I have had it with these Adorable babies on this adorable plane!

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Hi, I'm a father of 6 month old twins. I won't be flying with them for a couple of years. Why? I know how much screaming children bother me and I wouldn't want to inflict them on others.

I've heard some people mention that finding screaming babies unpleasant or complaining about it makes you self-absorbed. I am of the opinion that the opposite is true. Here's the thing, if you bring those kids on the plane, you do so for your benefit (or your family's). You're expecting people to cater to you while you inconvenience them because you have kids. It really is the same core issue as someone wearing too much cologne or an obese person squeezing into 1 seat. They're inconveniencing everyone around them for their own benefit and they expect people to go along with it. Having children does entitle you to a few things and I think a bit more leeway about what should be expected of you. However, I don't think that justifies torturing 200 other people on a long trip because you couldn't make other arrangements.

But then sometimes you have to fly and exceptions must be made. Nothing to be done about that. And yes, strangers should try and be more understanding. But let's not make it a completely black and white issue here, having a kid does not mean you get carte blanche for everything you do. Other people still exist and you should give them the deference you would expect in return.

That's my take, anyway. I made this to save the picture thread.

Eh. I wear earplugs. Seriously. Wear those or slap some headset on and your good to go.

Bring your babies on the plane. Bring all the babies.

You know what? Sometimes babies don't cry on planes. My friend has a temperamental baby... He cries at the drop of a hat when he's unhappy. On the plane (two actually - it was a connecting flight to Japan from western europe!) the baby was perfectly fine!

Otherwise, sometimes you just have to get up and out of the seat and treat the baby to a walk or whatnot. My dad tells this great story of this baby crying on a flight from Canada to the UK where the couple next to the baby (ostensibly its parents) where just trying to ignore it. Eventually, fed up, some older woman just gets up and plucks the baby from its harness and walks up and down the isle with it until it is quiet (about 5 minutes according to the story).

I'm actually fine with a lot of "crying" or "tantrum" episodes because you understand that these happen. However, you also know that in most cases they can be mitigated and sorted out. I dislike it when the parents overreact (which I can also understand because it's stressful, but still...) or don't react to them at all.

Having children does entitle you to a few things and I think a bit more leeway about what should be expected of you.

Now, this. I disagree with... but that's for another thread in P&C.

Strangeblades wrote:

Bring your babies on the plane. Bring all the babies.

Plus, if you crash, they're bite-size and you can cook them more easily! Plus, two words: "good fat".

As someone who flew quite a lot as a kid, and screamed like hell, because of ear pain, I deal with it as an adult

I have severe migraines. Screaming kids tend to be a pretty active trigger. (Even Kannon Jr.).

Here's the thing: Kids cry. Often for no actual discernible reason. As long as you've given a shot at getting the kid calmed down, I don't really care.

Now, if your kid up and bites me and you don't do anything about it, THEN we've got problems. That's not usually a problem on planes, though.

Here's the thing: Life is full of annoyances big and small. I generally dislike people, and I absolutely hate crowds. I still have to go grocery shopping.

oilypenguin wrote:

Other people still exist and you should give them the deference you would expect in return.

This.

But this cuts both ways. I give people the deference to freely move around the country/world with their children.

As was pointed out in the picture thread, the problem is largely of expectation. Why aren't people expecting that the communal transport in which they're renting a sliver of space might also contain children? Or at the very least, might contain sources of loud noises, like infants, or drunk assholes, or, I don't know, jet engines.

Thought experiment.....
Is it less or more acceptable than traveling with infants to travel with someone with Tourette's? What about a mentally disabled adult who has a tendency to get loud and overexcited?

oilypenguin wrote:

However, I don't think that justifies torturing 200 other people on a long trip because you couldn't make other arrangements.

What other arrangements? Take a boat from Seattle to England? Driving to Ohio takes 3 days from where I am. Are you suggesting that instead of flying there for a week's vacation with my family, I spend 6 of those days driving there and back, and one day of actual vacation? That argument only really holds water for short flights, and in those cases, those are the ones where a screaming child is less of an issue.

You're expecting people to cater to you while you inconvenience them because you have kids. It really is the same core issue as someone wearing too much cologne or an obese person squeezing into 1 seat. They're inconveniencing everyone around them for their own benefit and they expect people to go along with it.

Go easier on yourself, and stop being a martyr.

All of that can be said about the people who are annoyed.
In my world the person under the greatest hardship is the one who has the most right to inconvenience others.

If 50 people in a room are having a cocktail party, they owe a duty of care to the guy who collapses of appendicitis, in my opinion. It's wrong to imagine that they are inconvenienced, and are owed an uninterrupted cocktail party.

having a kid does not mean you get carte blanche for everything you do

I admit, that I assume most parents do what we do; which is basically fret stew clamour, wipe, and entertain, and rock, and play stupid games, to make travelling as easy as it can be for everyone.

I will not, however, suffer a dirty look from a 20 something hipster douchebag for the slightest cry. They seem to look away rather fast when I ask them if they'd like something, or perhaps like to help.

Now that the conversation is out of the pictures thread, I will chime in. I'd say the question about whether or not it's socially acceptable to take babies on a plane is irrelevant. People are going to do it no matter what. So, since the likelihood of a screaming baby is medium to high, everyone who's going to bothered by it should take earplugs or noise cancelling headphones with them. There's just no way around it since airlines allow it.

Personally, I agree that a baby's screams are the very annoying. To me, it's the second most annoying sound in the world just behind a dog's whine. At least you can't bring dogs on the plane.

Airlines probably offer earplugs if you ask for them.

If you're so easily annoyed by fat people and babies, then I suggest taking some Xanax before your flight. People forget that planes are a form of public transportation, open to any and all paying customers. If you don't like that, there are other options available to you.

The cologne, however, is unforgivable. While loud people (of all ages) are a mere annoyance, too much cologne can trigger allergies, and breathing is no trifling matter.

edit.

It's time for me to cool off and stop seeing the faces of people I've encountered while travelling with my kids.

Thought experiment.....
Is it less or more acceptable than traveling with infants to travel with someone with Tourette's? What about a mentally disabled adult who has a tendency to get loud and overexcited?

The acceptableness of each case could easily be measured in decibels.

Hmm, well, until airlines forbid infants on flights, and somehow magically resolve variables otherwise out of their control, like ear pain, ignorant parents, or sometimes just a cranky-ass baby, an expectation of air travel is that there might be a screaming infant on board. Good for oilypenguin that he wants to spare others that potential suffering. He can, and can have his own mind about the subject. Let's not sling mud about martyrdom and bring obviously imperfect analogies to the table because you don't agree on the subject.

For context: I fly pretty often. I made status the first time when I was 14. I have no plans to ever have kids.

That being said, screaming or crying is annoying, but I only really have a problem with parents that act like they don't give a sh*t. If you're doing all you can to soothe your kid, and being apologetic, what more can you do, you know? I feel for you.

But if your kid is just being a brat and messing with other people, or you're trying to get them to play with some stranger so you can get a little sleep, that really grinds my gears. Just because you're now immune to their spoiled screaming doesn't mean the rest of us are, so control your hellion.

It was the comparison of a screaming infant to a life-threatening health crisis that threw me.

NSMike wrote:

Let's not sling mud about martyrdom and bring obviously imperfect analogies to the table because you don't agree on the subject.

My apologies if it came across as mud slinging at Oily.
When I say, stop being a martyr, it's more meant like, "hey, you're not in the wrong, you can take a little, make it a little easier for yourself, it's OK".

As for imperfect analogies, well, I do what I can to get across what I'm thinking. I'm not a writer. Please ask me what I mean if it's not clear.

We're designed to be unable to ignore a babies cry. What I wish for everyone is to get that clarity where instead of being annoyed, you understand. Once you understand what's going on, the annoyance vanishes. I now feel sympathy for the mother, and I'm driven to go ask if there's anything I can do. It's a huge relief that makes air travel far more bearable.

...again, negligent parents aside. Again, there my expectations are pretty polarizing. This all taps into my "defend my children" cortex.

My girlfriend and I don't have kids, don't want kids and in a general sense, can't stand kids. That said, I don't personally think it's fair for me to expect that people won't bring them on planes or into other public venues where they could be a disturbance. As others said, kids cry. I cried plenty as one. As long as the parent is actively trying to do something about it, I may be annoyed but also tolerant. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do and I don't have a problem with that. The infuriating thing I've seen in many public venues (including flying and especially restaurants) is the parents whose kids cry, scream and throw tantrums (in some cases objects even) and they do absolutely nothing about it. When your kid is severely misbehaving and you can't even be bothered to try to calm them down, you've crossed the line from being a parent in a difficult situation to being an entitled twit and you suck in that case. This is becoming disturbingly common now and it's the main reason why when we go out for dinner, it's rarely to anywhere that has "family restaurant" in the name. There's certain things that are understandable with being a parent but certain responsibilities as well. You shirk those, we have a problem.

EDIT: Basically Tannhauser'd.

Re: flying - I can deal with screaming babies, it happens. But to the person in front of me, if you start to lean back your seat and encounter the resistance of my knees, perhaps pull your seat back up just a little so you're not being a complete dick to the tall guy with arthritis who couldn't get one of the seats he actually wanted (I always try to get in one of the seats with a little extra legroom for precisely this reason).

It's that, or deal with the fact that I'm going to be forced due to discomfort to alter my sitting position frequently, which will unavoidably result in my knees banging the back of your chair and waking you up from your nap.

And don't even THINK about complaining to me because you can't lean your seat back further, or that I'm waking you up from your nap. You're perfectly capable of dealing with a little inconvenience if you're expecting me to deal with actual pain.

...ok, rant over. Gods but I hate flying.

NSMike wrote:

It was the comparison of a screaming infant to a life-threatening health crisis that threw me.

The idea that the entirely comfortable, unencumbered, should be "put out" by something unavoidable and uncontrollable being suffered by someone who would honestly rather not suffer so. The absurdity of the cocktail party metaphor, is an amplified version of people on a plane being annoyed by something which cannot be controlled and isn't wanted by the person suffering it.

We've had flights were the boys were perfect and people compliment us on it. It's a roll of the dice. You never know. You can't even do everything you normally would. I'd choose to fly while my children are most likely to sleep, but sometimes you can't. Sometimes you have to leave at midnight in a different time zone with them four hours off of their schedule.

There is first class, and chartered private flights. If luxury service is expected, these people should be buying that service.

Similarly as mentioned in PXA's post, we don't take the boys out to dinner to the flashy singles restaurants: Moxies, Thai Fusion, Rare... we go to scores and kelseys, because that's appropriate. I expect parents are doing the same. Flights are a bit different. You don't have any control or choice. You take what you get, and we've even had airlines refuse basic needs, like using child seats. I can't recall, but under a certain age, I don't know that some airlines will even sell you a seat for an infant. They require the mother to hold it.

Farscry wrote:

Re: flying - I can deal with screaming babies, it happens. But to the person in front of me, if you start to lean back your seat and encounter the resistance of my knees, perhaps pull your seat back up just a little so you're not being a complete dick to the tall guy with arthritis who couldn't get one of the seats he actually wanted (I always try to get in one of the seats with a little extra legroom for precisely this reason).

It's that, or deal with the fact that I'm going to be forced due to discomfort to alter my sitting position frequently, which will unavoidably result in my knees banging the back of your chair and waking you up from your nap.

And don't even THINK about complaining to me because you can't lean your seat back further, or that I'm waking you up from your nap. You're perfectly capable of dealing with a little inconvenience if you're expecting me to deal with actual pain.

...ok, rant over. Gods but I hate flying.

6'-4" here. Sing it brother. I never put my seat back because I've suffered this. I'm being a Martyr.

Farscry: That is my biggest annoyance when flying! I don't mind if you lean your seat back, but, for god's sake, have a little god damn common courtesy, turn around, and ask if it's okay, then lean your seat back.

Talk about First World Problems.

"Dammit! There was an infant that ruined my enjoyment of the in-flight showing of Air Bud 3 while I was hurled thousands of miles in the air across the country in six hours! It's not fair!"

Completely agree that parents should be conscientious and attempt to do everything in their power to get their kids to behave reasonably and at a reasonable level. However, I've been the parent with That Kid once before and I have nothing but sympathy for anyone going through it. And if you want to tell me that flying from NJ to Seattle so my parents can see their grandkids isn't a good enough reason to board a plane with my children, I'll give you my mother's email address and you can tell HER. She will hunt you down and kill you.

Thanks, Mike. I must admit, that escalated to name-calling pretty quickly. Top notch P&Cing.

Jonman brought up a topic that I wanted to in the Tourette's question. Which is preferable, baby or adult? Is there a difference in the cases?

And as I said, Jonman, sometimes travel with them cannot be avoided. Though you're a braver man that I to attempt anything transcontinental with a kiddo. Though I have 2 so even making it to the grocery store is an adventure.

Edit: Perhaps I am acting the martyr. It's not intentional, at least I don't think so. Before my wife and I had kids, it was always a pretty foregone conclusion that we were going to have them (if we could). As it turns out we could (and we're super good at making them since we have to buy 2 of everything on our first go) but it took a while and so I had a lot of time to consider where I came down on topics like this.

I made the decision that I wouldn't do all the things that drove me crazy while I was still pre-kids: Taking them on flights, taking them into restaurants, parking in a fire lane and holding up traffic to run into the store because it takes too long to get them out of their car seat, etc.

The way I see it, having these girls was my choice. Because I chose to do this, it becomes my responsibility to cause as little disruption to the people around me as I can. Why? Because that's what I expect of them. They didn't chose for me to bring my kids to a public place, they had no say in the matter. I'm the one inflicting my adorable bundles of joy on them.

I know that even with those intentions in mind, I'll need to break my own rules from time to time and I'd certainly appreciate some understanding from the people I inconvenience but if I put myself in their shoes, I can see why they wouldn't want to. Now granted, my outlook has certainly changed and I'm much more understanding of parents when their kids bite my day in the ass but at the same time part of me wonders, "was this their last resort or do they just not give a sh*t?"

I don't think I classify as a martyr until I start lamenting all the things I'm giving up to make everyone else's lives better. I'm giving those things up gladly. Am I still a martyr? Maybe. Maybe I'm more of one because of how holier than thou that sounds. It isn't meant to be, I'm just trying to explain my head space =)

The problem I'm having is that I simply cannot fathom how a parent can call the person their inconveniencing selfish. It isn't up to them and they can't help it if the kid you inflicted on them is misbehaving. It's out of their hands, of course some people will be mad. No one likes being in a situation they can't control.

tuffalobuffalo wrote:

Farscry: That is my biggest annoyance when flying! I don't mind if you lean your seat back, but, for god's sake, have a little god damn common courtesy, turn around, and ask if it's okay, then lean your seat back.

And to clarify, I don't mind people leaning their seat back in general; just not so far it impacts my knees and I can't compensate for it.

Fortunately, most of the times I've flown, the person in front of me is polite enough to either ask, or only lean back a modest amount to begin with. It's just that the few bad experiences I had were very unpleasant, and moderately painful.

oilypenguin wrote:

Having children does entitle you to a few things and I think a bit more leeway about what should be expected of you. However, I don't think that justifies torturing 200 other people on a long trip because you couldn't make other arrangements.

But then sometimes you have to fly and exceptions must be made. Nothing to be done about that. And yes, strangers should try and be more understanding. But let's not make it a completely black and white issue here, having a kid does not mean you get carte blanche for everything you do.

That's pretty much how I feel--when you're a parent, you give up some of your independence. Just like society takes on additional responsibilities towards your kid. You give up some things in return for other things all for the sake of children.

Only I'd give more leeway. I wouldn't make it a matter of having to fly. You can fly with your kid even when you don't necessarily have to fly, just don't do so as care-free as you would if you weren't bringing a kid along. I'll trust you that you made the right decision.

Just one thing: could we just call people big instead of obese? It really doesn't matter why someone is taking up my seat space. I'd much rather have a hot chick with some curves than someone I'm not attracted to taking up my space. Fat of a hot person > muscle/bone of someone who I'm not into. Plus, chicks are better (too well?) behaved when it comes to public transportation anyway.

I don't think I've ever had someone turn around and ask me if it's okay.

It's all in good fun. It's funny, flying rants really aren't rants about flying. They're really just people rants. On a plane you can't avoid the annoyances like you normally would be able to.

/off topic

Off-topic:

Spoiler:

That came up in the rape culture thread of yore, actually. I'm glad someone wrote an article because I was having trouble explaining it properly.

Sometimes a baby on a plane can be utterly delightful and transfix a nearby passenger for a good hour while they make funny faces and play peek-a-boo. Sometimes the baby will be scared and uncomfortable and in pain and cry for that same hour. That's babies for you.

My wife is Swedish. I'm Australian. We live in the UK. Our baby's gonna spend some time on planes. We have no interest in him having a bad time and making that time worse for us so we do our best. I don't ask more of anyone else in any other situation. You make the effort. That's life.

We've flown a few times when one of our kids was in infancy and air travel was preferred (especially for the Montana and California trips). A major source of help was the carseat we took with us. Yeah, it meant buying an extra ticket and lugging the seat through airports. However, since it was the same seat we used on drives to Florida or Wisconsin, the kid seemed to understand that we were traveling and ended up in a better mood for it. We also didn't have to worry about obtaining a seat for the rental on the other end of the trip.

lostlobster wrote:

And if you want to tell me that flying from NJ to Seattle so my parents can see their grandkids isn't a good enough reason to board a plane with my children, I'll give you my mother's email address and you can tell HER. She will hunt you down and kill you.

Holy mother of a shellfish bastard...

Strangeblades wrote:

Eh. I wear earplugs. Seriously. Wear those or slap some headset on and your good to go.

Bring your babies on the plane. Bring all the babies.

Yeah. I have flown exactly once and taken a train a few times. I am an adult. I have an MP3 player, 3DS and tablet. Guess what? Headphones work with all of them and drown out noise.

Who the f*ck knew.

Unless you ballgag a baby I don't think you'll get it to quiet down, but then you have to explain why the f*ck you put a ballgag in a baby's God damn mouth.

People have babies. Babies are a nuisance at a movie theater. They ruin the experience people are there for. You are on a plane to fly. If you don't want to be irritated by the noises other folk make, put on some God damn headphones.

There are parents who ENCOURAGE their children to be obnoxious in these situations, either directly or indirectly. I've seen some tell their kid to 'go play' even if that entails kicking random strangers, and others merely sit there and laugh as their kids run around, even in places in which doing so poses a safety risk to the child and/or others.

As long as you're not one of those then you're okay in my books, gold star if you seem to be making an effort to teach your child (age appropriate lessons of course) about appropriate vs inappropriate behaviour for public places. No I take that back, you don't get a gold star for doing what you're supposed to do (NSFW Chris rock on this point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0B_ekSrsEk ) but I will be notably less annoyed with your existence than otherwise.

Another point I think is to realize that people being annoyed at your crying kid are not just being mean spirited or cruel (some of them may be, but not enjoying your kids doesn't make them thus). You (probably) chose to have them while everyone else just happened to be stuck there by chance, as long as you seem to be making an effort it's probably fine.

Either way at least with travel there's some plausibility that this was the only option for your family, taking your baby or infant to the adult rated 11pm showing of a film or a fine-dining clearly not infant friendly restaurant? Not so much.

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