This is Not the Boogle Memorial Dating Advice/Tips Thread, No

Hitting on someone who is being paid to be friendly and polite to you is a little like bowling with those bumpers guarding the gutter. When you throw a legit strike, it doesn't matter whether the bumpers were there or not, but when the ball just slams into that bumper and pinballs around before getting to the end of the lane, let's get real, any pins you happen to knock down don't really count.

I'm not saying that it's NEVER a good idea, but if you find yourself inclined to hit on waitresses / checkout clerks / employees much more often than women who AREN'T being paid to be friendly, you've got to ask yourself whether you're not just afraid of harsh rejection and/or mistaking professional courtesy for romantic interest. Eventually, you've got to man up and take off the training wheels.

Bfgp wrote:

2) Being fashionable is underrated. It does not matter whether you succeed in your aim to dress as a suave and sophisticated guy, the important part is trying (but not too hard that you move outside your comfort zone). If you don't put an effort into bettering how you present, it can be hard to get past the first impression. On this point, watch the shoes - they don't mean anything to a guy, but women will definitely read things into what you wear on your feet.

This. I've been updating my wardrobe lately and I've found this blog to be immensely helpful. If you're like me and you woke up at 30 and realized that you're still dressing exactly the same as you did at 20, check it out. Ditto if you're 20 and still dressing like you're 15.

The general standard for stylish dress for men is so abysmally low that it really doesn't take much to stand out as the best-dressed man in the room.

Also, don't dress up just when you're going on a date or going out to try to meet someone. Do it all the time, so that you'll feel comfortable in nice clothes (and in case you happen to run across a good prospect when you least expect it).

3) Nice guys finish last. Not to say that a man shouldn't convey himself as a gentleman, but for some reason, it pays dividends to play the part of the "bad boy" now and then, even as much as you might find it distasteful. I'm not advocating for guys to go out and act like douchebags with impugnity - rather, noting that it seems to me women enjoy an element of danger in an encounter. In this regard, self-confidence is key. If you don't believe in yourself, chances are you won't be able to sell yourself to someone else.

Also this. A common fantasy that many women share is to "tame the bad boy" and bring out the hidden nice guy that only she knew was in there. She can't do that if you lay the nice guy at her feet from the word go. Identify your bad boy qualities and lead with those. Make her work a little to earn the nice guy treatment. Backwards as it sounds, they actually want this.

Also, on the "creeper" issue: a creeper is defined as an unattractive man pushing his unwanted attentions. A non-creeper is defined as an attractive man taking the EXACT SAME ACTIONS except that his attentions are welcomed because he is attractive.

Thing is, you don't know whether a particular woman will find you attractive or not until you try her. So I say, obvious exceptions aside (don't continue to press your attentions on a woman who has already made it clear she's not interested), don't be afraid to come across as a creeper sometimes. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that if you DON'T come across as a creeper every once in a while, you're doing it wrong (or at least, missing a lot of opportunities).

hbi2k wrote:
3) Nice guys finish last. Not to say that a man shouldn't convey himself as a gentleman, but for some reason, it pays dividends to play the part of the "bad boy" now and then, even as much as you might find it distasteful.

Also this. A common fantasy that many women share is to "tame the bad boy" and bring out the hidden nice guy that only she knew was in there. She can't do that if you lay the nice guy at her feet from the word go. Identify your bad boy qualities and lead with those. Make her work a little to earn the nice guy treatment. Backwards as it sounds, they actually want this.

These generalizations irk me a lot.

I say, if you're a nice guy, then be a nice guy. Don't put on some dumb act to attract women who have an ego that can only be satisfied by fixing someone else. It just sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I've stayed with being true to myself, and while I've had fewer and shorter relationships than a lot of people I know, I've managed to attract good women with a similar mindset to myself.

Delerat wrote:
hbi2k wrote:
3) Nice guys finish last. Not to say that a man shouldn't convey himself as a gentleman, but for some reason, it pays dividends to play the part of the "bad boy" now and then, even as much as you might find it distasteful.

Also this. A common fantasy that many women share is to "tame the bad boy" and bring out the hidden nice guy that only she knew was in there. She can't do that if you lay the nice guy at her feet from the word go. Identify your bad boy qualities and lead with those. Make her work a little to earn the nice guy treatment. Backwards as it sounds, they actually want this.

These generalizations irk me a lot.

I say, if you're a nice guy, then be a nice guy. Don't put on some dumb act to attract women who have an ego that can only be satisfied by fixing someone else. It just sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. I've stayed with being true to myself, and while I've had fewer and shorter relationships than a lot of people I know, I've managed to attract good women with a similar mindset to myself.

Yup. I've been happily with the same woman for 12 years without ever being a 'bad boy'. Some of these ideas are great if you just want to be a pick up artist, but not if you're interested in long lasting relationships with stable people.

True, but self-confidence is always more attractive than visible discomfort or second-guessing, all other things being equal.

clover wrote:

True, but self-confidence is always more attractive than visible discomfort or second-guessing, all other things being equal.

Very possible to be self-confident without being an asshole; trying to thread the needle too often leads to people just being assholes.

Tanglebones wrote:
clover wrote:

True, but self-confidence is always more attractive than visible discomfort or second-guessing, all other things being equal.

Very possible to be self-confident without being an asshole; trying to thread the needle too often leads to people just being assholes.

Yeah, everyone just finds self and social confidence very attractive. If you're in the pile of folk that has neither of those traits then you might mistake of confuse those traits for "being a bad boy" and then start making unhelpful conclusions about "women liking bad boys" and so forth. Mixed in with that is that fact the assholes are often forward and seemingly socially confident so it can be hard to separate out the confident assholes from the confident normal nice folk. If it's actually true that "women go for bad boys" then that's probably because they are no better than the rest of us at working out which confident guys are nice and which are secret assholes.

tl;dr: Doesn't hurt to show some confidence and be a bit forward. Stop buying in to "women like assholes" asshole.

There are also plenty of assholes who fancy themselves to be nice guys.

DanB wrote:

tl;dr: Doesn't hurt to show some confidence and be a bit forward. Stop buying in to "women like assholes" asshole.

Yup. It's not that women are attracted to assholes per se, they're attracted to self-confidence.

IMAGE(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/11/2/7GuH9AYOrEmYyFSSH0FmNw2.gif)

All this time later, and Jonman is still married.

KingGorilla wrote:

IMAGE(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/11/2/7GuH9AYOrEmYyFSSH0FmNw2.gif)

All this time later, and Jonman is still married.

This is the best thing.

KingGorilla wrote:

All this time later, and Jonman is still married.

Ain't the size that matters, pal, it's the patterns you make in the air while you're you waving it around whilst swinging from the chandeliers dressed as a sexy ninja.

I want that last comment stricken from the record. And my mind.

KingGorilla wrote:

IMAGE(http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20121027.gif)

Bonus image makes it:
IMAGE(http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20121027after.gif)
It's from SMBC

Double post so may as well include the reference that line is from:

If it makes you feel better to draw a distinction between "bad boy," "asshole," and "confident," and then identify with the latter and mock the former, then sure. Go with that.

I'm not saying to pretend to be something you're not and play it like a role. I'm saying, no man is just one thing. So identify the parts of your personality that bring you the most success in the short term and those that bring you the most success in the long term, and lead with the former then slowly reveal the latter to a woman as she proves herself worthy of them.

What you call those parts is up to you. It's just a label.

All this sh*t is one of the (admittedly numerous) reasons why dating is just too damn stressful and gives me anxiety attacks anymore.

I think there's also a little bit of a misunderstanding of what makes the "Bad Boy" so attractive. I mean, I don't really get it myself as 1) I'm not a woman and 2) I don't have a leather jacket with its collar popped smoking a cigarette as I lean against my motorcycle while I play hooky from school.

But this "bad boy" isn't necessarily an asshole. But, by being a "lone wolf" and "playing by his own rules", he clearly is an alpha male of sorts. Not that women are specifically looking for one consciously (God, as I type this I feel like I'm an assuming asshole), but we are all victims of our inner beast. We've spoken about ways for men to stand out in the crowd. No one stands out more than an Alpha Male, and in our society of "enlightenment" and other such buzz words and pretension (is that a word?) there are many ways you can "be an Alpha Male" without having to be a typical body builder or athlete.

The Bad Boy is an Alpha Male that also has a hint of adventure, though. Hey, want to know what Doctor Who has in common with trashy romance novels? A man taking women on adventure. Ever notice how there are a lot of geeky women that are really into Doctor Who?

Just as men have the valiant white knight fantasy of some sort, women have fantasies of meeting someone that will take them on an adventure.

Are these true for all men or women? No, but it breaks down the "Bad Guy" stereotype or archetype from being a mere "asshole", especially because when these fantasies are usually explored in media (where fantasies are created and lived out simultaneously) these men tend to actually be good and follow an honor code, but it tends to go against the face of what most consider good. In entertainment across all genres we celebrate the hero that doesn't play by the rules because the rules are limiting.

I am now reminded of Ducki Deva's rant in Trichy's little bags of testosterone thread and the typical male instinct to be protective of the daughter to the extent that they tend to be possessive. Such actions will make any teenager rebellious, and when hormones are flying this is a perfect time for the Bad Boy fantasy to form and take hold.

Note my amateur bullsh*t psychology is all theoretical, and I'm sure plenty here can call me on what I said is bullsh*t and what isn't, but I'd rather not devalue a woman's fantasy even if I feel like it can, in reality, lead to trouble.

As an example of a male fantasy, I watched an early episode of Big Bang Theory where Penny had yet another cheating boyfriend and things ended badly. Leonard tried to be a nice guy and cheer her up even though he really wants to date (and bang) her. He's a "nice guy", but it is clear his motivations are, in the end, rooted in his personal desires. He may be going over there because he cares for Penny, but he's also there because he wants Penny to care for him back.

By the end of the episode this happens. He finally has the guts to ask her out, and amidst heart broken turmoil she agrees.

This is a nerd fantasy. Or maybe just a "nice guy" fantasy. That the woman will just see all those other guys as jerks and appreciate him, the nice guy that has always been there. Problem is, it devalues both the woman and the men she has dated.

So yeah, women have fantasies that can be dangerous, but the fantasy Big Bang Theory played out can also lead to misogyny as time goes on (partially because it follows the notion that women only like assholes).

ccesarano wrote:

As an example of a male fantasy, I watched an early episode of Big Bang Theory where Penny had yet another cheating boyfriend and things ended badly. Leonard tried to be a nice guy and cheer her up even though he really wants to date (and bang) her. He's a "nice guy", but it is clear his motivations are, in the end, rooted in his personal desires. He may be going over there because he cares for Penny, but he's also there because he wants Penny to care for him back.

By the end of the episode this happens. He finally has the guts to ask her out, and amidst heart broken turmoil she agrees.

This is a nerd fantasy. Or maybe just a "nice guy" fantasy. That the woman will just see all those other guys as jerks and appreciate him, the nice guy that has always been there. Problem is, it devalues both the woman and the men she has dated.

So yeah, women have fantasies that can be dangerous, but the fantasy Big Bang Theory played out can also lead to misogyny as time goes on (partially because it follows the notion that women only like assholes).

How is pretending to be a friend when someone needs one, just to make your play when someone's guard is down because you can't pull it off under normal circumstances, any less of an asshole move? This is what I mean about the nice guy/asshole false dichotomy.

That's why I put "nice guy" in quotes (see? Did it again!). I used to be one of those "nice guys" until I realized most of my thoughts were actually selfish and self-serving. Now I try and prevent myself from thinking in that manner because, well, it's just as you said.

One day I heard some guys complaining about how girls only dated assholes, and when I looked at all my friends with girlfriends I asked myself "Are my friends really assholes?" No, they aren't. Clearly the idea that women only like assholes is flawed.

*fist bump*

Every post you make is enriched by your avatar, by the way.

Meh.

ccesarano wrote:

... girls who are assholes only dated assholes...

Truthified that for you. Scrotum is not a pre-requisite for assholery.

I've never thought of Leonard as a nice guy. He's kind of an asshole. They all are.

unntrlaffinity[quote=Squee9 wrote:

The issue is more that I'm unsure on how cool it is to ask out employees. Especially since it's a place I go to at least once a week, and will continue to go there often.

Definitely more of a sh*t where you eat conundrum rather than logistics.

I think if you have a genuine rapport (not just admired them for 3 months from afar), aren't a creeper about it, and willing to deal with any rejection as a grown-up, then it's okay. And if it does make the person uncomfortable, even if the average person would think it was kosher and reasonable, then you just gotta live with that.

I'd also err on the side of a casual invitation as opposed to AAAAAA DDDAAAAATTTTTEEEEE. Dunh dunh dunh![/quote]

Bam, perfect summary of the issue.

Although I always purposefully make it clear that I'm going for the full fledged date. That's what I want so might as well skip to that step and get it over with.

unntrlaffinity wrote:
AnimeJ wrote:
Squee9 wrote:

The issue is more that I'm unsure on how cool it is to ask out employees. Especially since it's a place I go to at least once a week, and will continue to go there often.

Ask if/when they take breaks. Then ask them out.

Definitely more of a sh*t where you eat conundrum rather than logistics.

I think if you have a genuine rapport (not just admired them for 3 months from afar), aren't a creeper about it, and willing to deal with any rejection as a grown-up, then it's okay. And if it does make the person uncomfortable, even if the average person would think it was kosher and reasonable, then you just gotta live with that.

I'd also err on the side of a casual invitation as opposed to AAAAAA DDDAAAAATTTTTEEEEE. Dunh dunh dunh!

I put it like I did because I've done it when I was a teenager working in the mall. Granted, it was technically employee>customer, but half the store was egging me on too.

Oh, and the nice guy thing? Nice guys need to sh*t or get off the pot. I pined after a girl for years when I was a dumbass teenager expecting things to just go my way because I was a good dude. Man up and ask. I spent all of freaking high school sitting on the pot, but never dropping the load, in a manner of speaking. Which is to say I was a dumbass for it, and also to say that I'm not calling anyone else a dumbass for it. You can do that to yourself if you like.

LarryC wrote:

I've never thought of Leonard as a nice guy. He's kind of an asshole. They all are.

Kuthrapali (sp?) seems like he's ok. Just insecure. And pulled between cultures.

LarryC wrote:

I've never thought of Leonard as a nice guy. He's kind of an asshole. They all are [b]caricatures of certain stereotypes.

Cut them some slack, they're pretty nice guys for being so fictional. :J

hbi2k wrote:

If it makes you feel better to draw a distinction between "bad boy," "asshole," and "confident," and then identify with the latter and mock the former, then sure. Go with that.

I'm not saying to pretend to be something you're not and play it like a role. I'm saying, no man is just one thing. So identify the parts of your personality that bring you the most success in the short term and those that bring you the most success in the long term, and lead with the former then slowly reveal the latter to a woman as she proves herself worthy of them.

What you call those parts is up to you. It's just a label.

I hope I didn't come off as mocking, but there definitely is a distinction between "bad boy," "asshole," and "confident".

If the bold part is what you meant to say, then I totally agree with that. I think the key is that they have to be parts of your personality. Some people just don't have the "bad boy" thing specifically. Confidence is definitely a major influence in having success, but that takes time to develop if you don't have it naturally. I know it took me forever to find any confidence.

AnimeJ wrote:

Oh, and the nice guy thing? Nice guys need to sh*t or get off the pot. I pined after a girl for years when I was a dumbass teenager expecting things to just go my way because I was a good dude. Man up and ask. I spent all of freaking high school sitting on the pot, but never dropping the load, in a manner of speaking. Which is to say I was a dumbass for it, and also to say that I'm not calling anyone else a dumbass for it. You can do that to yourself if you like.

The inability to act, though often paired with nice guys, is not directly connected to being one. You can man-up and be a nice guy. You can even be a cowardly asshole.

ccesarano wrote:

That's why I put "nice guy" in quotes (see? Did it again!). I used to be one of those "nice guys" until I realized most of my thoughts were actually selfish and self-serving. Now I try and prevent myself from thinking in that manner because, well, it's just as you said.

One day I heard some guys complaining about how girls only dated assholes, and when I looked at all my friends with girlfriends I asked myself "Are my friends really assholes?" No, they aren't. Clearly the idea that women only like assholes is flawed.

Have you ever read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover? It goes into those same ideas in much more detail. I'd call it a must-read for any guy who ever found himself falling into the "if I do enough nice things for her, surely she'll become horny with gratitude!" trap.

Delerat wrote:
AnimeJ wrote:

Oh, and the nice guy thing? Nice guys need to sh*t or get off the pot. I pined after a girl for years when I was a dumbass teenager expecting things to just go my way because I was a good dude. Man up and ask. I spent all of freaking high school sitting on the pot, but never dropping the load, in a manner of speaking. Which is to say I was a dumbass for it, and also to say that I'm not calling anyone else a dumbass for it. You can do that to yourself if you like.

The inability to act, though often paired with nice guys, is not directly connected to being one. You can man-up and be a nice guy. You can even be a cowardly asshole.

Yep. I got around to manning up, and dated a girl for a few years. Later down the road, I did it again and have been married for 5 years as a result. But it seems to me that almost every time I see the whole 'girls don't date nice guys' trope, it's coming from someone who won't ask these girls out on a date for fear of getting shot down.