Sometimes every parent has a bad day, right?

So I need a quick reassurance that I'm not being OOC as a parent. Today was a hard day as my football team lost in the last 10 seconds. My 3-year-old has been a little monster all day and after numerous attempts to try to get him to go potty he instead decides to just let loose all over the couch.

So I give him a few swats on the behind.

Here's my question - was I completely out of line? Or should I cut myself some slack and realize every parent has a bad day now and then?

jdzappa wrote:

So I need a quick reassurance that I'm not being OOC as a parent. Today was a hard day as my football team lost in the last 10 seconds. My 3-year-old has been a little monster all day and after numerous attempts to try to get him to go potty he instead decides to just let loose all over the couch.

So I give him a few swats on the behind.

Here's my question - was I completely out of line? Or should I cut myself some slack and realize every parent has a bad day now and then?

How about both a and b?

I had one of those days today as well. Being a parent is hard, man. Now that I have children myself, I catch myself thinking maybe my Dad wasn't always such a bastard after all.

The longer I have children, the more I know why they drank like fish until the 70's and somehow society decided we shouldn't drink because of our kids.

I'm with Sally. It sounds more like you did it because you were upset rather than you thought it was the best way to correct the behavior. That's where I drew the line. Yeah, it was probably a bit beyond, but kids do that to you, and there would be something wrong with the way your system interpreted The Three Laws if you didn't sometimes react emotionally. You don't have dwell on it, or hang on a cross. Having a sit down with yourself and maybe your spouse about where and how you guys draw that line in your house might be a constructive thing to help you think about handling things the way you want them handled in the future. Then you just have to pick yourself up, shake yourself off and try to do better again. You've only got 20 years or so to go.

As a non-parent I'm very interested in the responses here. It's something my fiance and I have already been discussing.

To me one or two short sharp slaps on the butt seem like an appropriate response to your sons behaviour.

But, if it's inconsistent with how you usually deal with problems because you had a bad day then it doesn't seem like a good thing.

More to the point, corporal punishment at this stage of development could make your life harder down the line as a parent, so to me it's a little less OOC and more unintentional self-punishment. Just to assuage your anger? Not worth the headache. Next time you're angry, just go outside and swat some rugs. You get work done, you get a workout, and it's a safe way to spend time letting the anger work itself out.

Once again, this is not a moral position, as you can see. It's purely practical. If you teach your kid that physical violence is an acceptable manner of expression, you will probably come to regret it later on when they absorb that lesson and begin to express themselves violently. A single instance is probably not too serious - he may or may not remember it. However, repeated instances tend to be effective teachers. It'll probably help if you can show him instances where you're obviously angry, but you keep your cool and express yourself in more effective ways.

It's hard enough to ensure proper training and the right training environment. Having to reverse inadvertent lessons is a huge PITA. I speak from experience. You have my sympathies.

LarryC wrote:

Next time you're angry, just go outside and swat some rugs. You get work done, you get a workout, and it's a safe way to spend time letting the anger work itself out.

LarryC wins the thread. Again.

My 3-year-old has been a little monster all day and after numerous attempts to try to get him to go potty he instead decides to just let loose all over the couch.

Kids just physically don't have control over their bladders, and I'm not sure spanking hurries the process of leaning much at all. I was spanked when I went in my diaper (in fact, it's one of my earliest memories), but it didn't seem to help. I don't think I was particularly scarred by the experience, but I know I was spanked for, hmm, I guess it would have to be at least a month after I first started forming memories that stayed with me. I was really trying, but I just couldn't do it. I remember being immensely proud when I first started to get control, though.

I honestly think my parents could have gotten results just as good by telling me that big boys didn't go in their pants, and promising me a treat if I got it right. I would have tried just as hard, I think.

(is it normal to remember potty training? It's one of the very first things I managed to store permanently.)

If you spanked jdzappa jr. because of the lousy game outcome, well, you blew it. But I doubt you did any permanent harm. Kids are pretty resilient. My parents hated spanking me, but they did it because that's what they were taught they should do, and I never had any doubt that they loved me, or that I was safe.

If nothing else, even when Jr. does make more messes, I bet he doesn't do them on the couch. I couldn't control my bladder, but I'm pretty sure I could arrange to at least not be on any furniture when I went.

Every parent has a bad day. It happens. When I look at how child rearing has changed over my lifetime it amuses me. When I was a kid, a few swats on the behind was the norm for bad behavior. Now society has swung in the other direction and you are a bad parent for using anything stronger than time outs to correct behavior. Cut yourself some slack. Today is a new day. As for the potty training, we finally succeeded when we bought a kids potty chair I placed it in the room where Jr spent most of his time. We found that most of the time, kids don't want to stop what they are doing. Good Luck!

Kiri wrote:

As for the potty training, we finally succeeded when we bought a kids potty chair I placed it in the room where Jr spent most of his time. We found that most of the time, kids don't want to stop what they are doing. Good Luck!

Just make sure this doesn't morph into your child thinking that they can go to bathroom pretty much anywhere they want. We once caught our third child (now 16) peeing on the wall behind the couch. He also had a few occasions during his toddler & preschool years where he would just 'whip it out and go' when in a public place like a city park playground. Couldn't even be bothered to find a convenient tree to pee on.

You're fine. I hope you at least waited until you changed his pants - or at least washed your hands afterwards.

EDIT: ...you monster.

REAL EDIT:

jdzappa wrote:

My 3-year-old has been a little monster all day and after numerous attempts to try to get him to go potty he instead decides to just let loose all over the couch.

That's the key word I didn't really think about the first time. 3-year-olds don't decide to do much, and pee can be surprising. (I don't know why some times it's surprising and sometimes it isn't, but I'm basing this on my own 3-year-old, who on occasion still doesn't make it all the way to the bathroom.) I mean, if he stripped down and aimed at the couch, then blowing your top is totally understandable, and a quick swat isn't going to scar him; if he just peed, then it was probably an accident, in which case you punishing him for it really isn't ok.

Kiri wrote:

Every parent has a bad day. It happens. When I look at how child rearing has changed over my lifetime it amuses me. When I was a kid, a few swats on the behind was the norm for bad behavior. Now society has swung in the other direction and you are a bad parent for using anything stronger than time outs to correct behavior. Cut yourself some slack. Today is a new day. As for the potty training, we finally succeeded when we bought a kids potty chair I placed it in the room where Jr spent most of his time. We found that most of the time, kids don't want to stop what they are doing. Good Luck!

Thanks for the responses all. I agree Kiri - I was spanked on a regular basis and occassionally belted, which I know may shock modern parents. On the flip side, it certainly kept me from doing stuff that some of my classmates did because I had a very healthy fear of the nuclear option being used. Growing up, I also realized that learning how to use violence when necessary - aka punching out the middle school bully or surviving a tour in a warzone - also isn't a bad thing.

But since I'm not sure if it was intentional or not I should have cut my kid more slack. It's good to hear too though that many other parents have suffered similar days. Too often I see all the happy posts on Facebook about how easy and completely fufilling it is to be a parent.

jdzappa wrote:

Too often I see all the happy posts on Facebook about how easy and completely fufilling it is to be a parent.

Bear in mind that many people are far more likely to post positive things on FB than negative.

"My kids are little sh*theads and are ruining my life," isn't a very likely Facebook post from anyone, even those who are parents to little sh*theads.

IMAGE(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/minor_differences4/kids1.png)
IMAGE(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/minor_differences4/kids2.png)

Kids, especially boys, at that age do not have full impulse control over their bladders. They may *want* to, but they are betrayed by a nervous system that may not get the "bladder full" message before the bladder decides it's done, thanks.

You mention the football game in such a way (my team, 10 seconds, etc.) that makes me think you probably took out your frustration on him when he did something annoying, but perfectly normal for his developmental age. Parents do have bad days. We all make mistakes. But, see here's the thing; kids can't be your outlet for your frustrations about stuff that they have no control over...like a local football team, or losing bladder control. Some kids will have bladder issues and night-time wettings well into elementary school; it's not as abnormal as you may think; and it's really not abnormal at 3.

I will say here, that as a parent, corporal punishment is not our go-to solution. I know me; I have a Mediterranean temper. Ergo; time-outs were as much for me as they were for Mancub when he was little. It gave us both time to chill the hell out. Now that he's 10, I wouldn't even consider physical punishment, because I cannot possibly see what he would learn from that, other than the fact that I was big enough to bully him.

I was hit as a kid, sometimes for stuff I did, sometimes because the local football team lost. (Not really football, but because they had a bad day at work, or because I defrosted the strawberries wrong, or what ever excuse it was that day.) What I learned as a kid was that my mother was not a rational actor and couldn't be trusted, and to stay out of arm's reach unless I could suss out her mood first. Because I couldn't hit back, because I was the only person in her life that had less power than she did, I took the brunt of her feeling powerless and angry about being a suddenly single mom. I can see that now...with multiple decades between then and now, and I've forgiven her, but I spent a lot of years doing stupid and death defying things because if I was gonna get beaten anyway, I might as well do something to deserve it, ya know?

No kid should cringe when one of their parents passes them in a hall.

All that said; when it came to potty training, we had the best luck with positive reinforcement. What I did was cut little paper targets out of wrapping tissue, and then floated them in the potty. So, he had could play target practice. Pooping in the potty earned a sticker and some m&ms (his choice), and he got to stick his stickers all over his potty seat, and on a sticker sheet I pasted to the wall next to the potty. Of course, this led to some gaming of the system, to try and get extra m&ms and stickers, but he's my kid, and I wouldn't expect anything less.

So, you have a boy. He's gonna pee on stuff. Just be glad you're past the stage where he pees on you, go get yourself some Nature's Miracle, and give your little dude a hug.

If you're interested in really diving deep, the latest comprehensive research of both positive and negative reinforcement parenting styles suggests that both are equally damaging in slightly different ways. Check out the work of Alfie Kohn for some details: http://www.amazon.com/Alfie-Kohn/e/B... -

Yes, every parent has a bad day. My parents almost never employed corporal punishment (I remember the one and only time I was spanked), and I personally never plan on using it with my daughter. That isn't to say I wont damage her in some equally awful way while trying to discipline or reward her.

Edwin - can you post the link to that comic? I must share!

I have pretty good control of my emotions, but my kids know which buttons to push. I feel for you, jdzappa. Dust yourself off and get back up on that horse, or something.

Symbiotic wrote:

Edwin - can you post the link to that comic? I must share!

That's from Here.

I just wanted to point out that your 3 year old isn't really going to remember this incident in a week, so there's no reason you should spend an inordinate amount of time in mental anguish over it. This is small potatoes.

Parents are human, therefore they do make mistakes. To make things worse, these little buggers we call kids don't even have the decency to come with a manual! (In fact, as any parent of multiples can tell you large portions of the manual would be unique on a per-child basis ) The fact that you care enough to ask the question is a pretty big indication that you're not a bad parent.

Symbiotic wrote:

If you're interested in really diving deep, the latest comprehensive research of both positive and negative reinforcement parenting styles suggests that both are equally damaging in slightly different ways. Check out the work of Alfie Kohn for some details:

Bit of a derail, but I'm really not a big fan of Alfie's work whereas it concerns child rearing. He did a much better job with his books about testing and homework. But for this book; he tends to pick datasets that support his premise; and eliminates research that contradicts it. As well, he does none of his own research and is neither trained in, nor qualified to make some of the pronouncements he declares.

For instance, he claims that you should never say things like "good job" when your kid does something right; his premise being that it builds in "conditional love triggers". Which is just insane, and has zero peer reviewed data to back it up. As well, one of his premises is that a time-out or withheld privilage is actually "love withdrawal", but the research he quotes does not support his claims, and in many cases directly contradicts what he's saying. Also note that many of the studies he quotes as definitive did not have controls, have never been replicated, and in most cases are not peer reviewed. This book - all hat and no cattle.

For a scholarly look at studies on rewards, operant conditioning, classical conditioning, behavioral psychology and children; consider reading Rewards and Intrinsic Motivation: Resolving the Controversy.

I also really like How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk.

I have a lot of the same problems as Duckidiva, so timeouts work for both me and the kids. I then sit down, at eye level, and talk through the scenario, asking if it was a good thing or a bad thing that they did.

Would you like your sister to do that to you? Would you push her back if she did that to you? How about next time, you don't do that, and then she won't do this.

Talking through the scenario and offering options helps to retrain their actions through role playing, and also gives them some insight and empathy around the situation.

I've done that consistently, with both, since they were old enough to sit still long enough to listen. At 3.5 and 4.75, I now have some really thoughtful little people in the house.

It's not an easy track to follow, and god knows there were times I messed up, but if I did, I made sure to let them know that "what they did was not cool, but how Daddy reacted was not cool either". That way, we also got to talk through why Daddy reacted the way he did too, and they don't grow up with the idea that parents are infallible. We also softened good and bad to cool and not cool so that they understand that values aren't binary.

I'm going to echoe what Elycion said. The fact you're taking the time to ask the question not only of yourself, but then publicly, shows you're not a bad parent, you just made a bad call 'this time'. Take it, and learn from it, even if it's just to stop watching the game 'live' or count to 5 before reacting.

Also, mine still test my patience on a regular, sometimes hourly, basis. They can turn from angels to arseholes in the blink of an eye, and they exhaust me mentally like nothing else I've ever experienced. I've had days where contemplating a 'drink and a lie down' at 9am where not uncommon too. Parenting is a tough gig, maybe one of the toughest, but we owe it to the little mites to be the best custodians of their wellbeing we can be, usually at the expense of our own.

I also have to keep reminding myself that they are just kids. The 3.5 year old didn't make it to the toilet in time yesterday, which upset my wife as it was Sunday afternoon, and she just wanted to relax before returning to work the next day. "Why would she do that, pee all over the floor like that?". The only logical explanation I had was "because she's only 3.5 and accidents happen". She's glad I'm doing the stay at home Dad thing, as she's not too good at the pragmatic/zen/chilled parent style of dealing with them.

Good luck jd.

I skimmed, but did you clean before you smacked?

m0nk3yboy wrote:

...you just made a bad call 'this time'. Take it, and learn from it, even if it's just to stop watching the game 'live' or count to 5 before reacting.

Pretty much this. You don't like the thing you did, hence the reason you're here. Learn from it and think about different ways you could tackle the situation. It's good to question the things you do. It helps you improve and work out better ways of doing things.

CheezePavilion wrote:
LarryC wrote:

Next time you're angry, just go outside and swat some rugs. You get work done, you get a workout, and it's a safe way to spend time letting the anger work itself out.

LarryC wins the thread. Again.

Really have to agree here as well. They're going to get under your skin. They're exceptionally good at it. Being a parent is as much about teaching yourself as it is about teaching your kids.

If you feel you were wrong for having acted that way, apologize and put yourself in time out or whatever you have your kid do when they're acting up.

complexmath wrote:

If you feel you were wrong for having acted that way, apologize and put yourself in time out or whatever you have your kid do when they're acting up.

"I'm going to sit on the naughty step until you tell me that I can go back to the kitchen and play"

Jonman wrote:
complexmath wrote:

If you feel you were wrong for having acted that way, apologize and put yourself in time out or whatever you have your kid do when they're acting up.

"I'm going to sit on the naughty step until you tell me that I can go back to the kitchen and play"

You guys laugh, but I have done something very similar. Not always necessarily because I had punished them too much or the wrong way, but because I realized I was totally beyond able to deal with them. Once they're verbal, you modelling dealing with your own emotions is very effective in helping them realize they need to deal with theirs and showing them good ways to do it. And having them see their actions affect you is helpful in them learning their actions have weight.

You have to be careful when and how you do it so it doesn't turn into a toxic guilt-trip or a power struggle.

I also have found that some of my "failures" turned out to be great successes in the long run. I think I've told the story about what happened when I lost my temper and said I was going to eviscerate them that one time.

And even if all it does is make you think twice the next time it's still valuable.

Jonman wrote:
complexmath wrote:

If you feel you were wrong for having acted that way, apologize and put yourself in time out or whatever you have your kid do when they're acting up.

"I'm going to sit on the naughty step until you tell me that I can go back to the kitchen and play"

In adult life, the naughty step is the chair in the anger management counselor's office.

Hate to break up the bellyaching about how hard it is to be a parent, but um, is this conversation ever going to get around to the reason it was a 'hard day' being a football team that lost late in the game? If you're making mistakes with your kids because of things like your favorite sports franchise losing, that's something to pay attention to.

jd, I realize this may be a lot harder to hear than all the butt-pats going on in this thread, but you've also talked about your anger regarding posts in P&C. Maybe this isn't a parenting issue and is just a general anger issue you're dealing with? If what made you less capable of dealing with your kid than usual was the unavoidable and serious things in life like stress over money or sickness or things of that ilk, that's one thing. If the stressful event is a disappointing result in sports entertainment, that raises some red flags. No pun intended.

Or maybe he's already acknowledged that is part of the problem and the rest of us have already moved on to practical advice for moving forward that might not make the problem worse?

momgamer wrote:

Or maybe he's already acknowledged that is part of the problem and the rest of us have already moved on to practical advice for moving forward that might not make the problem worse?

Nope. The rest of you have moved on before asking a question that seriously needs to be asked. Maybe it will turn out to be nothing, but if you're not asking the question of whether this is about parenting or about a more general anger issue, you're doing him a pretty big disservice. You're all so quick to give him reassurance that he's not being OOC as a parent that you're jumping right past whether he's being OOC as a human being.

If you're giving him practical advice, then where's this practical advice: stop watching football if it's going to get you that upset.

duckideva wrote:

For a scholarly look at studies on rewards, operant conditioning, classical conditioning, behavioral psychology and children; consider reading Rewards and Intrinsic Motivation: Resolving the Controversy.

I also really like How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk.

Thank you - I'll check them out! I don't think Alfie's stuff is 100% perfect, but a lot of it resonates with me (researched or not) and underlines the style of parenting we hope to achieve.

CheezePavilion wrote:
momgamer wrote:

Or maybe he's already acknowledged that is part of the problem and the rest of us have already moved on to practical advice for moving forward that might not make the problem worse?

Nope. The rest of you have moved on before asking a question that seriously needs to be asked. Maybe it will turn out to be nothing, but if you're not asking the question of whether this is about parenting or about a more general anger issue, you're doing him a pretty big disservice. You're all so quick to give him reassurance that he's not being OOC as a parent that you're jumping right past whether he's being OOC as a human being.

If you're giving him practical advice, then where's this practical advice: stop watching football if it's going to get you that upset.

Since I wasn't in his living room I can't vouch that the football was actually the problem. You can't either. He was there and he may not even know. That's the problem with emotional issues. You have no notion if this is a general issue, or just limited to this. I'm inclined to think that if it was so out of character that he felt enough remorse to come here and talk about it, it's not. Or if it is, it's early enough in the game that some self-reflection is a good first step.

So I gave him the advice to sit down, think about what he did and the situation in general (calling in his spouse if he thinks it is warranted) and then find a better way to do it next time while avoiding skewing or amplifying the issues by wallowing in something out of proportion which makes it harder to deal with an emotionally charged situation rather than easier?

Others have pointed out to him the fallacy in his thinking that his child did it on purpose. This is good practical information as well.

My practical advice for you is to not be judgmental and over-the-top about situations you didn't see and have little or no referent for.

I think jdzappa already knows he was in the wrong or he wouldn't have started this thread. And there's no way to lessen the feeling of guilt for having acted on a bad impulse with your kid, though that's probably a good thing since the guilt helps prevent future mistakes. But recognizing that every parent does this at some point, the important thing is figuring out how to deal with it in the most constructive way possible.

Giving yourself a time out (or the disciplinary equivalent) accomplishes a number of things. It reinforces the rules that the kid is already being taught to follow, shows that parents do make mistakes, that parents aren't above the law, demonstrates an appropriate way to react when something does happen, gives everyone a chance to cool down, and provides an opportunity to show the kid you're sorry and talk to them about things when they're feeling more inclined to listen than when they're on the receiving end of the time out. Taken a step further, you can give yourself a time out preemptively as an opportunity to cool down. But as momgamer said, it's all in how this is presented to the kid. In parenting parlance, you want to make it a teaching moment.

And obviously, this isn't something you do all the time. Being sorry doesn't make things better, it just keeps them from being worse.