2012/13 Soccer Thread

UCRC wrote:

Oh, right, Mirallas. How is he doing? Haven't heard about him since beginning of the season.

Pacey winger with some potential as playmaker and goalscorer. He's been injured for a good chunk of the season, but IMO is a big part of why Everton had some offensive fluency early on.

Would be really, really good to have him back in the side and healthy.

How is Jelavic doing? I saw Everton a couple of times and he was doing okay but was bit unlucky with his chances.
I saw the game against Swansea wen you were on that good run and Anichebe looked okay.

UCRC wrote:

How is Jelavic doing? I saw Everton a couple of times and he was doing okay but was bit unlucky with his chances.
I saw the game against Swansea wen you were on that good run and Anichebe looked okay.

Think he's been struggling to fit into the side as we're routing more offense through Fellaini, which has put him into a tailspin. He missed a total sitter in the Southampton game, after Anichebe set him up beautifully.

Hoping he manages to find his form again before too long. It's not like we have firepower to spare.

Sneijder has sealed his move to Gala.... and apparently Mourinho was the one that convinced him to go?

Nothing of note of what Mourinho actually said but hes apparently on 5m(euro?) a year and hes not cup tied so he gets to play vs Shalke which is partly why I'm surprised no one else came after him.

edit: Also I thought it was a loan deal at first but no its a done deal with no transfer # that I can find.

Has he honestly fallen off that badly? At 28 seems like a potential steal.

edit2: Seems like the fee was 'around 8.4m pounds'....

Reports were that WS was on about € 200k a week, which equates to about 10m per annum. He didn't play too well last season for Inter, and by all accounts he is a self-absorbed tosspot who is roundly disliked by his teammates (and in the Dutch national team as well), so anyone interested in dressing room harmony might want to avoid him. United were the team most often linked with him, but his spats with RvP are legendary, so that was off the table. I think he was hoping Liverpool would be in for him, but once they'd spent 12m on Sturridge, that was their Jan budget gone, so Inter told him to hurry up and piss off.

This looks like a wait-and-see by WS. He obviously didn't want to go to Turkey, so he's hoping that a good showing in the CL will convince clubs in the Premiership to take a punt on him in summer. Gala will use him to progress in the CL and hope to sell him at a profit over the summer - it's pretty obvious they won't be paying him 200k a week or anything like it.

Number I saw was 5m which I'm assuming is euros. 100k sounds like allot in football terms but it's fairly average in the north American sports equivalence.

Partly why I think wenger is mad. His wage structure in the NHL NFL and NBA would be laughable and his team would lose its best players every time their contracts were ending..... o wait that happens already.

Pretty tidy business by everyone IMO then. Wouldn't be surprised if Sneijder and/or Inter have a stake in the sell on also.

Edit: also think Spurs are playing possum in the transfer market. I'm assuming AVB has money to spend but doesn't want to just end up in an arms race with Arsenal. Wouldn't be surprised if they bring a player in on the last day at the last hour.

Hmm, not sure about 5m or the dollar equivalent being average in US sports. I'm guessing that in any NFL team, there will only be 5-8 players in a 53 man squad pulling in 5m a year (the salary cap is about 120m for the whole squad, which includes not just salaries but also signing bonuses etc) - plus unlike soccer players, NFL contracts aren't guaranteed - get cut, that's it. I was watching a program on ESPN on Sunday which suggested that a significant percentage NFL players go bankrupt within 5 years of finishing their careers...which on average last less than 4 years.

Oh, and re:Sneijder, per ESPN

"He is currently Inter and Serie A's highest earner with an annual salary worth 6 million euros a year after tax."

Top rate personal income tax in Italy is 43%. That equates to an overall expense of about €10.5m per annum. The main bone of contention between him and Inter is that they wanted him to take a 30% cut, which he was unwilling to do.

Inter reckon that getting rid of him now equates to a saving of €40m over the life of his deal with them.

Going bankrupt =/ with what NFL players get paid.

My point was more to the fact that Wenger acts like the wages are getting out of control when if anything they are coming in line with what some football clubs actually pull in with revenues.

I was always surprised when you work out what the top soccer players make and then rate it against the top athletes in the American leagues.

You honestly don't have to go past Baseball to get some jaw dropping numbers of guys you probably have never heard of pulling in the same wage as Ronaldo and Messi. Its not a very easy apples to apples comparison though as the details in Football tend to be more murky. Probably on purpose. At the end of the day though I would be willing to bet once you did an accurate comparison (size of teams, revenues etc) that Football was behind in terms of what their top guys were getting paid.

anyways going back to Spurs they just posted a loss of 4.6m pounds. AVB was also supposedly watching Gary Hooper today.

Adds to my theory they are playing possum in the market. You know AVB wants to add but at the same time I'm sure his funds are limited and if buying 1 player spurns Arsenal to buy 2 then he might be defeating himself.

edit: And as for Serie A clubs cutting costs? just them settling back as the 4th most relevant league in the world. Not so bold prediction but for the rest of our lifetimes we might be referring to the Bundesliga as the more important/prominent league.

Italy has nothing going for them right now and arguably no argument for a bright future.

Wages of American athletes have been out of control too though, for a while. I would hardly call the European football scene catching up on that a good thing at all.

Pikey26 wrote:

Wages of American athletes have been out of control too though, for a while. I would hardly call the European football scene catching up on that a good thing at all.

There is no 'out of control'. Last I checked the players don't set their own wages. The clubs/owners etc have to agree to pay them what they make. When Wenger says sh*t like that its pretty much crying that someone is ruining the game for his philosophy to work.

Sports is like any other business. If you cant afford to pay someone you don't. If teams want and can run in the negative that's the owners prerogative.

When it comes to this I only have sympathy for fans of say Portsmouth. They have no say in how the owner runs the club and especially when he burns it down. Theoretically the same can happen to Chelsea. At least their fans got a way better run out of their sugar daddy and when I say theoretically I don't see Roman stopping anywhere in the near future.

jowner wrote:
Pikey26 wrote:

Wages of American athletes have been out of control too though, for a while. I would hardly call the European football scene catching up on that a good thing at all.

There is no 'out of control'. Last I checked the players don't set their own wages. The clubs/owners etc have to agree to pay them what they make. When Wenger says sh*t like that its pretty much crying that someone is ruining the game for his philosophy to work.

Sports is like any other business. If you cant afford to pay someone you don't. If teams want and can run in the negative that's the owners prerogative.

When it comes to this I only have sympathy for fans of say Portsmouth. They have no say in how the owner runs the club and especially when he burns it down. Theoretically the same can happen to Chelsea. At least their fans got a way better run out of their sugar daddy and when I say theoretically I don't see Roman stopping anywhere in the near future.

Never blamed the players for that 'situation'. The onus is mostly on those who pay them. Sure, once an 'out of control' expectation is set, some players may play a role in the situation by refusing anything below a certain 'standard', but chances are that expectation is there in the first place because someone already decided that was an amount worth paying and raised it to that level.

People say those who don't like to pay should speak with their money by simply not paying, but how can you speak for those that ARE paying and throwing the market into chaos? Throw in Transfer fees and how that can also further add to the situation... yeah things can totally go out of control. Imo, this is one of the reasons why FFP is being introduced at all (although not very well.. and leaving me worried that it's being introduced for UEFA's own f*cked up reasons).

Also, American sports have drafting systems, which does a whole lot at closing the gap between teams. It's a very different world, and it's not one European football is capable of or should be taking notes from.

once again, just my opinion. that plus I barely watch any baseball, football, basketball any i admit, so i could totally be talking out of my ass.

Pikey26 wrote:
jowner wrote:
Pikey26 wrote:

Wages of American athletes have been out of control too though, for a while. I would hardly call the European football scene catching up on that a good thing at all.

There is no 'out of control'. Last I checked the players don't set their own wages. The clubs/owners etc have to agree to pay them what they make. When Wenger says sh*t like that its pretty much crying that someone is ruining the game for his philosophy to work.

Sports is like any other business. If you cant afford to pay someone you don't. If teams want and can run in the negative that's the owners prerogative.

When it comes to this I only have sympathy for fans of say Portsmouth. They have no say in how the owner runs the club and especially when he burns it down. Theoretically the same can happen to Chelsea. At least their fans got a way better run out of their sugar daddy and when I say theoretically I don't see Roman stopping anywhere in the near future.

Never blamed the players for that 'situation'. The onus is mostly on those who pay them. Sure, once an 'out of control' expectation is set, some players may play a role in the situation by refusing anything below a certain 'standard', but chances are that expectation is there in the first place because someone already decided that was an amount worth paying and raised it to that level.

People say those who don't like to pay should speak with their money by simply not paying, but how can you speak for those that ARE paying and throwing the market into chaos? Throw in Transfer fees and how that can also further add to the situation... yeah things can totally go out of control. Imo, this is one of the reasons why FFP is being introduced at all (although not very well.. and leaving me worried that it's being introduced for UEFA's own f*cked up reasons).

One of the previously best midfielders in the game just left Inter (cutting costs cause thats what businesses do when they have no $$$) to the Turkish league on a pay cut and a fairly nominal fee. Its hard to argue that the money is getting out of control when this happens. If anything Sneijeder just went for a price and a wage which is pretty fair all around and hardly out of control crazy money what has the footballing world come to.

My original point was more to the fact that some of the 'out of control spending' could be just the players actually catching up to what they actually bring in for revenues. Compared to other sports maybe footballers were already behind in % terms of what the revenues are. I have no clue TBH though.

Eg if the Premier league keeps getting better and better tv contracts the players are going to get increasing pay hikes.... Also the dynamic of paying players somewhat equally (Arsenal wage structure nonsense) and paying your stars star money and telling your bench players to shut up and play (Ferguson v Wes Brown wage negotiations).

Thing is as the same time this may have started happening allot of rich money bag owners have entered the game. So all we hear about is how they are ruining the level playing field of the game. Which is actually just moaning about ruining the status quo. Football doesn't need FFP.

What Arsenal need is for their manager to not sign players like Chamakh who turn so sour that we cant even sell him and were supposedly even paying 3/4 of his wages to suck at West Ham.

Well done Bradford.

jowner wrote:

One of the previously best midfielders in the game just left Inter (cutting costs cause thats what businesses do when they have no $$$) to the Turkish league on a pay cut and a fairly nominal fee. Its hard to argue that the money is getting out of control when this happens. If anything Sneijeder just went for a price and a wage which is pretty fair all around and hardly out of control crazy money what has the footballing world come to.

My original point was more to the fact that some of the 'out of control spending' could be just the players actually catching up to what they actually bring in for revenues. Compared to other sports maybe footballers were already behind in % terms of what the revenues are. I have no clue TBH though.

Eg if the Premier league keeps getting better and better tv contracts the players are going to get increasing pay hikes.... Also the dynamic of paying players somewhat equally (Arsenal wage structure nonsense) and paying your stars star money and telling your bench players to shut up and play (Ferguson v Wes Brown wage negotiations).

If I might...

The Sneijder situation is more to do with the fact that while Sneijder might have been previously one of the best midfielders, both RM and Inter saw fit to dispose of his services. Partly because he became injury prone, but also because he's an annoying c*ck. His 'pay cut' would probably still see him as one of the highest earners at every PL team, and is in fact for him just a holding pattern while he tries to regain some of the repuation he once had. Notice how many PL teams bid for him, even when he stalled and stalled his move to Turkey ? Exactly.

As for players being paid 'what they are worth' - how do you judge that ? It is also clear that player wages have escalated to the point where few, if any clubs in the UK, Spain or Italy are reporting any sort of profit at all, and even then it's usually due to one-off player sales or other non-football inputs, like Arsenal's apartments, rather than a surplus on continuing operations. German clubs seem a little better managed in this respect, although I do wonder what other monies Bayern players get when the club is sponsored by Germany's biggest names in the motor industry, telecoms industry, insurance industry etc.

The PL's TV contract is improving - the next one, which starts in 2014 I think, is almost triple the current one. Does that mean then that players should be paid triple their already astronomical salaries ? FPP would be a good idea but for 2 issues - it is being pimped by the clubs who caused the problems in the first place and now want to pull the ladder up so that no one else can join them, and also that salary capping in other countries has been proven to be circumvented by cheating whenever and wherever possible, such as by the 49'ers in the 1990's NFL, or by the Canterbury Bulldogs in the Australian Rugby League.

EDIT - just watching Bundesliga highlights while my coffee brews. Spurs have apparently agreed a deal with Schalke for Lewis Holtby. He looks a very good player, but as the commentator pointed out, they already have Dempsey and Sigurdsson in the same AM position.

I saw him a couple of times. He's good, had good two seasons, more clubs should have been in for him.

Hm, Spurs does seem to have a knack for picking up real talents just before other big clubs start entering the picture and cranking up the prices. Whatever scouting system they have there, Ferguson sorely needs.

Bebe.

UCRC wrote:

I saw him a couple of times. He's good, had good two seasons, more clubs should have been in for him.

Arsenal were supposedly in for him. Cant remember which scout sent 2 glowing reports in on him.

Good luck getting Wenger to admit getting pipped for a target though. Apparently we never wanted Zaha either.

As for Spurs having that area already covered its for the future and for now depth. The reason Arsenal can consistently finish 4th is other clubs really don't have the depth for a full run at 4th, especially when they happen to already be in the UEFA whatever its called cup now.

davet010 wrote:

The PL's TV contract is improving - the next one, which starts in 2014 I think, is almost triple the current one. Does that mean then that players should be paid triple their already astronomical salaries ?

Yes? and it wont be the players pushing it. FFP will be a an absolute joke when that deal comes through because the guys at UEFA are going to be left scratching their heads when a newly promoted Prem team has as much financial muscle as the top teams in Serie A.

edit:

10.35 GMT Sky Sports are reporting that Yoan Gouffran is at Newcastle having his medial now.

Remember when he was the next big thing?

jowner wrote:

Remember when he was the next big thing?

You thinking of Gourcuff ? I've never heard of this bloke.

Gourcuff had one great season with Bordeaux in 08-09. Hasn't come close since though.

davet010 wrote:
jowner wrote:

Remember when he was the next big thing?

You thinking of Gourcuff ? I've never heard of this bloke.

Prederick wrote:

Gourcuff had one great season with Bordeaux in 08-09. Hasn't come close since though.

He went to AC Milan as the next big thing and flopped out and yea then had a good season once he was back in France.

Gouffran is also from Bordeaux, pacy winger who had 0 good seasons. Pretty good in FM '10 or thereabouts, though

edit: I don't want Arsenal buying wingers, though. Last one we did was Gervinho. All good teams playing 4-2-3-1 pretty much have done away with wingers and exchanged them for inside forwards.

edit: I'm pretty sure 101greatgoals just crashed in last five minutes under weight of all people wanting to see Hazard kick a ballboy.

IMAGE(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1272142/img/Service%20Unavailable%20-%20Mozilla%20Firefox_2013-01-23_22-34-52.jpg)

edit: HOW DO I REPOST GIFS NOW
Anyway, brilliant ten minutes from Arsenal. And another amazing flick from Giroud for Santi's goal, it's almost like Arsenal of old.

http://blogs.thescore.com/counteratt...

works

edit: some people on twitter (even the Chelsea account) are acting like he tried to kick the ball out... Seems to be kicking pretty high and square in the ribs to me.

edit2: and obviously Arsenal don't need to sign anyone now. Squad is obviously good enough. Just seems to be a consistency problem.... wonder who we could blame that on ;P

jowner wrote:

http://blogs.thescore.com/counteratt...

works

edit: some people on twitter (even the Chelsea account) are acting like he tried to kick the ball out... Seems to be kicking pretty high and square in the ribs to me.

edit2: and obviously Arsenal don't need to sign anyone now. Squad is obviously good enough. Just seems to be a consistency problem.... wonder who we could blame that on ;P

Beating the team in 12th and you don't need anyone ? Good luck with that.

And Hazard ? Tosser.

davet010 wrote:
jowner wrote:

http://blogs.thescore.com/counteratt...

works

edit: some people on twitter (even the Chelsea account) are acting like he tried to kick the ball out... Seems to be kicking pretty high and square in the ribs to me.

edit2: and obviously Arsenal don't need to sign anyone now. Squad is obviously good enough. Just seems to be a consistency problem.... wonder who we could blame that on ;P

Beating the team in 12th and you don't need anyone ? Good luck with that.

And Hazard ? Tosser.

was sarcasm... Although after the game when asked about transfers Wenger said none yet but the reason he was cutting the time today was to go work on that.

Its not that I don't think theres some great talent on the current team but if they are flat theres next to nothing to bring off the bench especially.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Yeah, you shouldn't kick the ball boy. But what is that kid doing? I mean, Hazard gets sent off, but that kid better have been fired. He is rolling around on the ground with the ball like the jackass at recess who didn't get his way.

I don't know guys, it does NOT look Hazard was trying to directly kick the boy whatsoever. I see someone who should forever be banned from working anywhere near the pitch, acting like a total clown, lying on the ball in the dying minutes of a match. And I see a player dumbfounded by the situation, trying to kick the ball out from under him in the heat of the moment.

That ball boy is an absolute idiot, and a genuine asshole. He may have felt the contact but that did not look anywhere near like a kick that is on level with the kind of people are throwing this fuss over. I see a player trying to kick out a ball that shouldn't be under the boy in the first place, and his feet slightly catching what seems more like his stomach (or maybe lower ribs).

Pikey26 wrote:

I don't know guys, it does NOT look Hazard was trying to directly kick the boy whatsoever. I see someone who should forever be banned from working anywhere near the pitch, acting like a total clown, lying on the ball in the dying minutes of a match. And I see a player dumbfounded by the situation, trying to kick the ball out from under him in the heat of the moment.

That ball boy is an absolute idiot, and a genuine asshole. He may have felt the contact but that did not look anywhere near like a kick that is on level with the kind of people are throwing this fuss over. I see a player trying to kick out a ball that shouldn't be under the boy in the first place, and his feet slightly catching what seems more like his stomach (or maybe lower ribs).

I found the whole clip, and I feel that ball boy is a total punk. He flops on the ground, bear hugging the ball, and when Hazard kicks it to get it out he acts like he was shot. The thing that irks me the most is everyone will apologize to him, because otherwise they will look like dicks. I think the kid needs to be called out.

If Sepp would open up to a little more technology time-wasting wouldn't be as much of a factor, though maybe I'm being unrealistic

Put an official on the sidelines with the fourth official, give them a stop-watch. Whenever play is stopped, the official runs the stopwatch. At the end of the half that is the amount of added time (plus whatever is wasted in added time). No more Fergie-time conspiracies, no time-wasting because time added is less than the time play has been stopped.

There would still be tactical time-wasting but it wouldn't be of the run-out-the-clock variety.

Fairly damning that the ballboy in question sent this Tweet earlier in the day, ahead of the match.

IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/sir4hzK.jpg)

Think the red card was probably merited (you can't kick a ballboy, even if they're being a twat), but would like to see behavior like Charlie Morgan's be subject to sanction, as well.

[Edit to add: Sigh. Apparently Charlie Morgan the ballboy is the son of Swansea director Martin Morgan, and was drafted into duty at the last minute when one of the ballboys assigned to the game was unable to make it to the stadium, due to weather. Well, hopefully Bradford have one last upset in them, so this whole fiasco becomes moot.]