French still bitter that Lance Armstrong is better than them.

Yeah, in this case, this was most certainly not a victimless crime. Not even in the sense of taking away wins from people, but from his active destructive malevolence toward people that figured out what was going on.

As Bill Harris points out, he's worth about $125 million, but you sure don't see him issuing refunds.

That's not a man I'm inclined to forgive. I'm not sure jail time is appropriate, but I'd like to see him as a destitute old man working in McDonald's.

edit: fixed an incorrect word, sorry.

Over breakfast, my wife and our boarder had a brief talk about Lance Armstrong. It was on steroids in general.

Steroids are a dangerous substance. So is playing on a broken leg or ankle like Kurt Schilling or Terrell Owens have done. So is playing after a concussion, let alone several. So is starving and dehydrating yourself to make weight in Boxing, Wrestling, UFC. In Boxing and UFC often the goal is to render the opponent unconscious.

If it is about cheating. Bill Belecheck is still coaching, he was caught. Ohio State, U of M lost NCAA eligibility for a couple of years, but the money still seemed to flow in.

KingGorilla wrote:

Over breakfast, my wife and our boarder had a brief talk about Lance Armstrong. It was on steroids in general.

Steroids are a dangerous substance. So is playing on a broken leg or ankle like Kurt Schilling or Terrell Owens have done. So is playing after a concussion, let alone several. So is starving and dehydrating yourself to make weight in Boxing, Wrestling, UFC. In Boxing and UFC often the goal is to render the opponent unconscious.

Sure, but being a crab fisherman is a dangerous job, as is working on an oil rig. So is being a professional sportsman.

KingGorilla wrote:

Over breakfast, my wife and our boarder had a brief talk about Lance Armstrong. It was on steroids in general.

Steroids are a dangerous substance. So is playing on a broken leg or ankle like Kurt Schilling or Terrell Owens have done. So is playing after a concussion, let alone several. So is starving and dehydrating yourself to make weight in Boxing, Wrestling, UFC. In Boxing and UFC often the goal is to render the opponent unconscious.

To be clear, blood doping doesn't involve steroids and the side effects are all strictly related to having an abnormally high red blood cell count (increased clotting, chance of heart attack, embolism, etc). That obviously doesn't make it alright though.

complexmath wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

Over breakfast, my wife and our boarder had a brief talk about Lance Armstrong. It was on steroids in general.

Steroids are a dangerous substance. So is playing on a broken leg or ankle like Kurt Schilling or Terrell Owens have done. So is playing after a concussion, let alone several. So is starving and dehydrating yourself to make weight in Boxing, Wrestling, UFC. In Boxing and UFC often the goal is to render the opponent unconscious.

To be clear, blood doping doesn't involve steroids and the side effects are all strictly related to having an abnormally high red blood cell count (increased clotting, chance of heart attack, embolism, etc). That obviously doesn't make it alright though.

I really don't care much about this whole thing. The thing I do care about is that the internet seems to be making jokes about Armstrong using drugs. I've always considered doping not to be drug use. It's just an illegal activity in terms of sporting events. There are many good reasons that it is illegal. Does doping officially fall under the blanket of drug use?

It often involves taking pharmaceutical substances for recreational/professional reasons. I don't see it as being much different than, say, kids who crush and snort Adderall while studying for finals to stay up later and get better retention... even if it's a "natural" substance you're doing it to get an unnatural performance advantage.

To me that's drug use. I don't think blood doping is technically drug use, but it's still cheating. He did pop bonus hydrocortisone during Tours though; that's definitely drug use to me.

Modern blood doping involves the use of a hormone, EPO, to stimulate red blood cell production without adding them via transfusion, so I think that would count as "drug use".

Robear wrote:

Modern blood doping involves the use of a hormone, EPO, to stimulate red blood cell production without adding them via transfusion, so I think that would count as "drug use".

Ah, I see. So, all the blood dopers were using hormones. Is that how they detect it these days? Is it possible to dope without using the hormone? I would assume that is the transfusion bit. That's what I had thought blood doping was. How do they detect that?

KingGorilla wrote:

Over breakfast, my wife and our boarder had a brief talk about Lance Armstrong. It was on steroids in general.

Steroids are a dangerous substance. So is playing on a broken leg or ankle like Kurt Schilling or Terrell Owens have done. So is playing after a concussion, let alone several. So is starving and dehydrating yourself to make weight in Boxing, Wrestling, UFC. In Boxing and UFC often the goal is to render the opponent unconscious.

If it is about cheating. Bill Belecheck is still coaching, he was caught. Ohio State, U of M lost NCAA eligibility for a couple of years, but the money still seemed to flow in.

I wouldn't be terribly opposed to it if everyone doing it was a multi-million dollar athlete. In that case, you can say that the risks are more or less worth the rewards. But the problem is that it pushes down into the semi-pro, amateur and eventually high school ranks.

In the grand scheme of things, it's probably not that huge of a deal. Once again, my bigger issue with Armstrong is how he conducted himself when faced with these accusations.

How do they detect that?

Apparently, they check red blood cell counts before and after, and they also look for equipment. With EPO, you get a small but significant rise, and a shot at detecting higher than normal hormone levels. With blood pushing, you get small but significant rises in red blood cells overnight. That's my understanding.

It can't be comfortable being a bike racer these days. The food sucks, the races are hard, people are stabbing you for blood or injections a couple times a day, the press is all over you, you're exhausted and living out of mobile homes and hotels...

Robear wrote:
How do they detect that?

Apparently, they check red blood cell counts before and after, and they also look for equipment. With EPO, you get a small but significant rise, and a shot at detecting higher than normal hormone levels. With blood pushing, you get small but significant rises in red blood cells overnight. That's my understanding.

It can't be comfortable being a bike racer these days. The food sucks, the races are hard, people are stabbing you for blood or injections a couple times a day, the press is all over you, you're exhausted and living out of mobile homes and hotels...

Thanks for the info! Yeah, being a pro would not be fun.

Vintage Nike ad, from when the accusations against Lance were first raised.

A cyclist friend posted this on Facebook and I found it pretty compelling. A lot of people who busted their asses and gave their lives to the sport, according to the rules, never reached recognition because of cheating. With the recent school shootings, it seems like people did a better job of focusing on the victims than on the shooter. I think we should be doing the same here.

“And when Lance Armstrong ‘cries’ on Oprah later this week and she passes him the tissue, spare a thought for all those genuine people who walked away with no rewards - just shattered dreams,” she added. “Each one of them is worth a thousand Lances.”

I would just like to see everyone he's defamed or slandered sue him at this point.

Sorry guys. I'm flipping on this issue and siding with KillStrong. He might not be right in the traditional sense, but that man has taught me a new definition of the word "cool".

It's not that he cheated, it's not that he lied, it's not the f*cking MASSIVE cover-up that makes me SO angry at Armstrong... It was the rabid and direct way he abused, sued and targeted those who dared raise these, now proven to be true, accusations.

The guy is a f*cking scum bag and rightly deserves to be the worst drug cheat of all time. I cannot fathom how anyone can defend him.