2012/13 Soccer Thread

"Bert", not "Mario" with regard to the gloves

As regard to Mancini's comment re Mario's popularity or otherwise, I think the answer was given to what was felt to be a facetious question by a member of the media. Personally speaking, I couldn't give a flying f*** about our 'growing global fanbase', in fact I give them no consideration whatsoever. Whether Joe Sixpack in Cleveland or Singapore wears a City shirt, or has even heard of City, is not something that I care about at all or devote any time to considering. The amount of cash generated from overseas TV etc is contractually divided by the Premier League, probably 95% of all merchandise sold is pirated, so whether Mario adds to that or otherwise is not a subject of interest. So the idea of a 'franchise' making pots of money overseas is not really how it works, I don't think.

Here's my take on him. If City had flogged him and bought van Persie with the cash, they'd be 10 points clear at this point in time. But they aren't, so if some Italian club comes in with an offer of £20m plus (which was more likely in summer, given his display against Germany), then I'd take it no questions asked. I think Bert views him as his pet 'project' who requires development, but Balotelli does not seem willing to think about thinks and learn - everything is on display with him. He actually reminds me a lot of what Daniel Sturridge was like when he was at City - everything is about him, which is why Sturridge is unlikely to ever be a great player and I await developments at Liverpool with interest...at the very least it will set Raheem Sterling back.

I presume you mean 'fee' rather than 'free' for Loic Remy, although the £10-15m quoted fee for someone who isn't even in Marseille's starting XI seems a bit steep - Christ, even noted philosopher and internet sage Joey Barton is in their first team. There wasn't much anyone at Newcastle could do about Ba once someone put a £7m release clause into his contract.

Without wishing to seem overly negative (for a change), there are some things that will save Newcastle - Reading, QPR and either Villa or Wigan are all sh1te. I think Villa may well get the drop this year...Lambert has fallen out with their main striker (Bent, who to be fair is somewhat inconsistent), seems to struggle to motivate them and there isn't a natural leader on the pitch. Add that to the fact that Randy Lerner doesn't seem overly interested in investing big bucks in them, and the clouds seem to be moving in.

davet010 wrote:

That Arsenal-Toon game was very odd. Newcastle looked as though they might get it back to 4-4, but they had so many players missing that they'd run out of steam by the end. As it stands, Pardew can thank his lucky stars that neither Cisse nor Ba are off to the ACN, because the cupboard is bare after them two.

Oh, and Obertan is only a good squad player if you are thinking that Newcastle will go down. His 'challenge' on Walcott for Arsenal's 7th was laughable, as was his subsequent standing about like a fart in a trance.

Apologies for the lateness of my reply... I think Obertan's a decent player as the team's 4th-best or so winger, especially with the Europa League going on this year. He's really coming along offensively playing as an inverted winger. He does have too many defensive lapses but going forward he's starting to offer more - he did well to set up Marveaux's goal in the Arsenal drubbing.

Ba leaving has me worried - Pardew played Shola Ameobi up top with Cisse on the wing against Everton which is pretty much inexcusable and won't help matters without Ba. The squad's pretty threadbare - Gigi Bigirimana was the only guy on the subs bench anywhere near Premier League calibre. The good news is it looks like Ashley's getting his head out of his ass and spending money this transfer window: Debuchy in at rightback, according to the Times a free fee agreed for Remy. If they manage to sign a centreback it will be a decent transfer window but I worry Pardew will screw things up with his hoofball to Shola.

That's enough Newcastle-centric stuff for now. Get ready for the "too big to go down" talk.

Footage of Milan's 'friendly' with Pro Patria.

The only way to deal with such muppets. Of course, UEFA underlined their serious attitude to this issue by having Platini announce that any player walking off under such circumstances in Euro 2012 would get a yellow card.

Ugh, fee. £9.5m is what I've seen and it's definitely not a bargain but when you're in a weak negotiating position and desperately needing a striker/attacking winger there's not much you can do. On the Ba transfer, he apparently got a £2 million loyalty bonus from Newcastle. Not a bad contract for him.

I Heard about the Pro Patria thing on Twitter, good for the Mlian players to walk off the pitch. Having players take action in actual matches is the only way FIFA, UEFA, and the like are going to get off their butts and actually do something about racism.

Pro Patria were apparently fined earlier this season for racism-related wrongdoings. Platini and Blatter must be shocked to see that the tiny fine didn't work.

Yes, racism in the Italian league...who'd have thought it.

IMAGE(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/20/article-1389305-01FC42030000044D-489_468x353.jpg)

IMAGE(http://sslazio-guardia.com/cnews/data/upimages/zz_LazioLivorno.jpg)

davet010 wrote:

Yes, racism in the Italian league...who'd have thought it.

IMAGE(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/20/article-1389305-01FC42030000044D-489_468x353.jpg)

IMAGE(http://sslazio-guardia.com/cnews/data/upimages/zz_LazioLivorno.jpg)

i've heard people say scottish stadiums are 'scary/intense', seeing these pictures makes me think maybe there are worse places to go watch football in europe.

davet010 wrote:

"Bert", not "Mario" with regard to the gloves

As regard to Mancini's comment re Mario's popularity or otherwise, I think the answer was given to what was felt to be a facetious question by a member of the media. Personally speaking, I couldn't give a flying f*** about our 'growing global fanbase', in fact I give them no consideration whatsoever. Whether Joe Sixpack in Cleveland or Singapore wears a City shirt, or has even heard of City, is not something that I care about at all or devote any time to considering. The amount of cash generated from overseas TV etc is contractually divided by the Premier League, probably 95% of all merchandise sold is pirated, so whether Mario adds to that or otherwise is not a subject of interest. So the idea of a 'franchise' making pots of money overseas is not really how it works, I don't think.

Here's my take on him. If City had flogged him and bought van Persie with the cash, they'd be 10 points clear at this point in time. But they aren't, so if some Italian club comes in with an offer of £20m plus (which was more likely in summer, given his display against Germany), then I'd take it no questions asked. I think Bert views him as his pet 'project' who requires development, but Balotelli does not seem willing to think about thinks and learn - everything is on display with him. He actually reminds me a lot of what Daniel Sturridge was like when he was at City - everything is about him, which is why Sturridge is unlikely to ever be a great player and I await developments at Liverpool with interest...at the very least it will set Raheem Sterling back.

bah balo, berto, mario, same thing, italians so many hands involved pffft. ok. blargh

anyways, well yeah that's exactly what I thought you thought. (err skip) mancini's been defending this guy with all kinds of ridiculous reasons for a long time now. the club's global appeal or whatever being his latest defense of keeping balotelli... and I just don't understand it.

at this point, conspiracy guy on full throttle here, i m thinking balotelli might be mancini's biggest chink in the armor when it comes to the owners. ok ok put on your tin foil hats too. so there must have been a point where the owners asked mancini wth balotelli was still doing at the club, after which mancini defended him, and then they chained mancini's feet to balotelli's as an ultimatum... i dunno it's the only way i can make sense of mancini's mind-numbingly understanding caring/handling of balotelli so far. we know mancini is capable of completely cutting a player off if need be, we saw that with tavez. maybe it's just my crazy version or maybe it's just simple as when managers in general deflect/lie about their players and/or mishaps (ferguson buying bebe for example). then again his latest coddling came only just BEFORE this media sh*t-storm, so who knows maybe the door's finally been shut on the clown.

Nevermind, I guess I miss-skimmed the articles regarding Mancini's most recent sentiments prior to the incident.

Mancini had claimed in an interview with Gazzetta dello Sport this week that the City owner, Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed al Nahyan, “likes Balotelli because he recognises the talent and he exports the name of City over the world”.

So i guess it's just the Sheikh, and even the royal family have been running out of patience allegedly. Well shouldn't last very long then should he.

With regard to stadiums...I've been to a number of Scottish stadia (Ibrox, Firhill, Clyde and one non-league one) and my experience is that they are mostly half-empty and devoid of any atmosphere whatsoever. Ibrox had about 40k in it, but the match was Rangers - St Johnstone, so after the ritual 5 minutes pre-match 'f**k the Pope and the IRA' bigotry, it was a case of the crowd sitting back, crossing its collective arms and saying 'right, these guys are here to be thrashed, entertain me'. Cue 0-0 draw and boredom. I think the only time you would get scary/intense is an Old Firm derby.

There are a few Italian grounds I wouldn't go to (Lazio's home in the Stadio Olimpico for one - though I'd probably go if it were Roma at home), but even so, avoid the curva and you would be OK. I think if you wanted 'intense' but not 'scary' then the Bundesliga would be a good bet...I've been to a match in the Allianz Arena, and there was 36k and plenty of atmosphere, probably because it was 1860 Munich rather than Bayern. Mates who went to City's game vs Dortmund say that it was a great place to go - like going back to the 80s without the bother.

Offers you just can't refuse.

A Premiership club to City.

"We'll pay Lescott the same as he's on now, if you'll let him come to us for free".

Who was it ? Have a bleedin' guess.

Wonder if that'd work the other way round.

"Ello, Mr Villanova. We pay Messi more than he on now, so long as you let him come to the Etihad for free. Is good idea, yes ?"

Was it 'Arry? But I didn't see any "he's a top top player" headlines recently!

UCRC wrote:

Was it 'Arry? But I didn't see any "he's a top top player" headlines recently!

But of course !!

Rest easy my friend - there's still 25 days of the window left for the fraudster to buy yet more players and receive yet more money that he can't remember transferring to offshore accounts....it's a common problem for chirpy Cockneys.

Been busy so I disagree and agree with everything that has been said.

Saw the majority of the Arsenal game today but will rewatch the second half once its on Arsenal Player.

I think its worth repeating 10000 times what a steal and delight Michu has been so far.

All I can do is shrug when he scores vs Arsenal because its so clinical and its Swansea.

Going back to the Demba Ba deal apparently why his deals have also been structured strangely is that his knees are actually borked and he never passes a physical? Never saw that mentioned here before and I'm horrible at reading most football articles cause well its 90% speculative nonsense.

"What we do not do is pay one player £200,000-a-week. We have kept it closer for all the players, so I guess you can say we have a socialist model and maybe this makes us more vulnerable (to losing players or failing to make star signings).

"We have kept to a structure that makes sense and is defendable when it comes to dealing with every single player. We make exceptions, sometimes, but those exceptions are not too often. If we want to continue to make a profit, we have to respect our structure."

Well that confirms what I already suspected but wasn't out of the horses mouth just yet. Pretty much the piles of cash is there but Wenger is operating the club in his own model. With the guys above him being businessmen its going to be well business as usual this transfer window.

You can have a managers like Fergie who goes to his board ranting and raving for funds because for him all that matters is winning.
You can have owners like City or Chelsea who are not businessmen and already have piles of cash that they want to spend on their hobby.

Arsenal is trapped with neither. Wenger is content to do it the 'proper' way in his mind. Kronke is content with turning profits and someone who knows 10000x more about football to run the club and especially not ask him to splash cash.

I think the best part is 'We do not pay one player 200k a week'. Thats pretty much saying 'With this model we never plan to attempt to employ the best players in the world'.

The game from an economic perspective has clearly passed Wenger. The squad is already behind its competitors in quality and the answer is to earn the revenues first then spend them. God forbid you realize the revenues are going to spike up between catching up in commercial deals and the new premier league deal coming.

Compounded with the fact that it seems Arsenal cant do more than one negotiation at a time. I'm starting to theorize that they only actually have 1 telephone line. My prediction for the transfer window is 0. We will either sign Theo or we will sign a player and Theo will stay while the contract negotiations drag on.

Its honestly maddening at this point.

...because, why settle for half-best when we already have Half Best at the club and just need to offer him more money.

Not quite sure how you come to the conclusion that neither City's owners nor Abramovich are businessmen, jowner. City's owners run an investment group with billions of pounds of assets, and I seem to remember Abramovich got his start in metals (just don't ask about the acquisition process)

davet010 wrote:

Not quite sure how you come to the conclusion that neither City's owners nor Abradmovich are businessmen, jowner. City's owners run an investment group with billions of pounds of assets, and I seem to remember Abramovich got his start in metals (just don't ask about the acquisition process)

Right but they don't treat their clubs as a business and if anything they would know you might have to spend a couple of years in the red to get to black.

Both city and Chelsea did the massive spending sprees to get their squads and reputation up to speed. Arsenal seem busy trying to erase any notion they have a competitive reputation while also stagnating at best the quality of the squad.

UCRC wrote:

...because, why settle for half-best when we already have Half Best at the club and just need to offer him more money.

I assume you mean Walcott? And that's the problem. The financial reality has passed Wenger by so badly that Arsenal are stuck in contract negotiations with a player who should realistically be on the bench. He's been part of something like 30% of Arsenal goals but would be a bench player on United Chelsea and City... If Arsenal are not going to pay him they should be in the market for a better player.

Instead they probably will drag their feet sign no one and be in serious danger of finishing 5th.

jowner wrote:
davet010 wrote:

Not quite sure how you come to the conclusion that neither City's owners nor Abradmovich are businessmen, jowner. City's owners run an investment group with billions of pounds of assets, and I seem to remember Abramovich got his start in metals (just don't ask about the acquisition process)

Right but they don't treat their clubs as a business and if anything they would know you might have to spend a couple of years in the red to get to black.

Both city and Chelsea did the massive spending sprees to get their squads and reputation up to speed. Arsenal seem busy trying to erase any notion they have a competitive reputation while also stagnating at best the quality of the squad.

It's clear that Abramovich is a sugar daddy of the worst kind, terrible for the club in question as well as for rest of the footballing scene.

The sheikh on the other hand, as FILTHY f*cking rich as he is, he's hardly got the attitude/approach of Abramovich other than the amount of money spent to fast-track. Yeah, City also spent an outrageous amount to fast-track to the place where the other top clubs have been in and held for a long time (even as early as the Shinawatra days), but as of after the Premiership win, it's clear that they're not looking to just keep blindly spending til they reach their ultimate goal (a la Chelsea and their Champions League dream), but rather try to cement their place along with the top four in the long term. I don't think we'll see the obscene amount of wages being dangled and piles of money being spent on transfers from City anymore.

The fact that I am still not sure Manicini's job is done for as of this season, speaks for as much about the difference between Abra and the Sheikh's approaches and intentions with their respective clubs.

Fair points, Pikey.

Well, City had to spend to catch up as soon as they got someone with some ding, as they were 15 years behind at that point. I think a much better guide to the plans of the owners is this.

http://www.mcfc.co.uk/News/Club-news/City-Football-Academy

And despite it being the biggest con-job for many a year (have a read through the fine print if you don't believe me...I'm a qualified accountant and I had to read the rules 4 times to get even a sense of how they will work), FFP is going to be coming in and the owners are gearing up for that - I think City reps have had 3 meetings with the Gallic Gonk thus far.

Naw just giving a little cred where it's due, so we look that much better when we take back the title. >:D

I don't have a problem with Roman. If he wants to spend a decent chunk of his questionable fortune on footy so be it. Every penny he doesn't pass on to some brat is fine by me.

Honestly the only issue I have with it is when some shady owner pulls a Portsmouth/Leeds on the fans. Although I'm sure Dave will disagree that Leeds fans deserve much worse ;P

Also credit to the Sheiks knowing to pour money into a football academy. 60 minutes had a special on Barca and La Masia and honestly if you want to build a club for the future thats the road you have to go. A level of loyalty that you start taking wages out of the equation.

Pikey26 wrote:

Naw just giving a little cred where it's due, so we look that much better when we take back the title. >:D

Damn you Pikey, and your nefarious schemes !!

As for Leeds fans, they shouldn't start celebrating the end of Ken Bates yet. Mate of mine was talking to a journalist in Leeds who's been investigating the new owners, and who reckons they are, in his words, 'dodgier than anyone else currently owning a Football League club'.

That said, Ken Bates is an odious troll who will be burning in Hell for all eternity, with any luck.

Bradford for Europe!

And here comes the speculation.

Everton midfielder Marouane Fellaini has a buyout clause in his contract that could lead to him leaving the Goodison Park club.
The club has refused to comment on reports that the midfielder has a £22m release clause in his contract.
The Merseysiders insist they never divulge confidential arrangements of player contracts.
However, there is a fee that could trigger a deal - but it is believed to be higher than £22m.
The 25-year-old Belgian has been linked with a move to Chelsea and Manchester United.

If we lose him, hope it's soon enough that we can use that money on more signings. Everton's squad is definitely a bit threadbare, at the moment.

[Edit to add: and, without Fellaini, selling Rodwell looks less and less like a good piece of business.]

Hm. Fellaini to United? Ugh.. I shudder at the thought.

Also, is it just me or are rumors of Frank Lampard to Manchester United just irresponsibly assinnine? Sure, we do have a bit of an affinity for old-ass midfielders, perhaps too much.... but it's only because they're Giggs and Scholes? Club legends that have been with the club for over two decades? Wtf in right mind would invest in a 34 year old midfielder way beyond his prime? I realize transfer talks often get totally out of control, but this is just beyond... stupid (insert something more awful here).

edit; FFS it's LAMPARD. HE wouldn't go to United even if you kidnapped his family. Ok... maybe he would, but why would anyone do such a thing?

pps. while we're on the subject of transfers. Sneijder isn't coming to United either. I really don't see how he'd fit in, or why we'd need him when we have recently-acquired Kagawa or Rooney freed up by Van Persie for the role. The center MF we sorely need is a Yaya or the certain kind of player that used to pick fights with the other Toure (Keane).

Why would Lampard go to United ? Well, it'd keep John Terry away from Christine Bleakley, for one thing....

Sneijder seems an odd case - no one seems to want anything to do with him. Maybe it's his reported 250k a week wages and demands, but I can't imagine that going to Turkey is anything but a desperation move for him. I can't imagine any Turkish side paying him close to what he's getting now, so unless he thinks that a good set of performances there will get him back on everyone's radar, the logic of it looks dubious.

Meanwhile, let me lighten the mood with some words of wisdom from Daniel Sturridge

"In the Premier League, there is no bigger club than Liverpool."

I knew that the pollutants in the air of Merseyside induce a trance-like state where reality is warped catastrophically, but I didn't realise it worked so quickly. Daniel, the last time Liverpool won the league, you were in nappies. Probably as smart as you are now, but there you go.

davet010 wrote:

Why would Lampard go to United ? Well, it'd keep John Terry away from Christine Bleakley, for one thing....

Sneijder seems an odd case - no one seems to want anything to do with him. Maybe it's his reported 250k a week wages and demands, but I can't imagine that going to Turkey is anything but a desperation move for him. I can't imagine any Turkish side paying him close to what he's getting now, so unless he thinks that a good set of performances there will get him back on everyone's radar, the logic of it looks dubious.

And I can't let that Toure comment go, Pikey - Roy Keane was a class A sh*thouse who never went toe-to-toe with anyone who looked like they could beat up a paper bag. Vieira owned him, and he backed off sharpish when Niall Quinn shoved him about 5 yards in a City-United cup tie in the mid-90s (after Keane had started pushing City's 17-yr old debutant Michael Brown about...I can guarantee he wouldn't have tried that a few years later, because Brown unfortunately took Keane's antics as a template). Keane wouldn't even take on Shearer one on one, he needed to get people like Stam around him for that confrontation.

I was first exposed to United, and club football in general in 97, so I sort of missed the mid 90s and what I assume to have been Keane's formative years. The Keane I know mostly comes from the late 90s to mid 10s. Keane had some flaws, A. He was a bully of both opponents AND those in 'his' locker room, B. He was an arrogant asshat, and C. Was a complete douchebag during his exit.

I am gonna have to disagree about Viera owning him though. I thought it was fairly back and forth. There were couple occasions when Viera did certainly out-play him during his Arsenal days, but I am gonna have to disagree about Viera ever outright 'owning' Keane.

We need a strong enforcer, and as far as I can recall Keane was the only one I ever saw really carry out that role at United in recent times (by recent I mean a little over a decade). Since Keane, we just haven't been able to replace that piece of the puzzle. And for whatever reason, we haven't bothered. Having Ronaldo at his peak for the little extra while we managed to keep him helped us forget about that fact for a bit (and perhaps van Persie will prove to be a similiar 'curse' in that sense), but that gap still hasn't been mended. That's what's really been keeping us from properly challenging for titles on the European stage. I am sick of running into United fans who say 'you can't replace Keane, he'was one of a kind'. Yes we can, maybe not the 'personality' part (that is a tall order), but most certainly his footballing role, and we need to soo bad.

Fletcher I thought was gonna be the one to fill that void, and he was very well on his way there. That is until he caught some mysterious disease and showed up at a conference call a year later looking like Tom Hanks from Philadelphia. There is Carrick, but he's really just a sufficient distributor than a capable cemter midfielder that sufficiently distributes AND gets balls back. That isn't to mention, Carrick's really showing his age, not that speed was ever part of his game, but the little snap he showed in keeping attacks flowing in the past, are long gone. Occasionally he'll thrash up some assist that winds up looking amazing on the replay, but how many side-ways and tempo-killing passes do we get alongside that? We have Cleverly, Kagawa, Anderson (when he's fit/not-fat), and in some ways Rooney that can more than match the little that Carrick does add to our game. He needs to go, make way for a stronger combo of a true enforcer + any one of attacking midfielders we have already at our disposal.

My point really, give us Yaya. We'll pay him what you pay him, and maybe we'll give you back a Nani. He's 'unplayable' you know... especially against Arsenal.

If Fellaini wage demands were reasonable, I'd have Arsene pay close to 20 million for him. I've mentioned couple of times, that Arsenal need a f*cking bulldozer in centre of the park to shield Cazorla and Wilshere and there aren't many players fitting the description around.

edit: Actually, what other good midfielders are out there? De Rossi is said to possible be on the out even though he extended his contract and apart from that I can't think of anyone.

Fellaini doesn't strike me as a 'bulldozer', and I seem to remember that he plays in a more advanced role than holding. De Rossi is a good player but is coming up to 30, and I doubt you could prise him away from Roma for under 20m

I'd be happy if any of these pitched up at the Etihad, and I suspect they'd do what you are looking for as well.

Sven Bender (Dortmund)
Isco (Malaga)
Arturo Vidal (Juventus)

or, and this is not an attempt at humour, Joey Barton. He is actually a better player than you think, is currently easily holding down a first team slot at Marseilles, and if he has actually grown up, then would do that shielding role well. Of course, the big question would be IF he has grown up - I suspect that you might not want to gamble on him if the chips are down, after all this was the guy who got sent off walking off the pitch at half-time in that famous FA Cup tie when City beat Spurs 4-3, and they were 3-0 down at the time.

To clarify - I wouldn't be happy if Barton signed up for City, for 2 reasons.

1. He's a c*ck.
2. He left the club when City were at a low ebb, to 'go to a big club and win things'. How did that work out for you, Joey ?

Fellaini has historically played less advanced than he is this season (fun fact: Psych had started moving him into an AMC role back in his FM2010 game, a move I mocked at the time but turns out to have been prescient).

If we're gonna lose Fellaini, please let it be to a team outside the Premier League. I really don't want to have to face him.