wii Remote+ and the Club Nintendo exclusive Golden Nunchuk. If you can't muster those, well. Play with whatever toys suit your simian paws best.

I experimented with both setups and each attack type over the first hour or so of the game and my preference is as stated in my prior post. I would imagine it's largely up to which controller fits your hands the best. Actually let me think about this a moment.

Edit: Okay, I remember the tipping point in favor of the Wii-remote for me now. Aiming projectiles is an important part of the gameplay, and it's handled by hitting a button to shift the view to first-person and moving the reticule with a thumbstick. I play a fair number of first person shooters, so when I have two thumbsticks and an aiming reticule my instinct is to aim with the right stick. In TLS with the Classic Controller you aim with the left stick, and that threw me off. Having just one stick eliminated the confusion.

Hrm, I figured you would have said you just aim with the Wiimote itself. You can't move while aiming, which kind of irked me.

I did the Classic Controller Pro, but I'm just so accustomed to normal controllers that if I have the option, I'll probably always choose that.

I did the Classic Controller Pro as well. I'm just so used to it from Monster Hunter it's practically glued to my hands...

I got to play the first hour of The Last Story last night.

My strongest initial impression is that, on a mechanical level, it reminds me a lot of Mass Effect or what I played of Dragon Age 2. The mixture of real-time combat, AI-controlled squadmates, and well-defined arena spaces gives everything a very Western feel. I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a JRPG at this point that feels more like a WRPG. (Possibly Xenoblade Chronicles. It's an interesting side note that Nintendo, a very Japanese company, teamed up with Monolithsoft, makers of some very Japanese RPGs, and the creator of Final Fantasy, who practically defined JRPGs, to create two JRPGs that mechanically feel like Western-made games. And they weren't even intended for Western audiences; it practically took an act of Congress to get them released here.)

After trying a few different control configurations, I ended up with the Classic Controller Pro with manual attacking. I may end up switching to auto-attack just to give myself one less thing to do. I found combat to be a bit bewildering, as I tend to with real-time systems that give me squadmates to keep an eye on. There were lots of things happening around my character all the time: squadmates attacking enemies; enemies casting spells; my squadmates casting spells and needing to be defended; numbers and lines of light and all manner of things popping all over the HUD. It was overwhelming, and I felt a little bit lost. I'd always end up feeling like whatever I was doing wasn't the right thing to be doing at that moment.

But I think I'll get used to it. It helps that I'm not expected to give orders to anyone at this point. As near as I can tell, my role in combat is to use Gathering to draw enemy attention, revive downed partners, and gather information using seek mode. I dodge and guard against attacks a fair amount, but executing attacks myself almost seems to be beside the point. I'm an indirect guide of battle, not necessarily a participant.

This crystallized for me during an early battle on a bridge. Yurrick, my mage, was casting a spell to take out a ranged attacker on a nearby ledge. Spells take time to cast, and Yurrick had a good ten or fifteen more seconds before his was cast (helpfully indicated by a timer both over his character model and over his status icon on the HUD). The enemy he was attacking, however, had five to eight seconds to cast its own spell against him. So I drew the enemy's attention, which caused it to switch targets and start its casting clock over from the beginning, giving Yurrick enough time to finish his spell and take the enemy down. It was a strange sort of indirect attack on my part, but it's a really novel mechanic I haven't really encountered before.

Story-wise, I'm just into the third chapter, so not much has happened on that front. It's a little strange to me how the story will abruptly jump backward in time without necessarily indicating that you're watching a flashback. It's an interesting storytelling technique that would suggest that the protagonist, Zael, is emotionally stuck on past events. They're very real and very present for him despite their chronological distance. There are hints that the other characters might be similarly traumatized, so I'm interested to see how that develops and whether that technique continues to be utilized throughout the game (and if it indeed indicates what it would seem to about Zael's character).

I hope you adjust to The Last Story rather quickly. The idea that you're directing the battle I think is very appropriate, as most of the major duties you have don't have to do with direct attacks. Direct attacks are more a method of being productive while waiting for your command gauge to refill (which I'm not sure you've gotten to, yet).

The combat basically got better to me the more they introduced.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Story-wise, I'm just into the third chapter, so not much has happened on that front. It's a little strange to me how the story will abruptly jump backward in time without necessarily indicating that you're watching a flashback. It's an interesting storytelling technique that would suggest that the protagonist, Zael, is emotionally stuck on past events. They're very real and very present for him despite their chronological distance. There are hints that the other characters might be similarly traumatized, so I'm interested to see how that develops and whether that technique continues to be utilized throughout the game (and if it indeed indicates what it would seem to about Zael's character).

I'm at the same point (maybe Chapter 4) but I had very similar thoughts. I find the entire presentation to be very rough and jarring. It cuts away suddenly a lot, often in the middle of characters speaking.

SixteenBlue wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:

Story-wise, I'm just into the third chapter, so not much has happened on that front. It's a little strange to me how the story will abruptly jump backward in time without necessarily indicating that you're watching a flashback. It's an interesting storytelling technique that would suggest that the protagonist, Zael, is emotionally stuck on past events. They're very real and very present for him despite their chronological distance. There are hints that the other characters might be similarly traumatized, so I'm interested to see how that develops and whether that technique continues to be utilized throughout the game (and if it indeed indicates what it would seem to about Zael's character).

I'm at the same point (maybe Chapter 4) but I had very similar thoughts. I find the entire presentation to be very rough and jarring. It cuts away suddenly a lot, often in the middle of characters speaking.

Those cut aways to the past are not that frequent once you get into it. They're just at the beginning to give a little back story. You can tell because Dagran and Zael look younger.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

I got to play the first hour of The Last Story last night.

Squee!

I have to get playing the Last Story and Xenoblades. I bought both for a hefty sum (compared to my usual game budgets with Steam sales), and I've played both a bit but haven't gotten super deep into either. I'm further in Xenoblades, probably about 5 to 10 hours in. I like both. Must play.....

OK, 12 pages of posts to catch up on, but I'm definitely going to go back and read this. I've just scored a Wii, and I'm looking for some recommendations here, so if anyone wants to fast track my back reading, feel free to drop me some gems over there, rather than clutter up Clocky's thread

I'm a bit further into The Last Story now. I'm in Chapter 10:

Spoiler:

Calista has been captured by the King of the Gurak, so Zael and Dagran have set off to rescue her.

The combat is fun, if still a little frantic. Control-wise, I've finally found a combination that suits all my needs. I've been using the classic controller pro with auto-attack enabled, but I changed the settings so that I can only dodge while blocking. That might come back to bite me later, but at least Zael's no longer attacking enemies instead of dodging past them or jumping out into the fray instead of getting into cover.

I'm not sure about the story, yet. Zael isn't really my kind of protagonist. That sweet, essentially good young man who aspires to be a knight just doesn't excite me. The side characters so far seem much more interesting and nuanced.

I'm also a little put off by how sexist the storyline is. For all the Syrenne and Mirania seem like capable, independent women, the main love interest so far seems to be the usual fragile, helpless girl who really needs a sweet, essentially good young man to rescue her from her circumstances. It doesn't help that in her introductory cutscene we meet her gently bouncing breasts before we actually meet her.

It doesn't help that in her introductory cutscene we meet her gently bouncing breasts before we actually meet her.

This would be a case of "Because Japan", and whenever sexism in games comes about I feel like there should always be an asterisk where Japan is concerned. Their culture may have a lot of similarities to ours, but there are also enough differences that some of that stuff may be considered normal or not at all sexist. Of course, I also don't know what the discussion over there looks like. Are there women that find that appauling? Do they find it okay? Of course, you get the same thing in the states, where some women are okay with scantily-clad women.

I wouldn't let that bother you too much. Truth told, Calista and Zael seemed the least interesting characters to me as well, and it is the other characters that really sell it (as I stated before, I'm kind of in love with Syrenne and Mirania).

But Zael definitely goes through some growth in this game. I can't promise you'll like him by the end, but you may appreciate his arc.

I feel like Calista has her own strengths, though, and in some ways ends up having more wisdom than Zael when later events roll around. I dunno. I wouldn't call her a damsel in distress, though. She's just not an experienced mercenary.

ccesarano wrote:
It doesn't help that in her introductory cutscene we meet her gently bouncing breasts before we actually meet her.

This would be a case of "Because Japan", and whenever sexism in games comes about I feel like there should always be an asterisk where Japan is concerned. Their culture may have a lot of similarities to ours, but there are also enough differences that some of that stuff may be considered normal or not at all sexist. Of course, I also don't know what the discussion over there looks like. Are there women that find that appauling? Do they find it okay? Of course, you get the same thing in the states, where some women are okay with scantily-clad women.

I generally try to take culture into consideration when critiquing stories. However, even by the standards of the Japanese culture I've been exposed to, Calista's portrayal came off as a bit sexist.

Spoiler:

At the very least, the scene when Zael first discovers her identity was ridiculous. She hadn't seemed quite so weak and simpering when he met her earlier in the marketplace, but suddenly she's a limp noodle of a character who stands around passively while her fiancé bullies her. Rescue, of course, comes in the form of the brave and good Zael who must step in to defend her honor.

The whole thing put me off, and I have a fairly high tolerance for and understand of what you call "because Japan".

I feel like Calista has her own strengths, though, and in some ways ends up having more wisdom than Zael when later events roll around. I dunno. I wouldn't call her a damsel in distress, though. She's just not an experienced mercenary.

I hope they grow and develop all of their characters, most especially Zael and Calista. It seems as though much of the story is going to hinge on their romance, and I'd like to believe in them and their relationship.