Blizzard Vs Games Workshop

You know, I think I've asked this question before, but I don't ever remember seeing a satisfactory answer.

Does anyone know how it is that Blizzard was able to completely duplicate the Warhammer universe in Warcraft.. and more to the point, the Warhammer 40K universe in Starcraft?

Granted, it's far more simplified... but you'd be hardpressed to tell me that the Zerg and Protoss aren't merely 'tweaked' versions of the Tyranid and Eldar races. I mean, there are even DARK ELDAR^H^H^H^H^HPROTOSS!

Vehicles, unit types, etc... they all seem lifted directly out of the 40K setting.

How are they able to do that and not be slapped with a lawsuit? Was there one, and I just missed it? An out of court settlement?

I was just thinking about it recently, since Dawn of War was released... and obviously has an official 40K license.

Any thoughts?

Now I gotta go check out the warhammer stuff... If its what War/star craft is based off of I would prolly like it.

"painthappens" wrote:

Now I gotta go check out the warhammer stuff... If its what War/star craft is based off of I would prolly like it.

It is remarkably similar.

It is remarkably similar.

Almost down to the unit!

Marine = Space Marine
Ghost = Marine Scout
Arclite Siege Tank= Predator
Dragoon=Dreadnaught (Even though the Dreadnaught is human unit in warhammer 40K the whole living coffin thing is pretty ridiculous and clearly ""on loan"" in Starcraft)
ETC!

And every modern fantasy writer ripped off Stoker, Shelley or Tolkien. Nothing new there. I think what you do with the elements is far more important than what they are... and that''s where Blizzard shines.

And every modern fantasy writer ripped off Stoker, Shelley or Tolkien. Nothing new there. I think what you do with the elements is far more important than what they are... and that''s where Blizzard shines.

Bingo. So much of modern sci-fi rips off Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, ect. Doesn''t mean a thing, it''s about how well you tell your particular story. I think the only reason this comes up so much is because they''re both strategy games so you can do a unit by unit comparison. With stories you can do a similar plot comparison, but it doesn''t change the fact that the details are what makes a story what it is, not necissarily the overall plot.

"Reaper81" wrote:

Dragoon=Dreadnaught (Even though the Dreadnaught is human unit in warhammer 40K the whole living coffin thing is pretty ridiculous and clearly ""on loan"" in Starcraft)
ETC!

Whoa. I thought Warhammer 40,000 was pre-StarCraft?

And every modern fantasy writer ripped off Stoker, Shelley or Tolkien. Nothing new there. I think what you do with the elements is far more important than what they are... and that''s where Blizzard shines.

Oh, I agree. However, we all know that companies FIERCELY protect intellectual property. Regardless of story, plot, or gameplay elements, Starcraft is very clearly based on an existing work by Games Workshop in some fashion. Normally, in the US, that would spark all sorts of legal battles. Yet, I can find no reference to any such event.

I don''t really see it. Yes, there are similarities, but they''re on such a basic level that it''s not infringement of anything.

You''re saying:

Arclite = tank
Predator = tank
Therefore,
Arclite = Predator

But that''s an oversimplification. The ONLY thing those two units have in common are that they''re tanks.

Both games have a science fiction setting, thus they have certain premises in common (high technology, powerful weapons, armor, psychic abilities, etc.)

A marine is a marine. It''s a basic concept. GW can''t copyright the concept of a marine, and the Terran Marines are just soldiers, not copies of Space Marines. The Dragoon is a 4-legged Protoss unit while the Dreadnaught is a 2-legged Space Marine unit. Where''s the similarity?

Warcraft vs. Warhammer Fantasy is also nebulous. You can''t copyright the concept of dwarves, or knights, or orcs. They''re similar because they''re part of the tolkienesque fantasy genre, not because Blizzard ripped off Games Workshop.

Obviously Games Workshop agrees, because they''re certainly not shy about maintaining intellectual property rights. After all, you could just as easily say Games Workshop ripped off D&D since D&D has griffons and Warhammer does too. Hey they both have dragons, dwarves, elves, dark elves, dark dwarves, humans, knights, wizards, kingdoms, magic, heroes, melee combat, bows, undead, etc. They''re practically the same thing!

If Starcraft had a two-legged mechanized unit that looked like a dreadnaught, or a two-legged mechanized unit named a Dreadnaught, GW might have an issue (assuming they''ve TM''d the Dreadnaught). But since that isn''t the case, there''s nothing going on here.

Ok, that was very long winded. My apologies.

If Starcraft had a two-legged mechanized unit that looked like a dreadnaught, or a two-legged mechanized unit named a Dreadnaught, GW might have an issue (assuming they''ve TM''d the Dreadnaught). But since that isn''t the case, there''s nothing going on here.

I used the Dragoon instead of the Goliath because I believe the intellectual ""borrowing"" is a little more apparent there than in the case of simply comparing a Goliath to a Dreadnaught. A Dreadnaught uses the dead body of a Space Marine warrior to fight in a giant mechanical warmachine. A Protoss Dragoon uses the dead body of a Protoss warrior to fight in a giant mechanical warmachine. That''s what I was getting after.

If I had a company called Pear with a platorm running Operating System 10 (NOT OSX! See how clever I am) and you were Mac, wouldn''t you be pissed?

Don''t misapprehend me, I''m just playing the devil''s advocate here. I really don''t care about the topic one way or another I just find the similarities all very interesting.

But that''s an oversimplification.

I dunno... even down to the art style, the Zerg and Tyranid seem to have a lot of similarities.
Zerglings and Termagants or Hydralisks and Raveners, for example.

I dunno. I had a friend sit down one day and point out a load of similarities in capabilities, art style, and such between the starcraft races and the Warhammer 40K stuff.

If you want, i''ll have him lay it out for me again, and then we can discuss.

Tyrian, feel free, but it''s going to be pretty hard to convince me There are similarities, I''m not denying that, but nothing beyond the ordinary.

Reaper81, there are still differences between the dreadnaught and the dragoon. Unless GW has changed their history, the dreadnaught is piloted by a space marine that was so badly wounded he could no longer fight. He is ""entombed"" ALIVE inside the dreadnaught. He''s not dead, but he can never leave the metal body. Dragoons on the other hand are piloted by dead Protoss.

Also, if there was a company called Pear running Operating System 10, there''d be nothing Apple could do unless Operating System 10 was very similar to OSX. OSX is a trademark of Apple, Inc., but Operating System 10 is just a generic term stating that it''s the 10th version of an operating system. Just like Microsoft couldn''t do anything if a company called Macrohard created an operating system called Doors. These aren''t even good examples, because they''re clearly, deliberately related to trademarked concecpts, whereas Starcraft units could easily be considered coincedentally related, if at all.

Dragoons on the other hand are piloted by dead Protoss.

Actually....

""Veteran Protoss warriors who have been crippled or mortally wounded in combat can volunteer to continue their service to the Conclave by being transplanted into Dragoon exoskeletons.""

from http://www.battle.net/scc/protoss/units/dragoon.shtml

Ok, now I''m just nitpicking.

Hey not that it matters but the protoss are actually more in line with the Eldar. Eldar wraithlords use the spirit of dead eldar to control the machine.

Yes the starcraft game is darn close to 40k but I am guessing there are enough differences that GW did not think it worth a fight.

Hey not that it matters but the protoss are actually more in line with the Eldar.

Oh, that was my original comparison anyway (Eldar <-> Protoss). I was just responding to Paladin''s statement that the Dragoon was powered by a dead Protoss.

Yes the starcraft game is darn close to 40k but I am guessing there are enough differences that GW did not think it worth a fight.

I found a couple of unrelated message board posts with completely unsubstantiated posts to the effect of ""Starcraft was originally a joint project between GW and Blizzard, but GW left the table early.""

That seems more like internet rumor than anything else, but if there was any kernel of truth to it, it would explain some things.

I thought that the Eldar was created by GW in response to being upset that Blizzard ripped off the other WH40K races.

Kinda like a tit for tat.

I thought that the Eldar was created by GW in response to being upset that Blizzard ripped off the other WH40K races.

I was pretty sure that WH40K Eldar predated starcraft, though I could be wrong. As soon as my friend responds, I''ll post what he has to say here.

no the 40k game goes back to early 90''s... it deffinatly predates Start craft...
the fantasy warhammer game is early 80''s...

the worlds are similar... but Starship troopers could be copying the Tyranids too...

I totally understand, Paladin. I''m not discussing what could or could not be done legally. I''m just talking about how pissed one company or another might be.

I''ve been saying this for the last 5 years, glad to see someone else has noticed too!

Of course its not just Wh40k = Starcraft but also WH = Warcraft.

Its a bit much to say that they only have a common origin IMO.

The biggest similarity is in the art work, from the armour of Bretonnian knights compared to the CGI work in Warcraft III, even the way the Orcs/orks look which really is a WH standard.
Even the Tyranid-Zerg tracing job they did between Genestealers and Zerglings. Not to mention Carniflexes and Ultralisks or Farseers and High Templars... the art work is just a real lift job.
I can think of another dozen highly dubious examples of cross influence going on.

Indeed I remember an interview that IGN held with Blizzard about 3 or 4 years ago when they questioned them about this link...naturally they were denying it in most strong terms. Hmph!

"Tyrian" wrote:
I thought that the Eldar was created by GW in response to being upset that Blizzard ripped off the other WH40K races.

I was pretty sure that WH40K Eldar predated starcraft, though I could be wrong. As soon as my friend responds, I''ll post what he has to say here.

The Eldar were available for play in the Rogue Trader days of 40k so yes they are before starcraft.

"Reaper81" wrote:

I totally understand, Paladin. I''m not discussing what could or could not be done legally. I''m just talking about how pissed one company or another might be. :smile:

Well, you''ll get no argument from me on that. I''m sure there were people at GW who took one look at Starcraft and had a fit. ""What! They have little bug monsters that swarm the enemy! We TOTALLY invented that! Swarming bug monsters are OURS! Oh yeah, we invented games between armies of different races too! Rip off!""

Also, as Unforseen_Power mentioned, the Tyranids could just as easily be considered a rip-off of the bugs in Starship Troopers (the book, obviously).

I''ll say again, I''m not arguing that there aren''t similarities, but they''re generic similarities due to the games being in very similar genres. There''s nothing there that infringes on copyrights, trademarks, etc. Just as there are regulations to protect intellectual property, those regulations are limited in order to protect creativity. You can find a way to link almost anything between two similar items in similar genres if you try hard enough, but that doesn''t mean there''s anything illicit going on.

I could go on, but I''ll spare you

I''ll say again, I''m not arguing that there aren''t similarities, but they''re generic similarities due to the games being in very similar genres.

I just can''t agree. They are TOO similar. Similar is ""both are races of giant space-buglike creatures"". Here we have units in Starcraft that are exactly like a WH40K model, except that maybe they have an extra set of horns.

That''s like me copying Tony the Tiger, giving him extra stripes and saying I have Thomas the Tiger!

I''m not arguing that genre examples don''t share common ground, just that there are too many shared traits here. Had it been one or two units, I would have said ""eh, prolly just a modest coincidence"". That just doesn''t appear to the case here.

What strikes me as odd about the whole thing is that both companies are quite vociferous in defending their IP. If GW DID believe there was infringment going on, we all know they''d be slapping Blizzard / Vivendi with a huge lawsuit, suing for profits and whatnot. Since that hasn''t happened, they either:
A) have an agreement under the table, complete with gag order.
B) Paladin is right, and Blizzard was canny enough to change things sufficiently to ward off a suit.
C) Vivendi owns GW through shell corporations.

Personally, I think it''s D) Monkeys with Ice Cream.

Links to pics please. The last time I looked for source images of WH and WH40K is was pictures of the sculptures and while they resembled Starcraft creatures closely, I never saw anything that was an exact copy or something that just had a few extra horns.

Oh and Tyrian I think you are forgetting another viable option. GW doesnt want to get into a legal battle with Vivendi despite knowing they are right but they would lose due to attrition.

Links to pics please.

I''ve been trying to find some. Problem is, the models of today don''t look as much like SC as before... Typical Games Workshop; forced obselecence through discontinuing older product.

Here''s another interesting point. One of the models I''ve been thinking about (The Ravener) was actually added POST Starcraft. It basically looks like a Hydralisk with some extra tusks.

So now I''m not sure where that leads me. I still think termagants / gaunts look a lot like zerglings. And the Ultralisk looks a lot like a Carnifex. And firebats look a lot like a Terminator armor.

Oh and Tyrian I think you are forgetting another viable option. GW doesnt want to get into a legal battle with Vivendi despite knowing they are right but they would lose due to attrition.

Duh, D) Monkeys with Ice Cream!

You have to remeber we are talking back in Starcraft days.

A lot of things going on back then may have influenced a decision that are just not evident today. GW is a an English company where Blizzard is an American company and maybe that had some bearing on it too.

Bottom line is most companies defend their intellectual property, and have to vigorously if the want to keep it theirs, so I am sure GW had a team of lawyers look this over back when Starcraft was coming out and decided for what ever reasons not to pursue any sort of action.

Typical Games Workshop; forced obselecence through discontinuing older product.

Not like you have to buy the new models. I still have and use models from Rogue Trader days.

Bottom line is most companies defend their intellectual property, and have to vigorously if the want to keep it theirs, so I am sure GW had a team of lawyers look this over back when Starcraft was coming out and decided for what ever reasons not to pursue any sort of action.

See, this doesn''t satisfy the conspiracy theorist in me. I REQUIRE some sort of nefarious plot here!

Not like you have to buy the new models. I still have and use models from Rogue Trader days

Granted. Hell, I don''t play at all. That was cynicism of cow-orker shining through.

ok i can tell you what happened with stacraft, games workshop was originally haveing blizzard make a 40k game but eventually droped the project so blizzard changed some of the details on the modles and changed the names so they couldnt and wouldnt be associated with 40k but alot of pepole noticed early on that they were simaler but legaly games workshop couldnt sue because of the changes that were done, so basicly some pepole have been playing starcraft not relizing that theres basicly a 40k game under it all

Thread-necroing coffee grinder speaks truth.

Wow. I didn't know threads were still revivable after 10 years. It's like a modern miracle!

So? Warcraft is just a computer implementation of a game called Orcs & Humans that I cut out of a Dragon magazine ages ago. Blizzard has never been one for original ideas.