Watching Venezuela Implode

You people are on crack. It was Francisco d'Anconia. Or did y'all not get that far in Atlas Shrugged to the part about the sabotaged copper mine?

Yeah, I'm gonna go with Hanlon's Razor on this one.

The situation is pretty confused at the moment, but it looks like Chavez may not live to be inaugurated. He's been in the hospital in Cuba for weeks. Hopefully the struggle for succession will not instigate a civil war. Hang in there Feeank. :\

Yeah, it's been pretty obvious that he was dying as soon as he went in for the second operation... if cancer survives the first surgery and chemo, you're dead, it's just a matter of how long it takes. He was remarkably selfish to run for office anyway; his doctors would have told him that he had just about zero chance of survival.

I've been wondering for awhile if there's some kind of poison we could have used on him to cause cancer. It could just be coincidence; he was heavyset, and at the right age for cancer anyway, but it just seems so convenient that such an avowed enemy of the US came down with a deadly ailment. We've assassinated many people and fomented many revolutions down there, so wondering if we're still at it isn't exactly wild-eyed lunatic fringe stuff, though wondering if we have something subtle enough to cause cancer probably is.

Ockham's Razor is the best guide. After all, the CIA has plenty of ways to cause sudden death, so why would they let him survive for years as a "hero of revolution"? If they got to him, he'd have a heart attack or stroke, is my guess.

But that would be cliche and certain fan the flames of conspiracy.

Man, down there, we've done so much horrible sh*t that just a simple retelling of all the crap we've pulled would get you eyerolls from many people. They would think you were delusional.

Believe me, I know.

It's gonna be a tough, delicate year, that's for certain.

Axon wrote:

Hugo Chavez has died.

Beat me to it.

Venezuela has a long road ahead of her. They're floating in oil and have a real chance at a fast and powerful comeback.
I actually have a few friends who originated from there, besides Feeank.

I hope sanity prevails, otherwise I'll soon find myself looking for another place to migrate.

Well, as George Takei said, "when it's your time to Hugo, Hugo".

I really enjoyed this related blog post:

The coverage of Hugo Chavez’s death has been almost universally terrible. But this piece from Associated Press business reporter Pamela Simpson takes the cake:
Chavez invested Venezuela’s oil wealth into social programs including state-run food markets, cash benefits for poor families, free health clinics and education programs. But those gains were meager compared with the spectacular construction projects that oil riches spurred in glittering Middle Eastern cities, including the world’s tallest building in Dubai and plans for branches of the Louvre and Guggenheim museums in Abu Dhabi.

The true sign of national greatness–absurdly large skyscrapers and nice things for rich people.

This sums up much about the business community’s beliefs in 2013. Health care and education for the poor is a waste of money. Glitter and income inequality, that’s the ticket.

Especially considering that these skyscrapers, malls, and man-made islands are built in Abu Dhabi and elsewhere in The Emirates by a de-facto slave force.

ChrisLTD wrote:

I really enjoyed this related blog post:

The coverage of Hugo Chavez’s death has been almost universally terrible. But this piece from Associated Press business reporter Pamela Simpson takes the cake:
Chavez invested Venezuela’s oil wealth into social programs including state-run food markets, cash benefits for poor families, free health clinics and education programs. But those gains were meager compared with the spectacular construction projects that oil riches spurred in glittering Middle Eastern cities, including the world’s tallest building in Dubai and plans for branches of the Louvre and Guggenheim museums in Abu Dhabi.

The true sign of national greatness–absurdly large skyscrapers and nice things for rich people.

This sums up much about the business community’s beliefs in 2013. Health care and education for the poor is a waste of money. Glitter and income inequality, that’s the ticket.

Large skyscrapers are job creators.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Especially considering that these skyscrapers, malls, and man-made islands are built in Abu Dhabi and elsewhere in The Emirates by a de-facto slave force.

I didn't even know about this:

Burj Khalifa was built primarily by workers from South Asia. On 17 June 2008, there were 7,500 skilled workers employed at the construction site. Press reports indicated in 2006 that skilled carpenters at the site earned UK£4.34 a day, and labourers earned UK£2.84. According to a BBC investigation and a Human Rights Watch report, the workers were housed in abysmal conditions, their pay was often withheld, their passports were confiscated by their employers, and they were working in hazardous conditions. During the construction of Burj Khalifa only one construction-related death was reported. However workplace injury and fatality in the UAE are "poorly documented".

There is no reason to pay for health care when you can build skyscrapers for poor sick people to jump off of.

ChrisLTD wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Especially considering that these skyscrapers, malls, and man-made islands are built in Abu Dhabi and elsewhere in The Emirates by a de-facto slave force.

I didn't even know about this:

Burj Khalifa was built primarily by workers from South Asia. On 17 June 2008, there were 7,500 skilled workers employed at the construction site. Press reports indicated in 2006 that skilled carpenters at the site earned UK£4.34 a day, and labourers earned UK£2.84. According to a BBC investigation and a Human Rights Watch report, the workers were housed in abysmal conditions, their pay was often withheld, their passports were confiscated by their employers, and they were working in hazardous conditions. During the construction of Burj Khalifa only one construction-related death was reported. However workplace injury and fatality in the UAE are "poorly documented".

Yeah, the strategy was to import workers offering them a good salary, when they show up take their passport away, say "Haha, now you can't leave, good luck surviving on this!" and pay them way less.

Chaves was the worst f*cking thing that could have happened to Venezuela.
Good riddance now that he is dead. Just hoping the next guy (that is from his party)
can't keep a hold. Elections would be good to have again.
If the right guy wins, Venezuela can build its way back again to the level of prosperity
it had before Chavez dug his claws in it.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Especially considering that these skyscrapers, malls, and man-made islands are built in Abu Dhabi and elsewhere in The Emirates by a de-facto slave force.

and are largely 90-100% vacant.. I was in Dubai in 2010 and it was a ghost town.. rows and rows of massive skyscrapers with 100% vacancy.

Sparhawk wrote:

If the right guy wins, Venezuela can build its way back again to the level of prosperity
it had before Chavez dug his claws in it.

I'm not all that familiar with Venezuela's economy, but much of Latin America has long been dealing with a huge gulf between the haves and have-nots. For the have-nots in these places, prosperity was something that applied only to the elites and tiny middle class. That's why these socialist types tended to win elections with promises of land reform and subsidies for the poor, because the private sector wasn't doing anything for huge swaths of their societies.

Funkenpants wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

If the right guy wins, Venezuela can build its way back again to the level of prosperity
it had before Chavez dug his claws in it.

I'm not all that familiar with Venezuela's economy, but much of Latin America has been dealing with a huge gulf between the haves and have-nots. For the have-nots in these places, prosperity was something that applied only to the elites and tiny middle class. That's why these socialist types tended to win elections with promises of land reform and subsidies for the poor, because the private sector wasn't doing anything for huge swaths of their societies.

Chavez made 'popular' promises. Especially housing for the poor. The few he did build were put up in the news. The rest of his millions
went through banks here in Curacao and probably some other Caribbean islands into some private accounts. He was a dictator in every way and corrupt like hell.
Killed the middle class. Killed cacao industry. Educated people leave, lesser educated are imported from Cuba (like so called doctors).
The police is corrupt through and through.
Now, hopefully the middle class can be re-established and people from the lower class can finally find a way to move towards the middle class.
Oil should be used to invest in the country again. Not weapons and corruption.

So, I am actually optimistic, as the only way seem to be up. Or stay stuck, if this situation doesn't change.

Sparhawk wrote:

If the right guy wins, Venezuela can build its way back again to the level of prosperity it had before Chavez dug his claws in it.

Venezuelan history is pretty much a continuous series of clawings. Don't forget the repeated banking crises, excessive inflation, huge government debt, corruption, and cronyism that dominated Venezuela in the 20th century. While Perez and Caldera were ... less bad, they were by no means stellar leaders.

Meanwhile, Cato is monitoring a collapse in the bolivar that has accelerated in the last few days after Chavez' death.

Axon wrote:

Hugo Chavez has died.

How the hell did I miss this over the last few days? O_o

Not sure if you will be able to watch this if you're not in Britain, however the performance of the Republican on this Channel 4 interview/debate, screamed "Can we exploit Venezuela now?"

Chavez is leaving same way he arrived, with a Coup d'Etat, Vice-President Maduro has been "sworn" in as President, even though our constitution clearly states that the National Assembly's President should assume the Presidency in a scenario like this. The NA's President being the most powerful capo in the country anyway, he couldn't care less about assuming so they had our supreme court rule out that it was totally ok to do that.

As a side note, before Chavez election back in '98, Maduro was a subversive bank robber when he wasn't collecting checks for not-driving a bus, his wife (the new first lady and current National Auditor) worked as a secretary at our fbi-like agency, even though she was also involved with the ever-profitable bank robbery.

Venezuela before Chavez had plenty of defects, but we had the most solid democracy in the region, people from all over the continent migrated here running away from dictators of every color and ideology, I grew up among people from every corner of the americas and europe, and most of those people came here as refugees from fascists or communists regimes. Our government was very active in the diplomatic field condemning de-facto regimes in the UN and the OAS, pushing to stablish a regional system of check and balances that would prevent the region to fall again into the grasp of militarism. The fact that so many of those presidents that have come to honor Chavez and hail him as a "democrat" come from the same countries we helped in the past fills me with an infinite sadness.

But hey, as long as we give away our oil for free, we're cool.

I think I remember a story someplace that said that one of the Scandanavian countries was the only one to successfully invest its petro wealth ever. For everyone else, petro wealth has been a curse.

I found this pretty interesting about the Venezuelan economy before and after Chavez' election.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

I found this pretty interesting about the Venezuelan economy before and after Chavez' election.

It all looks very positive. Yet, I knew someone from Venezuela (still recent). Whoever is reaping the benefits of all this, it isn't the people.

Sparhawk wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

I found this pretty interesting about the Venezuelan economy before and after Chavez' election.

It all looks very positive. Yet, I knew someone from Venezuela (still recent). Whoever is reaping the benefits of all this, it isn't the people.

I'm not going to tell people what they are experiencing, but it's often the case people closest to a situation can't see the bigger picture. People complain because no matter how things are they want them to be better.

Lower inflation rates benefit everyone, lower unemployment benefits everyone, higher education rates benefit everyone, lower rates of malnutrition benefit everyone etc etc etc.

I don't doubt there are plenty of hardships, but I thought this discussion would benefit from a few numbers.