Steam Box Catch-All

Jayhawker wrote:

I'm really confused. You can hook a PC to your TV right now and play Steam games. If Valve wants to do a console, why do they have to be so convoluted about it?

And why is there this much excitement from the PC crowd for a console just because Valve is doing it? This mostly sounds like Valve trying to solve what console makers figured out a long time ago, and their attempt to differentiate just seems like it is making PC gaming on your TV worse.

As I described above, I'm not really of the PC crowd but as a console jockey without a gaming-capable computer or the money/need to buy one, but with an interest in the platform, it would be an affordable and simple way for me to get into it properly, in the style I prefer to play (couch + TV).

Long sentence is long.

To add to that, what a Steam Box would take care of that the console makers won't (for their business reasons) is an open platform, the broadest range of games, and probably-user-upgradeable-hardware—and in the small, simple package like a console.

For someone who can't afford or justify a new computer, but could afford a new console when the time comes, it's a really tantalizing idea.

@Jayhawker: I'm interested in the Steam Box mostly to see what Valve does (and they usually do interesting things), but I don't think I'm in the market for something like what Gabe described in his interview and certainly not the Xi3 "Piston" product. I think ultimately I'd roll my own hardware instead of buying a pre-made server, but I'm probably the exception. Currently, I'm lucky enough to live in a place (and with someone) where I was able to setup my PC within a short HDMI cable run and still within wireless controller range.

heavyfeul wrote:

I think Valve already has a "console" with Big Picture. It needs some work, but it is becoming very close to a console within Windows.

PCs won't ever hit "insert disc and go" ease of use like consoles though. You just can't guarantee everyone is going to have a smooth experience when you have a heterogeneous install base. But things are a lot better now than the DOS or Win9x era by a wide margin. In fact, things are so much better than playing DOS games is incredibly easy!

That said, Steam has made some tremendous in-roads here for which they deserve mad props.

Jayhawker wrote:

I'm really confused. You can hook a PC to your TV right now and play Steam games. If Valve wants to do a console, why do they have to be so convoluted about it?

I think Valve is making some tactical errors here myself, but that may just be because the picture isn't entirely clear yet. I think what most of us expected was a "Valve console," and while it seems that we will get this, Valve's making things confusing by focusing on their partnership with manufacturers who make any sort of living room PC. I wonder if this is partly a stopgap due to delays in their own "real" console; they want to get the idea of a Valve console out there generally before the 720/PS4 actually exist.

And why is there this much excitement from the PC crowd for a console just because Valve is doing it? This mostly sounds like Valve trying to solve what console makers figured out a long time ago, and their attempt to differentiate just seems like it is making PC gaming on your TV worse.

I can't speak for everybody, but I really want Linux gaming to succeed. A Valve console which runs Linux is a massive step forward in that respect. Not to mention, this has something no console maker does (unless you count the PS3/Vita combo or the doomed Onlive service): cross platform support. You buy a game to play on your PC, your saves go into the "cloud," you can pick it right up later in your living room.

Outside of this, choice is always good for consumers, and at the very least "console gamers" should be happy that there's now a third choice to keep the existing two honest/price competitive.

I wonder if they'll go down the Google/Android route, where they have a 'branded' Valve 'console', running their software, and marketed by themselves, but other manufacturers can also make their own 'Valve approved' console with the same software, and a rough guideline on hardware. Obviously not as open as android, or there'd be some pretty horrific devices out there.

It will be very interesting to see where this goes.

I think what makes more sense to me is less a dedicated "box" but rather a Linux based settop that essentially streams over wifi games you have installed in Steam.. either through Valve dedicated server farms (unlikely since thats the OnLive model) or directly through you PC with Steam Client (PC, Mac, or Linux) installed.

There would be wireless keyboard/mouse support (think a Phantom Lapboard) as well as Gamepad. This to me is the most cost effective and easy to "sell" concept to gamers. A quick and easy way to get your Steam Big Picture mode gaming to your HDTV in the living room/basement without the need for a dedicated HTPC that can cost upwards of $600+

TheGameguru wrote:

I think what makes more sense to me is less a dedicated "box" but rather a Linux based settop that essentially streams over wifi games you have installed in Steam.. either through Valve dedicated server farms (unlikely since thats the OnLive model) or directly through you PC with Steam Client (PC, Mac, or Linux) installed.

There would be wireless keyboard/mouse support (think a Phantom Lapboard) as well as Gamepad. This to me is the most cost effective and easy to "sell" concept to gamers. A quick and easy way to get your Steam Big Picture mode gaming to your HDTV in the living room/basement without the need for a dedicated HTPC that can cost upwards of $600+

As I said above I would buy just such a device in a flash. Could clear out all sorts of cruft and boxes from the living room.

Maybe this will be compatible to it:

Nvidia Project Shield

PRG013 wrote:

Maybe this will be compatible to it:

Nvidia Project Shield

Rather than that, I wish the Steam Box would just use that tech to stream to your TV from your powerful desktop rig. For those people who don't want to deal with a really long HDMI cable, it sure would be nice. If that tech was built into the Big Picture mode, say, you could do something like click on big picture mode and then select "output to steam box" or something. That'd be sweet. You wouldn't have to worry about keeping a keyboard/mouse in the living room or anything because you'd be in big picture mode. All you would need is a wireless controller. Yeah, there would be a bit of latency, but it probably wouldn't be a huge issue.

Edit: That also skirts the Linux on Steam Box issue for most existing Steam users. It would make it a more viable platform until more games get developed with Linux in mind.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:
PRG013 wrote:

Maybe this will be compatible to it:

Nvidia Project Shield

Rather than that, I wish the Steam Box would just use that tech to stream to your TV from your powerful desktop rig. For those people who don't want to deal with a really long HDMI cable, it sure would be nice. If that tech was built into the Big Picture mode, say, you could do something like click on big picture mode and then select "output to steam box" or something. That'd be sweet. You wouldn't have to worry about keeping a keyboard/mouse in the living room or anything because you'd be in big picture mode. All you would need is a wireless controller. Yeah, there would be a bit of latency, but it probably wouldn't be a huge issue.

Edit: That also skirts the Linux on Steam Box issue for most existing Steam users. It would make it a more viable platform until more games get developed with Linux in mind.

Im pretty sure the streaming functionality you describe was actually shown right there on stage with the Shield. It was built right into that controller. You should really watch the CES presentation.

Thin_J wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:
PRG013 wrote:

Maybe this will be compatible to it:

Nvidia Project Shield

Rather than that, I wish the Steam Box would just use that tech to stream to your TV from your powerful desktop rig. For those people who don't want to deal with a really long HDMI cable, it sure would be nice. If that tech was built into the Big Picture mode, say, you could do something like click on big picture mode and then select "output to steam box" or something. That'd be sweet. You wouldn't have to worry about keeping a keyboard/mouse in the living room or anything because you'd be in big picture mode. All you would need is a wireless controller. Yeah, there would be a bit of latency, but it probably wouldn't be a huge issue.

Edit: That also skirts the Linux on Steam Box issue for most existing Steam users. It would make it a more viable platform until more games get developed with Linux in mind.

The streaming functionality you describe was actually shown right there on stage with the Shield. It was built right into that controller.

That's true, I guess. I just don't want to have a stupid screen on the controller or have to plug the controller into the TV with a cord.

Edit: It's just a really weird thing for Nvidia to make. I feel like they really should have created something like I tried to describe. Basically, they just create a way eliminate a super long HDMI cable. I see a much larger market for a product like that. Why would you want to play a game on the controller screen when you've got a big TV or monitor right there in the house. Maybe you can hook it up to the TV and use a different wireless controller somehow? I didn't watch the presentation, I just listened to the PCper CES podcast and they discussed there skepticism.

I'll give the presentation a watch.

PRG013 wrote:

Maybe this will be compatible to it:

Nvidia Project Shield

Probably, since Gabe specifically name-dropped NVidia's Kepler architecture in his Verge interview. I don't believe AMD has anything like this in the works right now, although it probably wouldn't be hard for them to do since they've been focusing on driving multiple monitors since the 5000 series. Streaming additional screens shouldn't be much different.

PRG013 wrote:

Maybe this will be compatible to it:

Nvidia Project Shield

Yeah, I started a thread on that over here. In the second post there I linked to an article where someone directly talked about it working with the Steam Box. There definitely seems to be some synergy going on there.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

Edit: It's just a really weird thing for Nvidia to make. I feel like they really should have created something like I tried to describe. Basically, they just create a way eliminate a super long HDMI cable. I see a much larger market for a product like that. Why would you want to play a game on the controller screen when you've got a big TV or monitor right there in the house.

I literally could not agree more. Although I feel the answer to "why did they do that?" is "WiiU Tablet"

DanB wrote:

Although I feel the answer to "why did they do that?" is "WiiU Tablet"

Plus they have spare GPU cycles to burn on the new hardware as single desktop monitor resolutions have barely moved past 1080p.

DanB wrote:
tuffalobuffalo wrote:

Edit: It's just a really weird thing for Nvidia to make. I feel like they really should have created something like I tried to describe. Basically, they just create a way eliminate a super long HDMI cable. I see a much larger market for a product like that. Why would you want to play a game on the controller screen when you've got a big TV or monitor right there in the house.

I literally could not agree more. Although I feel the answer to "why did they do that?" is "WiiU Tablet"

So, you're saying they're in a "who can come up with the stupidest gimmick" contest with Nintendo, and this is how they up the ante?

Is the picture of the little box we've been seeing a Steambox? Or just one of the version, like a data/input streamer box or something?

I cannot, do not believe that a computer box that's probably smaller than my CPU Heatsink is not going to explode after an hour of proper gaming.

Pikey26 wrote:

Is the picture of the little box we've been seeing a Steambox? Or just one of the version, like a data/input streamer box or something?

I cannot, do not believe that a computer box that's probably smaller than my CPU Heatsink is not going to explode after an hour of proper gaming.

Apparently, it is a version being optioned by Valve, but it isn't necessarily indicative of the final product. From the sound of things, there may be a few tiers of Steamboxes, from what would basically be a wireless KVM switch, to a full-blown SFF PC.

Pikey26 wrote:

Is the picture of the little box we've been seeing a Steambox? Or just one of the version, like a data/input streamer box or something?

I cannot, do not believe that a computer box that's probably smaller than my CPU Heatsink is not going to explode after an hour of proper gaming.

The Ouya Dev consoles look to be about the same size and shape

DanB wrote:
Pikey26 wrote:

Is the picture of the little box we've been seeing a Steambox? Or just one of the version, like a data/input streamer box or something?

I cannot, do not believe that a computer box that's probably smaller than my CPU Heatsink is not going to explode after an hour of proper gaming.

The Ouya Dev consoles look to be about the same size and shape

That thing is an Android machine though isn't it? Aka, probably slightly more powerful than your average phone?

When I hear 'Steam Gaming' I am thinking powerhouse titles and/or titles that push 'current gen' systems, that's what I meant by 'proper gaming.'

DanB wrote:
Pikey26 wrote:

Is the picture of the little box we've been seeing a Steambox? Or just one of the version, like a data/input streamer box or something?

I cannot, do not believe that a computer box that's probably smaller than my CPU Heatsink is not going to explode after an hour of proper gaming.

The Ouya Dev consoles look to be about the same size and shape

That thing is an Android machine though isn't it? Aka, probably slightly more powerful than your average phone?

When I hear 'Steam Gaming' I am thinking powerhouse titles and/or titles that push 'current gen' PC systems, that's what I meant by 'proper gaming.'

Pikey26 wrote:
DanB wrote:
Pikey26 wrote:

Is the picture of the little box we've been seeing a Steambox? Or just one of the version, like a data/input streamer box or something?

I cannot, do not believe that a computer box that's probably smaller than my CPU Heatsink is not going to explode after an hour of proper gaming.

The Ouya Dev consoles look to be about the same size and shape

That thing is an Android machine though isn't it? Aka, probably slightly more powerful than your average phone?

When I hear 'Steam Gaming' I am thinking powerhouse titles and/or titles that push 'current gen' PC systems, that's what I meant by 'proper gaming.'

True enough but by the time a Steam box (or steam certified box) actually gets to us I'm sure you could get the contents of today's fanciest laptop in to a 3rd of the space.

If you're making custom boards for smaller spaces most current desktops could be shrunk considerably. As long as you can get the device cooled then the footprint of PC really doesn't need to be bigger than a typical SSD.

DanB wrote:

As long as you can get the device cooled then the footprint of PC really doesn't need to be bigger than a typical SSD.

Usually that comes at the expense of overall performance though. The low-end specs on the Xi3 are probably fine for some games, but I'm not sure you'd be able to play things like Farcry 3 with all the bell n' whistles enabled.

shoptroll wrote:
DanB wrote:

As long as you can get the device cooled then the footprint of PC really doesn't need to be bigger than a typical SSD.

Usually that comes at the expense of overall performance though. The low-end specs on the Xi3 are probably fine for some games, but I'm not sure you'd be able to play things like Farcry 3 with all the bell n' whistles enabled.

Sure, but we're at least 18 months away from a Steam box being purchasable, that's a lot of time for things to get smaller and cheaper. The GPU in my desktop at the moment is at least a year old and runs Far Cry 3 on full specs easily and it wasn't even close to top of the range when I bought it.

We've either already crossed or are about to cross the line where the graphical fidelity isn't no longer bounded by the size/speed of your GPU, it's mostly bounded by the sheer man hours needed to create the art assets. Dev teams aren't going to jump in size by a factor of 10 for the coming new console generation so the likelihood is that a top end GPU available in the next year or so will be good for considerably longer than the equivalent would have been in 2002. The WiiU's graphics capabilities are kind of predicated in that being true.

EDIT: And the Polygon article stated that the Xi3 Steambox was slated to "offer modular component updates" which I assume translates to "you can upgrade the graphics card". Perhaps not, that could mean anything really.

The GPU in my desktop at the moment is at least a year old and runs Far Cry 3 on full specs easily and it wasn't even close to top of the range when I bought it.

Given that [H] ran some pretty thorough benchmarks with FarCry 3 with SLI systems that could NOT run full details at 1600P... and single card systems also not at full details at 1080P I find your statement hard to believe.. unless you are running at significantly lower resolution. Given that 1080P is pretty much the target resolution for HDTV in 2013-14 we will need to see a significant boost in the Low End side of the GPU scheme. Certainly NO APU based or CPU based GPU will be powerful enough in 2014 to run FarCry 3 at max details at 1080P at 30fps locked (let alone 60fps locked)

Just dumping this here as I'm not sure if it's been linked from my skimming. Gamasutra article about gabe newell's steam box plans.

Didn't realize they had a mobile device planned before reading that.

DanB wrote:
shoptroll wrote:
DanB wrote:

As long as you can get the device cooled then the footprint of PC really doesn't need to be bigger than a typical SSD.

Usually that comes at the expense of overall performance though. The low-end specs on the Xi3 are probably fine for some games, but I'm not sure you'd be able to play things like Farcry 3 with all the bell n' whistles enabled.

Sure, but we're at least 18 months away from a Steam box being purchasable, that's a lot of time for things to get smaller and cheaper. The GPU in my desktop at the moment is at least a year old and runs Far Cry 3 on full specs easily and it wasn't even close to top of the range when I bought it.

If they still can't fit 7 year old consoles into that form factor, there is no way they could fit 18 month old PC performance hardware into it. The Wii U is not exactly top of the line hardware and they packed that as tightly as possible. And it's not even free from early hardware issues.

Pikey26 wrote:

That thing is an Android machine though isn't it? Aka, probably slightly more powerful than your average phone?

(Note: your average smartphone is now at least as capable as the current generation of consoles)

gore wrote:
Pikey26 wrote:

That thing is an Android machine though isn't it? Aka, probably slightly more powerful than your average phone?

(Note: your average smartphone is now at least as capable as the current generation of consoles)

Not even close. Where did you here that?

DanB wrote:

Sure, but we're at least 18 months away from a Steam box being purchasable, that's a lot of time for things to get smaller and cheaper.

I know that's the theory, but aren't graphics cards getting longer in the high-end these days?