Sometimes every parent has a bad day, right?

momgamer wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

Maybe it will turn out to be nothing, but if you're not asking the question of whether this is about parenting or about a more general anger issue, you're doing him a pretty big disservice. You're all so quick to give him reassurance that he's not being OOC as a parent that you're jumping right past whether he's being OOC as a human being.

My practical advice for you is to not be judgmental and over-the-top about situations you didn't see and have little or no referent for.

What you said doesn't make any sense. I wrote: "If the stressful event is a disappointing result in sports entertainment, that raises some red flags." Yes, none of us were there and he may be wrong about his own self-observations, but that's not a reason to ignore it, either.

CheezePavilion, I think we pretty much covered the 'acting out of anger was wrong' part...

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

if he stripped down and aimed at the couch, then blowing your top is totally understandable, and a quick swat isn't going to scar him; if he just peed, then it was probably an accident, in which case you punishing him for it really isn't ok.

Malor wrote:

If you spanked jdzappa jr. because of the lousy game outcome, well, you blew it.

duckideva wrote:

You mention the football game in such a way (my team, 10 seconds, etc.) that makes me think you probably took out your frustration on him when he did something annoying, but perfectly normal for his developmental age. Parents do have bad days. We all make mistakes. But, see here's the thing; kids can't be your outlet for your frustrations about stuff that they have no control over...like a local football team, or losing bladder control. Some kids will have bladder issues and night-time wettings well into elementary school; it's not as abnormal as you may think; and it's really not abnormal at 3.

As far as working on whether the anger needs to be managed, or if it was a 'one time thing', that's something for jd to answer. Based on the scenario presented here, we have given feedback, then moved forward and shared some of our own experiences and dilemmas with raising the little people.

If you're asking the question, then you know that you were not comfortable with your actions. This is a good thing. I asked here the cold spring day that I put my son in the car with no shirt on because he refused to get dressed.

What is good here is that you've probably identified for yourself that you went too far for the wrong reasons.

I spanked my oldest once. It was a love tap compared to what I used to get as a kid (which was well within the realm of "just spanking"). At that moment, I knew I didn't want to do it again.

If you're catching yourself and correcting your behaviour for the future then you'll probably be fine.
It's the people without conscience for their kids' well being that need to be worried about.

If I extrapolate, it sounds more like:

Tired parent.

Child being disagreeable. There are some rebel days.

A long build up of telling the child that he needs to go to the bathroom with constant refusal (this drives me crazy too. I can see they have to go and all I get back is "I don't need to". They poopsock life).

Tired parent may need a break, has a perhaps incorrect expectation of being able to watch a game, uninterrupted. Anger is the result of people failing to meet your expectations.

So, I read the football incident as less about taking out the loss on the child, but perhaps an incorrect expectation to be able to get away from it all at the end of a day's or week's build up. At least this is how it would have gone in my life.

Are you getting away? Sometime for yourself? Is the game the right get away? If you're expected to be with the family, maybe not. I gave up football when the first came along. Can't follow more than about two plays without interruption.

CheezePavilion wrote:
momgamer wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

Maybe it will turn out to be nothing, but if you're not asking the question of whether this is about parenting or about a more general anger issue, you're doing him a pretty big disservice. You're all so quick to give him reassurance that he's not being OOC as a parent that you're jumping right past whether he's being OOC as a human being.

My practical advice for you is to not be judgmental and over-the-top about situations you didn't see and have little or no referent for.

What you said doesn't make any sense. I wrote: "If the stressful event is a disappointing result in sports entertainment, that raises some red flags." Yes, none of us were there and he may be wrong about his own self-observations, but that's not a reason to ignore it, either.

The sentence that raised a red flag in your first post for me was, "In adult life, the naughty step is the chair in the anger management counselor's office." In real life, with your own real children, there are a heck of a lot of steps between the regular give and take of parenting and medical intervention. Our posts have been discussing those.

Besides, it's irrelevant on a practical level. I've had to do the anger management thing with my younger son and guess what they teach people to do? (hint: read my posts)

I'm not jumping past his being OOC as a human being. I simply can't make that call. And neither can you. So if ignoring = not commenting on nonconstructive stuff that I have no way to assess via this media, then I guess I am.

None of us ignored that he swatted the child out of a place of anger. You might want to do a little re-read about the part when I pointed out my concerns about his motivation for swatting. Nor did any of us say that was okay. Yes, we didn't burn him like a witch, but would that really help here?

Instead, I tried to give him some simple tools to evaluate his own situation, and a way to figure out where he wanted his family to go from here. We kept the conversation in a place where he might feel safe to talk to us again if he wants our input.

A parent with a good support network and more, better tools to handle the long years of work he has ahead of him is the outcome I'm after here, because it's much better for both parent and child. What outcome are you after with your accusations?

Edit: Sorry - my voice recognition software cut off in the middle there. Adding the last bit back in.

momgamer wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:
momgamer wrote:

Or maybe he's already acknowledged that is part of the problem and the rest of us have already moved on to practical advice for moving forward that might not make the problem worse?

Nope. The rest of you have moved on before asking a question that seriously needs to be asked. Maybe it will turn out to be nothing, but if you're not asking the question of whether this is about parenting or about a more general anger issue, you're doing him a pretty big disservice. You're all so quick to give him reassurance that he's not being OOC as a parent that you're jumping right past whether he's being OOC as a human being.

If you're giving him practical advice, then where's this practical advice: stop watching football if it's going to get you that upset.

Since I wasn't in his living room I can't vouch that the football was actually the problem. You can't either. He was there and he may not even know. That's the problem with emotional issues. You have no notion if this is a general issue, or just limited to this. I'm inclined to think that if it was so out of character that he felt enough remorse to come here and talk about it, it's not. Or if it is, it's early enough in the game that some self-reflection is a good first step.

So I gave him the advice to sit down, think about what he did and the situation in general (calling in his spouse if he thinks it is warranted) and then find a better way to do it next time while avoiding skewing or amplifying the issues by wallowing in something out of proportion which makes it harder to deal with an emotionally charged situation rather than easier?

Others have pointed out to him the fallacy in his thinking that his child did it on purpose. This is good practical information as well.

My practical advice for you is to not be judgmental and over-the-top about situations you didn't see and have little or no referent for.

You responded better to this than I could have. Your final sentence is great advice to us all.

momgamer wrote:

The sentence that raised a red flag in your first post for me was, "In adult life, the naughty step is the chair in the anger management counselor's office."

Well I can confidently say that's certainly an example of being judgmental and over-the-top.

I'm not jumping past his being OOC as a human being. I simply can't make that call. And neither can you. So if ignoring = not commenting on nonconstructive stuff that I have no way to assess via this media, then I guess I am.

Sometimes that's the best advice of all: that there might be something here we're not qualified to make the call on.

Yes, we didn't burn him like a witch, but would that really help here?

Wait, who said anything about that kind of response? Where are you getting that from? There's a difference between telling a person something that is hard to hear and attacking that person.

I didn't get the sense that CheezePavilion was judging; just identifying a more general problem that may be manifesting itself in a specific instance. I did not interpret it as a moral judgement. Of course, he can speak for himself; just posting my own impressions.

I think Cheeze's fundamental point is valid; it's worth doing a self-check and think about whether there is a deeper issue here, whether it was an outlying situation (being frustrated and upset) or an outlying behaviour (where being frustrated and upset is normal, but kid-smacking isn't). Like LarryC, it feels like he's just trying to help, not attacking.

And now we've covered that part, right? Can we go back to butt pats?

CheezePavilion wrote:
Jonman wrote:
complexmath wrote:

If you feel you were wrong for having acted that way, apologize and put yourself in time out or whatever you have your kid do when they're acting up.

"I'm going to sit on the naughty step until you tell me that I can go back to the kitchen and play"

In adult life, the naughty step is the chair in the anger management counselor's office.

Hate to break up the bellyaching about how hard it is to be a parent, but um, is this conversation ever going to get around to the reason it was a 'hard day' being a football team that lost late in the game? If you're making mistakes with your kids because of things like your favorite sports franchise losing, that's something to pay attention to.

jd, I realize this may be a lot harder to hear than all the butt-pats going on in this thread, but you've also talked about your anger regarding posts in P&C. Maybe this isn't a parenting issue and is just a general anger issue you're dealing with? If what made you less capable of dealing with your kid than usual was the unavoidable and serious things in life like stress over money or sickness or things of that ilk, that's one thing. If the stressful event is a disappointing result in sports entertainment, that raises some red flags. No pun intended.

Ok, let me give a bit more background and explanation in my defense. Mom was gone on a business trip all week, and though I'm certainly not the bungling dad that the media just loves to portray (you know mom comes home and the kitchen is on fire), it was still a hard week. He was acting like a total brat all day Sunday, including throwing a full on temper tantrum at mass. Usually the wife and I can tag team or put him in the nursery but neither was available. I even ran him around for the first half of the game and didn't think it was going to be unreasonable to try to catch the last 10 minutes without all hell breaking loose. Obviously I was wrong and thanks to some advice here I've come to realize that a lot of what's going on is age appropriate. That's good to hear that my kid is not turning into an abomination like the kid in Dragon Age.

I also want to reiterate that by swat I mean open handed, over the clothes, and just hard enough to get his attention. I know in certain circles that may be considered hardcore violence but having been knocked cold in a martial arts match, chocked out in high school wrestling, and barely surviving lethal situations in the military I don't. Heck, by those standards even getting belted by my dad was really minor.

Now, I'm manning up and willing to admit that there should have been a cooling off period before administering punishment. Also, what I should have done is given him a stricter time out for his earlier tantrum and not gotten on him about peeing his pants. Lesson learned. The wife and I have now agreed that we're ok keeping spanking as the nuclear option, but only using it for dangerous behavior such as running into traffic.

I understand where you're coming from Cheeze regarding P&C, but in my defense things get pretty heated in there. It's hard to keep a level head when you feel some of your most cherished beliefs are utterly getting dumped upon and you are asked to defend the actions of Timothy McVeigh or neo nazis. I like to think that in recent months I've been a decent poster, and that I showed incredible restraint at all the gloating and jeering that came after the election. At any rate, my New Years resolution has been to post as little as possible over there.

Final question for you - are you a parent? I'm not saying you don't have the right to chime in if you're not, but I don't think non parents have any idea of how hard it is.

jdzappa wrote:

I understand where you're coming from Cheeze regarding P&C, but in my defense things get pretty heated in there. It's hard to keep a level head when you feel some of your most cherished beliefs are utterly getting dumped upon and you are asked to defend the actions of Timothy McVeigh or neo nazis. I like to think that in recent months I've been a decent poster, and that I showed incredible restraint at all the gloating and jeering that came after the election. At any rate, my New Years resolution has been to post as little as possible over there.

That's kinda what was in the back of my head, as I think we both have the same incident in mind. It's actually what also moved me to post less over there too.

Final question for you - are you a parent? I'm not saying you don't have the right to chime in if you're not, but I don't think non parents have any idea of how hard it is.

I am not a parent in part because of how hard I think it is. Of course, if it's so hard, maybe the answer is for fewer people to *be* parents in the first place. But now we're circling back round to P&C ; D

I am not categorically against corporal punishment as a mode of discipline; but from experience, it has not been terribly effective in instilling discipline or behavior or in effecting training. As a child, I avoided behavior that led to spanking, but that behavior generally was "be honest with Mom and Dad."

In parenting in my turn, I have so far only had to slap my younger daughter in the face once. This was the disciplinary measure I decided on in response to continued violent expression on her part, targeted at her older sister and mother. It seemed to me that she lacked the empathy to understand what she was doing, so I slapped her, just as she had just done to her sibling. I explained the purpose behind the action and asked her to reflect that what she felt is what her sister and mother felt. Never had to do it again.

This was not my "nuclear option." It was a considered response with a definite end and purpose. Per my experience, the nuclear option is always parental disapproval. Nothing hurts so much as your mother or father expressing dislike of you. As a child, I would rather have taken whips and chains rather than the true, honest hate of my parents.

My position here continues to be that the move in question was detrimental to discipline and modeling, which makes parenting harder almost immediately, and definitely in the long run. I have no moral objections to corporal punishment.

I am not going to judge jd.

I'll just say what I see as the worst aspect of this incident: the kid has been given a message that football is somehow important. Yuck! Please! There already far too many people in this country who harbor this tragic delusion!

My son is 8, I can't remember 3. What I never wanted was for him to fear me. I do remember misplacing some aggression on him, once. You know why it was once? Because afterward, I apologized to him and tried to explain that sometimes Dad's don't do right. But good Dad's try not to do the same wrong twice. And are sorry they did it.

Bonus: I got a big hug, which I needed.

Brothers and sisters, one conversation like that will likely cure you for good.

Regarding spanking in general, I won't go so far as to say that it's always counterproductive, but like all punishments it really depends on the kid. In an extreme case for two of our kids we tried it while we were looking for an effective deterrent and it absolutely didn't work in either case. Time outs only work on one of our kids as well. The nuclear option for our kids is taking away the thing they like most and having them earn it back.

My kids get off on all of the wrong things.
They think disobeying is funny.
My wife bows and scrapes to my 4 year old, and now I can't stand his behaviour.

On top of that they're into the potty humour. Everything is butt this and fart that.

I work a lot of hours and my wife does most of the childcare. She is way too soft, and makes threats to motivate them, but never follows through. They now know there are no meaningful consequences.

I'm at the point where I'd rather unplug because 1-they now anger me so fast and so thoroughly, I shouldn't be dealing with them, and 2-my wife complains about how hard on them I tend to be.

Has anyone had to recover from this?
Honest to god, I want to call Supernanny. My life is like an episode of that show when the kids are running things.
I'm becoming the father who has withdrawn and given up just like most episodes.
I'd honestly rather work than deal with it.

The red flags are up.
I need a strategy to stop this.

Oh, on top of it my 6 1/2 hear old kicked me in the junk so hard and so squarely it buckled my knees. A complete surprise. He was coming down the stairs and jumped toward me. I had to catch him to stop the fall down the stairs, and at the same time came the hoof. I left the room for fear of acting in anger and agony. That instinctive response is hard to override under those circumstances. I have't been hit there so solidly since I played football.

Ghostship wrote:

My kids get off on all of the wrong things.
They think disobeying is funny.
My wife bows and scrapes to my 4 year old, and now I can't stand his behaviour.

On top of that they're into the potty humour. Everything is butt this and fart that.

I work a lot of hours and my wife does most of the childcare. She is way too soft, and makes threats to motivate them, but never follows through. They now know there are no meaningful consequences.

I'm at the point where I'd rather unplug because 1-they now anger me so fast and so thoroughly, I shouldn't be dealing with them, and 2-my wife complains about how hard on them I tend to be.

Has anyone had to recover from this?
Honest to god, I want to call Supernanny. My life is like an episode of that show when the kids are running things.
I'm becoming the father who has withdrawn and given up just like most episodes.
I'd honestly rather work than deal with it.

The red flags are up.
I need a strategy to stop this.

Oh, on top of it my 6 1/2 hear old kicked me in the junk so hard and so squarely it buckled my knees. A complete surprise. He was coming down the stairs and jumped toward me. I had to catch him to stop the fall down the stairs, and at the same time came the hoof. I left the room for fear of acting in anger and agony. That instinctive response is hard to override under those circumstances. I have't been hit there so solidly since I played football.

You are not alone in your feelings.

I've just recently resolved a situation heading that way in my own family last year. It was the second time I had to do so. I can relate, and I can tell you what I did, but I'm not sure it would apply; I'm not sure how I resolved it would even be legal in your country.

I saw the necro on the thread and thought for sure the wife posted about her day. Apparently the kids' secret twin language is that of busting balls.

My wife is the softie and I'm the hard-ass. She does discipline them, though, so it's not exactly the same situation.

I think the best you can do is discipline without emotion. Lay out consequences for behaviour and follow through, quickly and ruthlessly. If you wait until you're angry for both threats and punishment, you're likely to a) threaten things you don't want/aren't willing to actually do, and b) over-punish when you finally do. Tell them what the consequences of their behaviour will be, and then ensure that they understand that you'll back up your words with action. Don't be mean about it, don't be apologetic about it; be matter-of-fact, business-like. "I told you I was going to X, so this is X."

Also recognize that (as I'm sure you know), nothing happens quickly when it comes to modifying children's behaviour. It will take some time before they really believe you, and then they'll push to see how serious you are about it. Be firm and be consistent, and eventually they'll learn that you mean what you say and that they can't get away with those behaviors when you're around.

Oh, and talk to your wife (when the kids are down, obviously) about what you plan to do, and what you'd like from her in terms of support. It may be that the best you'll get from her is an agreement to not interfere - which is crucial; don't cut each other down in front of the kids - but you may find that she's willing to try new things if she also feels like things are out of control. Firm and consistent; it'll work more easily and more quickly if you both do it.

Sucky situation, dude. It's not fun, but I think it is necessary. I'm sorry that it's reached such an ugly point for you, but retreating from the situation won't help anyone, short term or long.

Google 'positive parenting', or 'Triple P' and see if any programs are running in your area.

It's what Super Nanny bases a lot of her 'stuff' on. It sounds touchy feely, but it's based on solid child behavior practice.

It works to 'time-outs', the use of a 'naughty step/mat'. More importantly, it helps parents understand the need for structure, and consequence, in dealing with kids and setting positive rewards as consequences for 'good' behaviours.

It sounds a little passive aggressive, but it might help you out Ghostship to read through them 'together' with your wife, and strategise how to work with the kids 'together'. That way, you can her a little closer to how you want the kids dealt with, and it might also give her some tools and strategies to work on the issue too.

Don't forget though, the stay at home part is a tough gig. As a Dad doing it recently, I hear my old words coming out of my wife's mouth sometimes when she comes home. "I leave, and they're screaming, I come home home, and they're still screaming". A lot happened between those two points of contact.

Also, I believe that kids frustrate the crap out of us beyond the 'terrible twos'. I'm now through the 'throw down threes' with both of them, my youngest is ahead of the curve as she enters the 'f*ckwit fours' and my eldest is very comfortable in her relatively new home of the 'f*ck you fives'.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Sucky situation, dude. It's not fun, but I think it is necessary. I'm sorry that it's reached such an ugly point for you, but retreating from the situation won't help anyone, short term or long.

GS, this is my nightmare scenario, honestly. I haven't been at this long enough to have any idea beyond conjecture about what to do but what I do know is, unless you and your wife are presenting a united front, any moves you make are going to be useless. Your kids are old enough to be able to identify a good guy and a bad guy.

You and your partner need to be together on this or... or, well, your current situation, I guess.

I've been the kid in this situation. Let me tell you how it ends with the dad takes a step back:

The kid still loves him. Still respects him. But honestly? He isn't that important because he stopped being a father figure a long time ago.

At least that's where I'm at now. I sincerely hope that isn't the aftermath of your situation here. I also hope I'm helping.

Talk to your wife. I would bet money that she doesn't think she's surrendered to the situation, she thinks she's coping. Try and work that out. If that means you taking a couple weeks off or working less hours, put that time in.

Anyway, good luck.

oilypenguin, thank you.

GhostShip, I've been there. A LOT of my things have been stolen, destroyed or lost by these kids. I love them so much, but have been completely prevented from disciplining them. My wife, I believe, simply hates conflict and would rather smooth over one difficult moment than teach our kids discipline. Well, that, and she has her own problems with control/self control. But the kids knew if they just pretended I wasn't talking for long enough then mom would take care of it.

Her mom also lives with us, which makes it all worse.

I've been able to communicate with my wife, and we have both been doing better. I grounded them on Sunday from all video games until tomorrow, and she has helped me. She even put their game systems out of reach. She grounds them. now. She's not great about seeing it through, but a constant flow of communication with her has also managed to sway her. The great thing is that when I can make discipline stick, the kids actually feel like they have parents and get warm toward me.

I think I knew these were the answers.

I don't have a lot of faith in the naughty step. The only way that would work if I held my boys' hips down on the step; which I would probably do, if it were sanctioned. Of course, restraining like that is not all that comfortable and idea for me. I think its bad in a different way than physical discipline. It tends toward cruel and unusual. They know I'm bigger and can physically control them. They should. They just love being playfully thrown onto a soft bed or couch. If I can pick you and throw you for fun, how does one not make the leap in logic to the opposite of fun? But I guess, if they could actually foresee consequences at that age, then I wouldn't be in this situation to begin with.

One reply above alluded to my wife being stay at home. This is not the case. Our kids are in full time daycare. I suspect that this means cutting daycare in on the discipline reform.

LarryC wrote:

I'm not sure how I resolved it would even be legal in your country.

I f*ckin' love this post, you guys. No irony or sarcasm here.

Ghostship wrote:

One reply above alluded to my wife being stay at home. This is not the case. Our kids are in full time daycare. I suspect that this means cutting daycare in on the discipline reform.

Maybe that's your starting point. Maybe you're both seen as 'inconsequential' in your kids eyes because you're both at odds with their current discipline system used at daycare which is the one they are exposed to for the most amount of time (or conversely, that is one of the problems, if they are allowed to be free range).

We had some problems like that when ours were in Daycare more than at home. It just means adding more players to the united front.

Also, the 'step' part of positive parenting doesn't involve restraint of any kind, otherwise it wouldn't work at all. It's a minor tool that 'can' be used as part of the larger system/approach, it's by no means the entire solution. The approach tends to focus more on rewarding achievements and setting agreed goals (sticker charts, five stickers equals agreed reward, reward could be an extra 10 minutes of TV, that sort of thing). It's primary focus is to make compliance to your rules and structure appear as the 'more fun' option, with long term behavioral change as the outcome, rather than a punishment system.

It worked great for us, but YMMV.

Ghostship wrote:

I don't have a lot of faith in the naughty step. The only way that would work if I held my boys' hips down on the step; which I would probably do, if it were sanctioned. Of course, restraining like that is not all that comfortable and idea for me. I think its bad in a different way than physical discipline. It tends toward cruel and unusual.

I've done it. For me, it was a question of reinforcing - to my children - that I meant what I said and would follow through. If you're in a timeout on the stairs, you will by God stay on the stairs, even if I have to sit on you (which I have done). Did I like it? No, not particularly. But again, it was done without malice and without aggression; it was done because I said it would be. It lasted for some amount of time, I don't remember how long, and then my children learned that they could sit on the stairs on their own, or that they could sit on the stairs and be uncomfortable. Now, they go to the stairs when I tell them to. Now, they scramble when they know they haven't been listening and I start counting.

Is it ruling by fear? Maybe, a little. I'm ok with that. My kids love me and know that I would never hurt them. We play - physically, sometimes roughly - all the time, and we all enjoy it immensely. Me being able to physically control them isn't some kind of looming spectre; at this point, it rarely comes up (though I will still scoop a kid up and put them in their room). Physical discipline virtually never happens anymore. They know when I'm serious, though, and they know that they won't win a battle of wills. It took a while (especially with my youngest, now 4), but the household hierarchy is clear, and that helps a lot.

I think the non-legal approach of LarryC should be utilized.

I think the non-legal approach of LarryC should be utilized.