The IDF starterd opreation "Pillar of Cloud" in Gaza (ended Nov 21 2012 23:00 GMT+2)

Demosthenes wrote:

I think they should divide the country into two...

Spoiler:

Reasonableville and Crazytown. Let all the regular civies live in one half, and the crazy militant nut jobs who think their religion is more important than everyone else's religion and feels the needs to use weapons to prove the point on the can live in the other half.

Would Reasnableville be within rocket/air strike range of Crazytown? Because if so, I see a flaw in your plan.

Niseg- stay safe.

I just read about the incidents today and there is mention that Israeli ground forces (1500-2000) are massing at the border.

Can someone remind me of if/when things ever escalated this far?

JC wrote:

Niseg- stay safe.

I just read about the incidents today and there is mention that Israeli ground forces (1500-2000) are massing at the border.

Can someone remind me of if/when things ever escalated this far?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

Thanks TB... What a mess. Consistently it appears.

My dad and two youngest siblings moved back to Israel a few months ago. Quite the timing on their part. My brother gave me a Skype tour of their place, he was very excited that his bedroom was the bomb shelter, showed me the steel plates that slide over the window and everything. I wonder if his attitude will change over time, but nonetheless it is just how life is.

What exactly is the pressing reason behind this latest waste of human lives?

Dozens of rockets and mortar rounds fired into Israel over the last few weeks. Before anyone reflexively responds, imagine a month of rockets and mortars fired from Tijuana into San Diego. Of course, you also have to assume that Tijuana is made of former US territory, with radical Christians holding enclaves with US government support and creating new ones regularly on good land.

In other words, it's a mess from both sides.

Robear wrote:

Dozens of rockets and mortar rounds fired into Israel over the last few weeks. Before anyone reflexively responds, imagine a month of rockets and mortars fired from Tijuana into San Diego. Of course, you also have to assume that Tijuana is made of former US territory, with radical Christians holding enclaves with US government support and creating new ones regularly on good land.

In other words, it's a mess from both sides.

A better analogy would be Native Americans begin committing terrorist attacks from within the US. We would defend ourselves, but you know, we were kind of sh*tty to the previous inhabitants of this land.

DSGamer wrote:
Robear wrote:

Dozens of rockets and mortar rounds fired into Israel over the last few weeks. Before anyone reflexively responds, imagine a month of rockets and mortars fired from Tijuana into San Diego. Of course, you also have to assume that Tijuana is made of former US territory, with radical Christians holding enclaves with US government support and creating new ones regularly on good land.

In other words, it's a mess from both sides.

A better analogy would be Native Americans begin committing terrorist attacks from within the US. We would defend ourselves, but you know, we were kind of sh*tty to the previous inhabitants of this land.

Can we just say that there aren't any very adequate analogies?

kazooka wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Robear wrote:

Dozens of rockets and mortar rounds fired into Israel over the last few weeks. Before anyone reflexively responds, imagine a month of rockets and mortars fired from Tijuana into San Diego. Of course, you also have to assume that Tijuana is made of former US territory, with radical Christians holding enclaves with US government support and creating new ones regularly on good land.

In other words, it's a mess from both sides.

A better analogy would be Native Americans begin committing terrorist attacks from within the US. We would defend ourselves, but you know, we were kind of sh*tty to the previous inhabitants of this land.

Can we just say that there aren't any very adequate analogies?

I think that's safe.

DSGamer wrote:
kazooka wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Robear wrote:

Dozens of rockets and mortar rounds fired into Israel over the last few weeks. Before anyone reflexively responds, imagine a month of rockets and mortars fired from Tijuana into San Diego. Of course, you also have to assume that Tijuana is made of former US territory, with radical Christians holding enclaves with US government support and creating new ones regularly on good land.

In other words, it's a mess from both sides.

A better analogy would be Native Americans begin committing terrorist attacks from within the US. We would defend ourselves, but you know, we were kind of sh*tty to the previous inhabitants of this land.

Can we just say that there aren't any very adequate analogies?

I think that's safe.

Not to bag on you or anyone else, it just seemed like we were headed towards troublesome and unhelpful territory.

I wish these two sides would just get it over with and f*ck already.

Prederick wrote:

I wish these two sides would just get it over with and f*ck already.

Make-up sex is the best!

I rarely visit this area of the forums, but I thought I'd pop in due to current affairs. Niseg was only half right - I do live north of him, but slightly further than he thought, about parallel to Tel Aviv, 15 miles or so to the east (Rosh Ha'Ayin).

Until last night we were considered most definitely out of range. As Hamas and it's sister/daughter organizations have since fired 3 or 4 Iranian-made Fajr5 missles that have landed to the west of Tel Aviv (in the ocean) and just to the south of it, we are now officially in range as well. Being at the outer-most ring, we have the luxury of having a full 90 seconds to reach the nearest shelter.

It's the sad reality of the situation, that most (or all, in the case of newer-built houses and apt. buildings) have built-in bomb shelters, either in the form of a dedicated room in the apartment, a common one on a each floor of a high-rise, or adjuncted to a private residence (like I do). Some of the older buildings have added such rooms, and some have to do with public, neighborhood-style shelters. They're not really of much use when you have a minute to get there.

I see there were questions of what started this current mess, and the wondering about low casualty numbers relative to launches. Maybe some background first - since Israel unilaterally vacated itself *entirely* from the Gaza strip app. 7 years ago, rocket and mortar attacks on the "1st" ring of civilian populace is standard practice. There can be some stretches (weeks, at one or two points up to 2-3 months maybe) of quiet, but that Hamas has never stopped attacking *purely civilian* targets, without even any pretext of having any military aim. Pure terror. As Niseg stated, the rockets and mortars are primitive in the sense that they have no guidance systems, and the firing squads lack the ability to do follow-up launches to correct their aim (if they hang around, they get shot). Add that to the fact that (sadly), the populace is very well trained to get to the shelters once the sirens sound, there are usually no fatalities. Some of the children living in that region have never known any other reality - in school, at home, playing in the yard, or going to a friend's birthday party - they always know where the nearest shelter is and are prepared to run for their lives with 15-30 seconds of warning. Take a minute to think about that.

This latest round started when Israeli elections were declared a few weeks ago. Within several days, the Hamas started escalating their "steady" trickling of attacks, to daily and several times a day. IDF patrols *around* the Gaza strip borders (there are no ground incursions into the strip) were attacked with anti-tank missiles. Several soldiers were wounded, 1 was killed over a period of 2 weeks. As attacks continued and escalated, the government decided to launch a series of surgical air strikes against select military targets (Hamas general Jabari being the first), rocket stores and launching facilities, munitions stores etc. There were over 500 Israeli AF strikes since wednesday - with 4 or 5 civilian casualties on the palestinian side. These sad cases were because Hamas purposefully places their depots and launch sites in the center of civilian population.

Over 560 rockets have been shot into Israel since the operation began (since Wed.) - Iron Dome active defense system has intercepted a little over 80% of the rockets mid-air. There have been 3 civilian casualties as already mentioned, but since mostly people manage to reach the shelters in time (practice and availability), and the inability to aim properly, we have thus far been lucky.

Hopefully a ground invasion won't be necessary and both sides can again reach an uneasy truce of sorts. We'll have to wait and see.

Tamron wrote:

stuff

Very sobering. Thank you for your perspective.

Niseg, Tamron: You both seem to be incredibly calm given the potential situation. Is this the attitude everyone has over there? Sort of a "we've never known anything different" type of mindset? I don't mean that to sound flippant in any way. Genuinely curious.

Bloo Driver wrote:
Niseg wrote:

At least I live 2km (1.2miles) out of rocket range. They are talking about longer range rockets being launched but as far as I know the next rocket ring is 75km range (current one is about 40km) .

I cannot even fathom what it has to be like to live a life where you are aware of "rocket rings" in relation to your house.

Growing up in the 70's, I remember pulling maps out and looking at the air-force base near our home (about 25-30 miles away), and wondering if a Soviet nuclear warhead exploding there would instantly kill me, or if there was some chance I could survive. Granted, there was never the real world events to back up the immediacy of the danger like in Israel now, but for a 7-9 year old kid, it was a common late-night worry of mine.

JC wrote:

Niseg, Tamron: You both seem to be incredibly calm given the potential situation. Is this the attitude everyone has over there? Sort of a "we've never known anything different" type of mindset? I don't mean that to sound flippant in any way. Genuinely curious.

As with any mass of people, there's a somewhat uniform divergence of calm levels between panic and apathy But as this *is* a long time reality for this country as a whole, and for some areas much more so than others (rockets have yet to actually fall *here* where I live, though they did back in '91), as a people I guess we are calmer than others would be in a similar situation. Also keep in mind that Military service is mandatory here for both genders, and many many people have seen "active" duty to one degree or another (from full on war to security detail). That sort of thing gives you a different perspective.

But I guess mainly it's the fact that we're a tiny nation surrounded by bigger ones, most of which want us gone. We've had to fight to survive for as long as we've existed.

Tamron wrote:

Maybe some background first - since Israel unilaterally vacated itself *entirely* from the Gaza strip app. 7 years ago, rocket and mortar attacks on the "1st" ring of civilian populace is standard practice.

This is an euphemism for saying "instituted a blocade as a punishment for the result of the elections"?

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Tamron wrote:

Maybe some background first - since Israel unilaterally vacated itself *entirely* from the Gaza strip app. 7 years ago, rocket and mortar attacks on the "1st" ring of civilian populace is standard practice.

This is an euphemism for saying "instituted a blocade as a punishment for the result of the elections"?

It's a euphemism for saying "go ahead and be happy with your elected representatives (whose very first act, by the way, was to slaughter or send fleeing to the western bank all members of their "moderate", losing opposition), but since said elected reps' first and foremost declared aim is to have us destroyed, please don't be too upset if we don't let you mass import everything in Iran's arsenal."

Nesig and Tamron, stay safe guys. Jerusalem being targeted is clearly an attempt to escalate this conflict beyond what we have perviously seen. I hope cooler heads on both sides prevail.

Growing up in the 70's, I remember pulling maps out and looking at the air-force base near our home (about 25-30 miles away), and wondering if a Soviet nuclear warhead exploding there would instantly kill me, or if there was some chance I could survive. Granted, there was never the real world events to back up the immediacy of the danger like in Israel now, but for a 7-9 year old kid, it was a common late-night worry of mine.

Biggest danger at that distance would be flash burns and ignition of flammables. You'd probably have made it, and spent the rest of your short, hungry, bewildered life scrounging among the ruins and fending off mutant scorpions and high-octane vehicles filled with gearhead punks and their technician and cheerleader slaves. A dark time, for sure, unless you're good with a sledgehammer.

Robear wrote:
Growing up in the 70's, I remember pulling maps out and looking at the air-force base near our home (about 25-30 miles away), and wondering if a Soviet nuclear warhead exploding there would instantly kill me, or if there was some chance I could survive. Granted, there was never the real world events to back up the immediacy of the danger like in Israel now, but for a 7-9 year old kid, it was a common late-night worry of mine.

Biggest danger at that distance would be flash burns and ignition of flammables. You'd probably have made it, and spent the rest of your short, hungry, bewildered life scrounging among the ruins and fending off mutant scorpions and high-octane vehicles filled with gearhead punks and their technician and cheerleader slaves. A dark time, for sure, unless you're good with a sledgehammer.

Did you just mix Fallout and Mad Max? Clearly those are two separate alternate futures.

Glad again to hear you guys who are in the general vicinity are doing good and are staying safe. Keep it up, we'd miss you terribly!

Did you just mix Fallout and Mad Max? Clearly those are two separate alternate futures.

I dare, my friend, I dare!

Hamas HQ has been hit. Don't think article mentions casualties.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-midd...

Just in time for Dec. 21. Thanks, Israel!

Robear wrote:
Growing up in the 70's, I remember pulling maps out and looking at the air-force base near our home (about 25-30 miles away), and wondering if a Soviet nuclear warhead exploding there would instantly kill me, or if there was some chance I could survive. Granted, there was never the real world events to back up the immediacy of the danger like in Israel now, but for a 7-9 year old kid, it was a common late-night worry of mine.

Biggest danger at that distance would be flash burns and ignition of flammables. You'd probably have made it, and spent the rest of your short, hungry, bewildered life scrounging among the ruins and fending off mutant scorpions and high-octane vehicles filled with gearhead punks and their technician and cheerleader slaves. A dark time, for sure, unless you're good with a sledgehammer.

So you're saying we're not in the best of all possible worlds?

1Dgaf wrote:

Hamas HQ has been hit. Don't think article mentions casualties.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-midd...

Six people and dozens of causalities in that attack.

There's been 40 Palestinian deaths, including 13 civilians, and three Israeli deaths since this round of hostilities broke out. There's no known count of the wounded, though that has to be significant considering Israel has hit 800 targets with airstrikes.

So you're saying we're not in the best of all possible worlds?

Well... Not yet, anyway.