Young Male with Low Testosterone

m0nk3yboy wrote:
Gumbie wrote:
m0nk3yboy wrote:
Gumbie wrote:

Saw the endocrinologist and had more tests last week. Total test is showing 217 which isn't as bad as my previous 173 but it's still in the gutter. Going to the hospital today for an MRI of my brain because the doc wants to make sure there isn't a tumor on my pituitary gland. Finding a tumor is probably the best case scenario because it means all systems are functioning normally but the tumor is blocking signals to produce test. The tumor can be shrunken with prescription drugs, everything starts back on its own, fertility is untouched, and life is peachy.

If he doesn't find anything then most likely I'll be starting androgel or injections which I'll have to do for the rest of my life.

Just wondering what the 'normal' levels are?

I went for a test recently based on this thread, and the connection with low levels and Depression (in the depression thread). It came back 172, I'm almost 40, so not sure if that has a bearing on how manly I should be. The Doc has ordered a more complete screen, rather than just the 'floating' screen they did in the primary testing.

Depends on your age but even at 40, a test level of 172 is terrible and could be a huge cause of your depression. ZaneRockfist put a chart on the 3rd post of this thread that shows what normal levels are considered and it takes age into consideration.

I'd forgotten Zane had put that there, thanks for the reminder.

*peruses chart*

Sweet Jebus, you're not wrong! :(

I get to go back for my followup after 3 months on Testim in the next couple of weeks. Haven't noticed a huge difference, so I suspect it's on to shots.

Bonus_Eruptus wrote:
m0nk3yboy wrote:
Gumbie wrote:
m0nk3yboy wrote:
Gumbie wrote:

Saw the endocrinologist and had more tests last week. Total test is showing 217 which isn't as bad as my previous 173 but it's still in the gutter. Going to the hospital today for an MRI of my brain because the doc wants to make sure there isn't a tumor on my pituitary gland. Finding a tumor is probably the best case scenario because it means all systems are functioning normally but the tumor is blocking signals to produce test. The tumor can be shrunken with prescription drugs, everything starts back on its own, fertility is untouched, and life is peachy.

If he doesn't find anything then most likely I'll be starting androgel or injections which I'll have to do for the rest of my life.

Just wondering what the 'normal' levels are?

I went for a test recently based on this thread, and the connection with low levels and Depression (in the depression thread). It came back 172, I'm almost 40, so not sure if that has a bearing on how manly I should be. The Doc has ordered a more complete screen, rather than just the 'floating' screen they did in the primary testing.

Depends on your age but even at 40, a test level of 172 is terrible and could be a huge cause of your depression. ZaneRockfist put a chart on the 3rd post of this thread that shows what normal levels are considered and it takes age into consideration.

I'd forgotten Zane had put that there, thanks for the reminder.

*peruses chart*

Sweet Jebus, you're not wrong! :(

I get to go back for my followup after 3 months on Testim in the next couple of weeks. Haven't noticed a huge difference, so I suspect it's on to shots.

Same here. My official number went from 143 to 173 so it's doing something, but not much.

DSGamer wrote:
Bonus_Eruptus wrote:
m0nk3yboy wrote:
Gumbie wrote:
m0nk3yboy wrote:
Gumbie wrote:

Saw the endocrinologist and had more tests last week. Total test is showing 217 which isn't as bad as my previous 173 but it's still in the gutter. Going to the hospital today for an MRI of my brain because the doc wants to make sure there isn't a tumor on my pituitary gland. Finding a tumor is probably the best case scenario because it means all systems are functioning normally but the tumor is blocking signals to produce test. The tumor can be shrunken with prescription drugs, everything starts back on its own, fertility is untouched, and life is peachy.

If he doesn't find anything then most likely I'll be starting androgel or injections which I'll have to do for the rest of my life.

Just wondering what the 'normal' levels are?

I went for a test recently based on this thread, and the connection with low levels and Depression (in the depression thread). It came back 172, I'm almost 40, so not sure if that has a bearing on how manly I should be. The Doc has ordered a more complete screen, rather than just the 'floating' screen they did in the primary testing.

Depends on your age but even at 40, a test level of 172 is terrible and could be a huge cause of your depression. ZaneRockfist put a chart on the 3rd post of this thread that shows what normal levels are considered and it takes age into consideration.

I'd forgotten Zane had put that there, thanks for the reminder.

*peruses chart*

Sweet Jebus, you're not wrong! :(

I get to go back for my followup after 3 months on Testim in the next couple of weeks. Haven't noticed a huge difference, so I suspect it's on to shots.

Same here. My official number went from 143 to 173 so it's doing something, but not much.

There is a certain percentage of people who can't absorb the gel through their skin into their bloodstream, those people have to do injections. Sounds like you guys fall in that group.

Heard back from the Dr. today. No abnormalities on my pituitary gland, so I know that's not causing the low test. The next step is to take twice weekly HCG shots. Basically these produce LH which tells your testes to get to work and start producing testosterone . It's not a long term solution, but the purpose is to maintain fertility while trying to raise the test. So when or if my wife gets pregnant I will stop HCG injections and move on to either androgel or test injections.

I'm due to get a needle in about 2 weeks time, so 10 weeks into the cycle. From research I've undertaken the Reandron I'm on tends to be watered down to back to almost pre-injection levels at the 10 week mark and for the last 2 weeks or so I've had some bad weeks with anxiety, stress and depression so from what I've read it sounds like my levels being back down in the gutter could be causing that. I'll drop back in here in a few weeks and let you know how getting another injection goes.

Prozac wrote:

I'm due to get a needle in about 2 weeks time, so 10 weeks into the cycle. From research I've undertaken the Reandron I'm on tends to be watered down to back to almost pre-injection levels at the 10 week mark and for the last 2 weeks or so I've had some bad weeks with anxiety, stress and depression so from what I've read it sounds like my levels being back down in the gutter could be causing that. I'll drop back in here in a few weeks and let you know how getting another injection goes.

I've self injected HCG twice and I'm due for number 3 tomorrow. So far so good, I think maybe I feel a little different...or it's probably just placebo. From the research I've done the HCG takes about 3 weeks before you start to feel test levels rising. I'll know for sure after I get my next blood work done on November 16th.

Prozac, have you considered trying a daily gel to keep levels consistent?

Heard a lot of bad things about the gels, anecdotally and from medical professionals. the quarterly injection is a 2 time thing, then a few months without ART, then get levels checked again so the doc can determine if my levels have normalised on there own or if this will be more long term.

I had the option of an injection every 3 weeks or every 3 months, I chose quarterly to reduce the number of trips to the doctor and hassle. If the price I pay for that is a big peak at week two then a slow decline back to my sub-par normal levels before the next needle I cna live with that.

Prozac wrote:

Heard a lot of bad things about the gels, anecdotally and from medical professionals.

Really? It's been the opposite for me. There are some people who can't absorb the gel through their skin and they won't get results, but for the people who can I've seen a lot of good stuff. I think a lot of the people who bash gels are in the can't absorb group. They use it, don't see any results and automatically assume the gel sucks. On the other hand the people who can absorb it have their levels sky rocket within a week or two along with DHT levels (sex drive). DHT is something injections can't raise near as well as gels can. Also my endocrinologist said that since gels are a daily application your levels stay consistent (along with your mood) where as on injections your levels spike and drop because of the timing.

Great. 3 months on Testim, and it's still at 264, plus I've gained 10 pounds. Well worth the money.

Bonus_Eruptus wrote:

Great. 3 months on Testim, and it's still at 264, plus I've gained 10 pounds. Well worth the money.

What form is Testim?

DSGamer wrote:
Bonus_Eruptus wrote:

Great. 3 months on Testim, and it's still at 264, plus I've gained 10 pounds. Well worth the money.

What form is Testim?

Cream.

I really didn't like Testim vs Androgel. I had started Androgel, my numbers went up, I felt good, etc, but after a couple of years my numbers dropped out again and it seem to lose effectiveness. Switched to Testim for a year, numbers got better again, then dropped a bit, so I asked if we could try to go back to Androgel to see if that would bump me again. It did, but I haven't dropped out over time like I did before.

Testim is thicker, doesn't absorb as well, and has a more noticeable smell to it. It's not bad, I just prefer Androgel.

MannishBoy wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Bonus_Eruptus wrote:

Great. 3 months on Testim, and it's still at 264, plus I've gained 10 pounds. Well worth the money.

What form is Testim?

Cream.

I really didn't like Testim vs Androgel. I had started Androgel, my numbers went up, I felt good, etc, but after a couple of years my numbers dropped out again and it seem to lose effectiveness. Switched to Testim for a year, numbers got better again, then dropped a bit, so I asked if we could try to go back to Androgel to see if that would bump me again. It did, but I haven't dropped out over time like I did before.

Testim is thicker, doesn't absorb as well, and has a more noticeable smell to it. It's not bad, I just prefer Androgel.

That sucks. Is there ever really an answer, then? That's disspiriting. I feel worse than I did a few weeks ago and I have actually had my dose *increased*. I'm worried I'll end up on shots and I guess I just hope those work.

DSGamer wrote:

That sucks. Is there ever really an answer, then? That's disspiriting. I feel worse than I did a few weeks ago and I have actually had my dose *increased*. I'm worried I'll end up on shots and I guess I just hope those work.

The answer is periodic monitoring and adjustment. I didn't mean it to sound like it was bad. At first, I was getting levels checked monthly, then every 3 months, then 6, then now on an annual basis, with the assumption that if I start feeling signs of low T that I go back in early.

I'm happy that this option is available to me to get my numbers up, and I can truly feel the difference when it's working right.

Bonus_Eruptus wrote:

Great. 3 months on Testim, and it's still at 264, plus I've gained 10 pounds. Well worth the money.

Dude you need the shots seriously. Sounds like you do too DS. Any reason why your opposed to them?

On a different note..I've been on HCG injections twice a week for almost 3 weeks. I won't know what my numbers look like until November 16th, BUT I do feel better. I'm not as tired, I have more energy, libido is up, and I feel like my mood is more stable. I'm not like jumping through the roof with happiness, but I'm not having the extreme highs followed by the deep lows that my mood was before. It stays somewhere in between and I like it. Also giving myself a shot in my stomach fat is extremely quick and easy.

MannishBoy is your dr. in Nashville? The endocronologist I'm seeing is in the boro and he has been excellent.

My biggest reservation on the shots is all the talk about how they're uneven. I could get used to the hassle of giving myself a shot. Not sure how I would feel about having my T spike and the potential mood swings. I'm reaching a point, though, where I'm willing to try practically anything. I've felt the upside and I feel like it could help me lose weight and help mitigate a host of chronic problems. So I'm all-in on whatever it takes. Just been scared off by the rollercoaster potential of shots.

Gumbie wrote:

MannishBoy is your dr. in Nashville? The endocronologist I'm seeing is in the boro and he has been excellent.

Yes, he is. He's OK, but I'm not sure he really specializes in low testosterone issues as much as other stuff like diabetes. I often feel he's a bit close to the vest with my actual numbers, when I like to be in on the analysis myself a bit.

He was a recommendation from my Oncologist, who I do think highly of.

DSGamer wrote:

My biggest reservation on the shots is all the talk about how they're uneven. I could get used to the hassle of giving myself a shot. Not sure how I would feel about having my T spike and the potential mood swings. I'm reaching a point, though, where I'm willing to try practically anything. I've felt the upside and I feel like it could help me lose weight and help mitigate a host of chronic problems. So I'm all-in on whatever it takes. Just been scared off by the rollercoaster potential of shots.

From what I've seen people who do a shot once a week do good. When it's stretched out to once every 2 weeks is when people start to have problems.

Gumbie wrote:
Bonus_Eruptus wrote:

Great. 3 months on Testim, and it's still at 264, plus I've gained 10 pounds. Well worth the money.

Dude you need the shots seriously. Sounds like you do too DS. Any reason why your opposed to them?

On a different note..I've been on HCG injections twice a week for almost 3 weeks. I won't know what my numbers look like until November 16th, BUT I do feel better. I'm not as tired, I have more energy, libido is up, and I feel like my mood is more stable. I'm not like jumping through the roof with happiness, but I'm not having the extreme highs followed by the deep lows that my mood was before. It stays somewhere in between and I like it. Also giving myself a shot in my stomach fat is extremely quick and easy.

MannishBoy is your dr. in Nashville? The endocronologist I'm seeing is in the boro and he has been excellent.

Not opposed to them at all. Just need to do a bit more research, and I think losing weight would help more than anything.

I might try to get back on the shots again, but man, they are so costly. $35 a pop. It sucks being this way since you don't feel like a man. I feel like a little boy.

Just to follow up if anyone cares...

Got my blood work back today after being on HCG injections for a month.

Total testosterone before: 218
Total testosterone after: 1114

My Dr. couldn't believe it and has never seen such a good response from HCG. My free test level was 218 which is high so my Dr was concerned about that. The lab was having trouble with estrogen tests and mine wasn't available yet when the Dr. called but with a test level that high I suspect my estrogen level might be high as well. Next plan of action is to lower my dosage and wait for the estrogen levels to come back.

Wow. I got tested again yesterday. If things don't get appreciably better for me that might be my next step. First test was 143. Last test was 313. They doubled the androgel dosage so we'll see. Keep us posted, Gumbie. That's good news.

So.... crap. During a routine check for my T levels my doctor did a test for thyroid function. That's off as well. Is there some connection? My thyroid has always been normal. Is one causing the other? Is the low T treatment causing it? I'm obviously scheduled to see a doctor and trying to find an endocrinologist, but I was curious if anyone else had both of these at the same time.

DSGamer wrote:

So.... crap. During a routine check for my T levels my doctor did a test for thyroid function. That's off as well. Is there some connection? My thyroid has always been normal. Is one causing the other? Is the low T treatment causing it? I'm obviously scheduled to see a doctor and trying to find an endocrinologist, but I was curious if anyone else had both of these at the same time.

Yes (not sure where my t levels are these days but aldosterone and DHEA are bad). Not necessarily one causing the other, but there is definitely interrelationship between thyroid and t... all part of that lovely pituitary-thyroid-adrenal-gonadal axis.

What thyroid tests did your doc run?

clover wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

So.... crap. During a routine check for my T levels my doctor did a test for thyroid function. That's off as well. Is there some connection? My thyroid has always been normal. Is one causing the other? Is the low T treatment causing it? I'm obviously scheduled to see a doctor and trying to find an endocrinologist, but I was curious if anyone else had both of these at the same time.

Yes (not sure where my t levels are these days but aldosterone and DHEA are bad). Not necessarily one causing the other, but there is definitely interrelationship between thyroid and t... all part of that lovely pituitary-thyroid-adrenal-gonadal axis.

What thyroid tests did your doc run?

Not sure.

"Thyroid function tests" would usually just be TSH, sometimes free T3 and free T4 if appropriate.

TSH Reflexive is what the test says.

DSGamer wrote:

So.... crap. During a routine check for my T levels my doctor did a test for thyroid function. That's off as well. Is there some connection? My thyroid has always been normal. Is one causing the other? Is the low T treatment causing it? I'm obviously scheduled to see a doctor and trying to find an endocrinologist, but I was curious if anyone else had both of these at the same time.

Yes, they are very much linked. You definitely need to find a good endocrinologist since they work with thyroid and hormonal issues. Thyroid levels played a big part in my diagnosis and treatment when I first starting seeing my endo.

DSGamer how close to Lake Oswego are you?

Gumbie wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

So.... crap. During a routine check for my T levels my doctor did a test for thyroid function. That's off as well. Is there some connection? My thyroid has always been normal. Is one causing the other? Is the low T treatment causing it? I'm obviously scheduled to see a doctor and trying to find an endocrinologist, but I was curious if anyone else had both of these at the same time.

Yes, they are very much linked. You definitely need to find a good endocrinologist since they work with thyroid and hormonal issues. Thyroid levels played a big part in my diagnosis and treatment when I first starting seeing my endo.

DSGamer how close to Lake Oswego are you?

PM me. It's easy to get to.

So I'm being put on depo-testosterone. How is that related to HCG? Is it better, worse? I'm supposed to have my first shot today and I'm unclear if that's the right way to go.

DSGamer wrote:

So I'm being put on depo-testosterone. How is that related to HCG? Is it better, worse? I'm supposed to have my first shot today and I'm unclear if that's the right way to go.

It's completely different than HCG but I think your problem with the gel is your skin wasn't absorbing it so I think you'll see some good results with the injections. Here's what I know regarding TRT and HCG.

There are two forms of Hypogonadism that are the cause of low test. The first thing a good doctor will do is diagnose which form you have. Most of the time this is done with an MRI of the brain to see any abnormalities of the pituitary gland and also looking at other thyroid levels.

The way a healthy male should function is with their pituitary gland sending LH to their testes and then the testes producing testosterone. Hypogonadism is when this process doesn't work...

1. Primary Hypogonadism

This form is basically where your brain (pituitary gland) sends LH (Luteinizing hormone) to your testes but for whatever reason (injuries, genetics, etc.) your testes do not use the LH to produce test and healthy sperm. If you're trying to have kids this is the form you don't want to have because basically your testes won't work correctly and produce test so since your testes won't make it on it's own you have to basically put it there yourself through exogenous testosterone (Androgel, depo injections). The only problem with this is while most people have great results, once your body sees an external source of testosterone coming it, it will shut down whatever natural production your body was still making. While it's not really a big deal testosterone wise...when your testes shut down so does sperm production.

2. Secondary Hypogonadism

This is the opposite of primary. Your testes are healthy and ready to produce testosterone, but your brain (pituitary gland) isn't sending LH (Luteinizing hormone). This is caused a lot of times by head injuries (concussions) or genetics. With this form of hypogonadism you can treat it with exogenous testosterone (androgel, depo shots) and receive the same results of someone with primary, but with the cost of your fertility. The good thing about secondary is awhile back doctors figured out that HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin), which is produced by pregnant women, can help men. The found out if you inject men with HCG their bodies take it and convert it to LH which then goes to your testes who are waiting for it. This way your basically kickstarting your own body's natural production instead of introducing external test via a gel or shot. Thus you fertility is saved. The bad part is this is a relatively new treatment for this and people aren't really sure about long term side effects. Also HCG can give huge boosts to test (like I had) but that can be bad because when the body produces too much test it takes the excess and turns it into estrogen which introduces a whole new set of problems. In my case even though I got great results my estrogen sky rocketed and now we are lowering my dose to try and find a sweet spot where my test is up but estrogen is in check.

Hope this helped.