Windows 8

Jayhawker wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

That I remember vividly. All of the regular folks that just wanted to click on an icon were ruining the computer experience for everyone else. And look what it led to!

Yeah, it led to Windows 8. The dorks were right! :)

I remember a post somwhere years ago, that made reference to a guy's child asking him why he was always going to the "dark place" when he used the computer.

I also remember trying to edit autoexec files and stuff so that games would access sound cards and other options. I once screwed it up so that my computer automatically booted up to Quake when I turned it on. And as a dumb noob gamer, I had no idea how to get back to Windows.

Ahhh, henceforth to be known as the good old days. I remember I once did something to format my dad's computer. Every scrap of data gone. Not sure what I was trying to do, but it probably involved trying to make an Ultima or Wing Commander game work. I'm amazed I lived to tell the tale.

From my perspective, I think it's good if a game or any other bit of general software works well out of the box with no extra setup needed. I'd love it when you can just dive into a game, and it's no skin off my nose if someone never touches the menus or digs into a config file because it comes with a sensible set of defaults. To take another tact, I have all the major browsers installed on my box, but I continue to use Firefox because I can dig into it easier time-to-time, having the ability to tweak and customise to make it suit me and how I end up working is what has kept me away from the rest.

*Legion* wrote:
tboon wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

Am I correct in remembering that the Start Button in Windows 95 was hated as much as Metro when it was introduced in Windows 95?

You are correct. "Give me back my damn Program Manager!" Heard that a lot too, back in the day.

Hmm, I don't recall anything quite so drastic. Possibly it could not be heard over the excitement of Windows actually having a native TCP/IP stack.

Perhaps you couldn't. Working as a Windows dev then, I could hardly hear anything else.

And I find it very amusing to see the caricatures of 'resistance to progress!' -- trying to rationalize something new that is not progress.

I don't think anyone missed autoexec.bat and config.sys. As long as their games ran, who cared? But even then, you still had to think about IRQs and DMA channels. You just had a GUI. It wasn't until the NT era that the hardware and software finally got smart enough to self-configure in such a way that you didn't need to be involved anymore.

Metro is not that kind of change.

Most of us are way too dumb to have that kind of control.

Well, Jayhawker, if you believe you're so stupid that it's best if Microsoft runs your PC for you, and in the process, gets a finger into your wallet every time you buy (or maybe even use) a Metro app, well, I don't know how you live with such a poisonously bad self-opinion.

Microsoft is monetizing freaking Solitaire in Metro. It has ads now!

Also: There's nothing that great about the Start Menu. The old system was just about as good. We didn't really gain anything in the short term by moving to that system versus the old Program Manager... the overall speed was just about the same. It can be argued that Program Manager didn't scale as well as the Start Menu did, and it was certainly uglier, but it wasn't really any worse, for day to day usage.

It is absolutely consistent to have disliked the Start button, and then to think that it's better than the new replacement.

Malor wrote:
Most of us are way too dumb to have that kind of control.

Well, Jayhawker, if you believe you're so stupid that it's best if Microsoft runs your PC for you, and in the process, gets a finger into your wallet every time you buy (or maybe even use) a Metro app, well, I don't know how you live with such a poisonously bad self-opinion.

Malor wrote:

I don't know how you live with such a poisonously bad self-opinion.

Being a Chiefs fan has been clinically linked to crushingly low self-esteem.

*Legion* wrote:
Malor wrote:

I don't know how you live with such a poisonously bad self-opinion.

Being a Chiefs fan has been clinically linked to crushingly low self-esteem.

Throw in Jayhawk football, and I rarely find reason to get out of bed.

Damn wish I had taken advantage of the 15$ upgrade.. seems to be dead now.

El-Producto wrote:

Damn wish I had taken advantage of the 15$ upgrade.. seems to be dead now.

The upgrade site is not working for you? I can still get as far as the registration page at least.

Gets as far as inputting my Win7 key and then says no dice.

El-Producto wrote:

Gets as far as inputting my Win7 key and then says no dice.

Huh, I don't remember it asking me for my Windows 7 key on the website at all. Maybe they're actually checking now whether your copy is on a PC purchased within the specified timeframe. If you're upgrading a PC that was purchased within that timeframe, then it should definitely work.

El-Producto wrote:

Gets as far as inputting my Win7 key and then says no dice.

You need to be running Windows 7 (or any other valid upgrade option OS) on the box you visit the upgrade site with. If you're currently running 32-bit and want 64-bit you'll need to find a 64 bit machine to visit the site and run the wizard on.

Visiting this site and putting in a valid email will get you the Media Center pack for free (you need at least Win8 Pro to use the key).

More FAQ's here.

Eezy_Bordone wrote:
El-Producto wrote:

Gets as far as inputting my Win7 key and then says no dice.

You need to be running Windows 7 (or any other valid upgrade option OS) on the box you visit the upgrade site with. If you're currently running 32-bit and want 64-bit you'll need to find a 64 bit machine to visit the site and run the wizard on.

Visiting this site and putting in a valid email will get you the Media Center pack for free (you need at least Win8 Pro to use the key).

More FAQ's here.

I opted for media center through this, but not sure why I did. I didnt use it in 7, I doubt I'll use in 8. But hey, its free!

I actually started using it this weekend. Really horrible quality until I checked online and learned that Media Center is REALLY picky about certain codecs. So I ran the vids through Handbreak with default settings. Night and Day difference.

Rezzy wrote:

I actually started using it this weekend. Really horrible quality until I checked online and learned that Media Center is REALLY picky about certain codecs. So I ran the vids through Handbreak with default settings. Night and Day difference.

Once you get media center going it is very good, especialy if you are using a CableCard. That said, there is ZERO change in it from windows 7 to 8. It is clear that the focus is on the Pais store and not the DVR.

Was announced this morning that the forthcoming DirectX 11.1 will be Windows 8 exclusive. God dammit Microsoft.

Not sure what improvements it will have but it will have native stereoscopic 3D support. If that's the big selling point, then no one cares anyway.

Yeah, that was around reddit a few days ago. http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/For...

The money quote:

DirectX 11.1 is part of Windows 8, just like DirectX 11 was part of Windows 7. DirectX 11 was made available for Vista (bing it), but at this point there is no plan for DirectX 11.1 to be made available on Windows 7.

Between the cries of people telling everyone to just upgrade, it's kind of disconcerting to see MS drop W7 and to a lesser extent Vista as soon as the new shiny thing comes along. Part of what has people concerned is that W7 is supposed to be in 'mainstream support', although I'm not sure of what the exact definition of that is, and I'm sure it changes on a daily basis with the internal MS politics.

The big thing for gaming is what versions actually get used and what platforms it promotes. It sounds minor, so I would guess DX11.1 gets left ignored in favor of widely adopted DX11.0. I find it hard to believe there's going to be many developers that would make a game exclusive to a new and unestablished OS.

The only other angle I can see is whatever MS are using in their next console, and what that means for cross platform development, although with a rumoured x86 PS4 it'd be interesting to see some movement away from DX/D3D graphics, although OpenGL doesn't have the best record for game development.

Based on the current lay of the land, I think a W8 exclusive DX11.1 will be just as successful as Halo 2 Vista was. It'll only get used as a minor optional feature in favour of more lowest common denominator features. Consoles will shake that up a bit, but it'll be a year or two (or more) before they really have an impact, and that's assuming that the "PC gaming is dead" pendulum doesn't swing back again.

I mean its good that Microsoft is attempting to change 3D to a single standard..right now having monitors specific to certain cards is a dumb consumer unfriendly technology. Would have also like to have seen a physics api as well...if only to get out of the Nvidia lock.

That's usually the way such technologies go, vendor will use it as a marketing point "The way it's meant to be played", etc, and later on it gets rolled into the base level of what everyone does.

I'm not sure which way physics will go, physx started as it's own hardware, and then was reimplemented in CUDA, and I think there's now a more generic CPU implementation

parallaxview wrote:

That said, there is ZERO change in it from windows 7 to 8.

This is true. Same bugs and all, the MC team was dibanded/moved over to Xbox post-Win7 shipping, in MS's eyes MC is a deprecated product.

That said, I use cablecard and it is the solution I've built my home on so it will be interesting in the next few years as things shake out. I may be asking what others are using or keep on chugging with Win7 as long as I can.

Sinofsky steps down "effective immediately". Something rotten in the state of Redmond?

Wow, actually leaving the company, not just moving to another department. Weren't people speculating he was in line for great things at MS?

Scratched wrote:

Weren't people speculating he was in line for great things at MS?

Yes, and he was also the leader behind one of the several visions for Windows 8. I forget which faction won though, but I'm pretty sure it's documented somewhere on the web.

One of his replacements is the one in charge of UI, so make of that what you will. I see it as confirmation of the metro direction they're heading in.

I know people move on in their careers, but one thing I can't help thinking now is that windows should be a stable product by now, or at least should be post-Vista which seemed to be a load of renovation to get it up to a modern standard, and I wonder that what I perceive as flavour of the month pet projects from changing head of divisions, and the politics and agendas doesn't do anyone any favours.

No one really knows why Sinofsky is leaving but rumour has it that he was extremely hard to work with and similar to that software guy Apple canned over the Maps fiasco, he may have been shown the door. He may also have always intended this. You never have the guy in charge of a major new product launch leave until after said product is out. Though I will admit if that was the case, it's likely they would have said so.

EDIT: Article from Ed Bott (who is a bit of a Microsoft evangelist) quoting a few people who say Sinofsky's departure is much like the recent Apple one, most about corporate politics than product failures.

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

EDIT: Article from Ed Bott (who is a bit of a Microsoft evangelist) quoting a few people who say Sinofsky's departure is much like the recent Apple one, most about corporate politics than product failures.

That kind of rumour makes me think MS is it's own worst enemy more than any other company. Things like windows are a big huge project, and not to imply anything negative about his successors but MS should be wary about losing the people who can deliver for them (whether or not I agree with the direction they take products they're responsible). I can't help remembering Longhorn or the first attempt at Vista.

If the guy at the top allowed politics to drive out a major asset to the company for their major division, then I can't think of any way to excuse that. The recurring dysfunctional politics rumours from MS really seem like reform is needed, or MS will bleed out from a thousand cuts.

Scratched wrote:

Things like windows are a big huge project, and not to imply anything negative about his successors but MS should be wary about losing the people who can deliver for them (whether or not I agree with the direction they take products they're responsible). I can't help remembering Longhorn or the first attempt at Vista.

That's part of how Sinofsky was placed in charge of the Windows division. I think he was over on the Office team and managed to demonstrate a real good knack for making sure they could deliver a good product on schedule.

If the guy at the top allowed politics to drive out a major asset to the company for their major division, then I can't think of any way to excuse that. The recurring dysfunctional politics rumours from MS really seem like reform is needed, or MS will bleed out from a thousand cuts.

MS is highly political due to things like multiple teams working on related but ultimately competing products. Good example is the decision to finally axe Messenger now that they have Skype. No idea what's going to happen with Linq, but I can't imagine that product is long for this world. This is the sort of thing that happens with a large company like MS.

I wasn't thinking so much about products as I was people. I know people move on, but this does seem to fit the pattern of previous departures.

I did have a bit of a rant typed out earlier with some personal preference mixed in about how windows at this point in it's life shouldn't be a 'sexy' thing at a base level, but a stable foundation/platform that other things are built upon. The best parallel I can think of is linux and the surrounding ecosystem, it's very flexible and versatile, and certainly not one size fits all - meanwhile windows seems to be pushed in one direction then the next. In my humble opinion, windows should just be a boring stable release on a regular schedule, and then there's side projects that do things with it and expand it.

shoptroll wrote:

MS is highly political due to things like multiple teams working on related but ultimately competing products. Good example is the decision to finally axe Messenger now that they have Skype. No idea what's going to happen with Linq, but I can't imagine that product is long for this world. This is the sort of thing that happens with a large company like MS.

Lync 2013 is supposed to incorporate Skype features. I don't think Lync is going to go away for business use as Skype is too associated with consumers.