XCOM: Enemy Unknown - Strategy Game - Developed by Firaxis

I'm only ~7hours in, having a great time and I've skipped through all your (potentially spoilery?) complaints for now.

Still not entirely sure what I should be doing with the satellite/interceptor/anything in the base side of the game mind. I have a few things set up but I'm not as immediately aware of the trade-offs/advantages of the decisions I'm making there as I am in the main game.

Well six squaddies seems to be about how many you can fit on any particular battlefield without the map feeling overcrowded.

Heck, I just did one of those 'alleyway' style abduction maps meeting the Mutons for the first time. Yes indeed it was 'very difficult', lost two Lts. and one Cap. Don't know where I would have put the extra soldiers.

Perhaps that was in the design specifications? Smaller maps = better loading times for consoles = smaller squads. Don't get me wrong, I come from the age of Jagged Alliance / Fallout Tactics / Syndicate so 6 member teams is more than enough for me.

Besides all the complaining about fidelity to the original - we should be praising the fact that Jake and the team managed to make an accessible (yet still challenging) game that will introduce new fans to the TBS genre. I want to see this genre expand to include less 'hardcore' fans, rather than die a painful death (hello RTS).

UCRC wrote:
wanderingtaoist wrote:

So, do you guys also start to see blue shields behind objects in real life? My large flower pots have only half a shield, luckily the balcony railing has a full one.

Bathroom trips just got exciting.

They weren't exciting enough for you before?

IMAGE(http://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/im_pooping_cat_false_alarm.jpg?w=720)

Prozac wrote:

Then I'll probably shelve this. Not sure If I'll come back to it, which is sad.

I find this kind of an odd thing about this gaming community. On the one hand we talk about a sincere lack of time to play all our games on our pile. Heck, we've got dozens of threads for this. A pile of pile threads if you will. Then, on the other hand, when a game gives us a great time and we play it through to completion and are given the opportunity to put it on the shelf so we can enjoy our other games, we are saddened by this.

Just an observation.

Mex wrote:
oilypenguin wrote:

I accept my $5 punishment for waiting a week and a half until my birthday.

I accept it and shall now color code my people.

Red for Assaults, White for Medics, Blue for Heavies, Green for rookies and Black for Snipers :drink:

Brown or Orange for suicide Arc Thrower rookie

Bfgp wrote:

Well six squaddies seems to be about how many you can fit on any particular battlefield without the map feeling overcrowded.

Perhaps that was in the design specifications? Smaller maps = better loading times for consoles = smaller squads. Don't get me wrong, I come from the age of Jagged Alliance / Fallout Tactics / Syndicate so 6 member teams is more than enough for me.

Besides all the complaining about fidelity to the original - we should be praising the fact that Jake and the team managed to make an accessible (yet still challenging) game that will introduce new fans to the TBS genre. I want to see this genre expand to include less 'hardcore' fans, rather than die a painful death (hello RTS).

This is my general feeling about squad size as well. I trust that Firaxis did their numerous & fast iterations and they decided to prioritize shorter tactical battles. Instead of making the aliens even more lethal or your soldiers squishier, they went for the easier win of decreasing the max. squad size and tighter maps. I would have loved to be in testing with them when they had 8+ squad sizes and watched them go through the process of balancing that.

With the way EU is now, I don't know if I'd like the average time for a mission to go on for much longer. Some of those battles have some hard decisions and I just sit there and ponder. They made it work within the limitations they set for themselves and as a result you have a more accessible game that still retains that crunchy-ness the more hardcore strategy fan would enjoy.

I used blue for Heavies, black for Snipers, red for Support, and yellow for Assaults. Rookies got hot pink until they proved themselves.

My snipers are blue, heavies are yellow/orange, assault black, support red, and my rookies are green (natch).

I use

Assault = Blue
Heavy = Green
Support = Red
Sniper = Yellow

Rookies don't get a special color, despite being a Trekkie I'm not into red shirts.

Heavies: Pink with Guile hair. Even the chicks.

BlackSabre wrote:

I find this kind of an odd thing about this gaming community. On the one hand we talk about a sincere lack of time to play all our games on our pile. Heck, we've got dozens of threads for this. A pile of pile threads if you will. Then, on the other hand, when a game gives us a great time and we play it through to completion and are given the opportunity to put it on the shelf so we can enjoy our other games, we are saddened by this.

Just an observation.

I think that's more an indication of a game being good (Or potentially being good). Like a good book or movie, you don't want it to end - no matter how many books you read or films you see.

I like the game. I'm fine with 6 squad spaces - though I'd prefer that to be the default loadout and not have to work up to it... It makes no sense to me.

Prozac wrote:

Skimming a little but I kinda find it interesting that now the initial shine is off and people are starting to complain about "problems" we haven't seen Tamren in the thread. Maybe the flak he caught early for predicting some things people are complaining about was a little undeserved?

I have to say, after a crazy amount of time banging my head agaist classic iron man I'm powering through a normal no ironman (no reloads yet though) game just to see the late game and the end. Then I'll probably shelve this. Not sure If I'll come back to it, which is sad.

I complained about the things that annoyed me from the start!

For me, the game gets stale after the alien base mission. Up until that point you're still battling the aliens, afterwards it becomes a clean-up mission and once you get mid-high tech it's basically a cakewalk on normal. I've no idea how many hours I've put into the game but here's my game stats:

Game 1: Normal, reloads - tonnes of reloads to save my favourite guys. I was very gung-ho... Played until after alien base, got bored and switched to classic ironman
Game 2: Classic ironman beat me to death in about 5 -10 missions. I quit the game and deleted the save file (it was unwinnable)
Game 3: Classic ironman (Unwinnable)
Game 4: Classic ironman (Unwinnable)
Game 5: Classic modded ironman: unwinnable (even with alien increased crit chance off!)
Game 6: Classic modded ironman: unwinnable
Game 7: Normal Ironman: Fine until mid point and then a boring slog as i've researched the psi stuff and am having to down long-ass ship after long-ass ship that all are laid out the same... BORING!!! But I plan on finishing this one.

Oh, and I guess I did learn stuff from classic ironman because on my current game I have all nations with all satellites, lost quite a few of the squad though. Maybe I'll go back after this and try classic modded ironman one more time...

[edit] Oh yeah colours!

Rookies: Red shirt
Assault: Yellow
Heavy: Light blue
Support: Green
Sniper: White

Basically in the first 6 colours on the list :p

Functionally, it's not all that different, there are just more moving parts.

Having the original 16 units would allow much more complex tactics. The amount of skill you can deploy to master this game is far lower than it was in the original, because so many things have been removed.... one of which is 'overwhelming firepower from your carefully arranged multiple squads'. And you can do a lot to overcome a random number generator when you're firing ten times a round or more.

When you only get four or six shots, the RNG rules.

When you've got 16 units and close to fifty shots per round, tactics rule.

Colours:

Assault = Bumblebee Yellow
Heavies = Red
Support = White
Snipers = Green
Rookies = Default

The Support named after me = Electric Blue
The Sniper named after the missus - Hot Pink

For those of us who are color blind....

Rookies (default or #6)

Squadies #2
Corp #3
Sgt #4
Lt #5
CPT #6
MAJ #7
COL #8

I have no idea what color they are, but I still can see they are different.

Duoae wrote:

For me, the game gets stale after the alien base mission. Up until that point you're still battling the aliens, afterwards it becomes a clean-up mission and once you get mid-high tech it's basically a cakewalk on normal. I've no idea how many hours I've put into the game but here's my game stats:

Game 1: Normal, reloads - tonnes of reloads to save my favourite guys. I was very gung-ho... Played until after alien base, got bored and switched to classic ironman
Game 2: Classic ironman beat me to death in about 5 -10 missions. I quit the game and deleted the save file (it was unwinnable)
Game 3: Classic ironman (Unwinnable)
Game 4: Classic ironman (Unwinnable)
Game 5: Classic modded ironman: unwinnable (even with alien increased crit chance off!)
Game 6: Classic modded ironman: unwinnable
Game 7: Normal Ironman: Fine until mid point and then a boring slog as i've researched the psi stuff and am having to down long-ass ship after long-ass ship that all are laid out the same... BORING!!! But I plan on finishing this one.

Oh, and I guess I did learn stuff from classic ironman because on my current game I have all nations with all satellites, lost quite a few of the squad though. Maybe I'll go back after this and try classic modded ironman one more time...

Why not classic non-ironman?

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Why not classic non-ironman?

That's where I'm going, I think. I've won on normal ironman, but classic is too punishing for me to manage it (without more skill and luck, anyhow).

I think I'll opt for "save before each mission, reload if it fails" as my rule.

I usually have the same color uniform for all of my veterans and change it each game. You have to earn it though, only Corporal and above. Everyone else gets a red shirt till they make the grade.

About to start a mid-game Terror mission with all rookies, brb. . . .

Civilians, consider yourself all part of XCOM. Congratulations, welcome aboard. You will be my combat luring team.

Saw this on quarter to three, explains the cover mechanic quite well.
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/eqnBg.gif)

A graphical explanation of cover and line of sight rules: http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2012/10/25/a-view-to-a-kill-in-xcom/

Can't be sure it's 100% correct, but it fits what I've seen in play.

Edit: Tannhausered.

Rookies = Redshirted & given 1 complimentary grenade
Sniper = white
Support = blue
Heavy = yellow
Assault = green
Psi = purple

Quick question, how does everyone feel about Heavies? They're great for when things go bad and you want to unleash some destruction, but on normal I felt they started losing they're usefulness once my team started getting lasers and plasma guns. Towards the end I started preferring the accuracy of other classes over the pure destructive burst damage they could do.

Motleyai wrote:

Rookies = Redshirted & given 1 complimentary grenade
Sniper = white
Support = blue
Heavy = yellow
Assault = green
Psi = purple

Quick question, how does everyone feel about Heavies? They're great for when things go bad and you want to unleash some destruction, but on normal I felt they started losing they're usefulness once my team started getting lasers and plasma guns. Towards the end I started preferring the accuracy of other classes over the pure destructive burst damage they could do.

Suppression is pretty great, especially combined with holo targeting. I do think it uses too much ammo, but the fact that it always works regardless of your chance to hit is really good for locking down guys and then flanking them. It also seems to destroy cover a lot with more powerful weapons.

On the other side of things, Bullet Swarm gives you two shots in a row if you don't move, which can also be awesome. I usually only bring one heavy regardless though. Haven't done a mission yet where there wasn't at least one excellent rocket opportunity.

I assumed it was drawing a line from and to the centre of a square/hex like in boardgames.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Why not classic non-ironman?

I don't feel like reloading a lot - like I had done with my first normal playthrough... I like not having to worry about decisions backfiring. Maybe I'll give it a go.

I finished my Classic Ironman tonight. I did do some save scumming on the last mission as I launched before my veteran heavy was ready which left me gimped badly. For some reason I did not employ the trick I used in my regular Classic playthrough against the Sectopods which would have made me breeze through without the scumming. Oh well.

Hah, just found Tkyl's post about what happens if you fail. Hahahahahaha. Whoooo!

I think I need to put this game down for a while; it's my crack.

Additionally I had a downed UFO mission go sidewise about two thirds of the way through. Enemy Mutons and Berserkers kept pouring into the field. My lead Assault goes down under fire. No big deal, he's probably the 5th or 6th Assault to die so far. That is their fate. My Heavy gets charged by a Berserker and it can't be brought down in time. Colonel Heavy, it was good knowing you, gets smashed and his body crumples to the earth. The Berserker and two Mutons go down next. I still have four men so this shouldn't be too bad. Captain Support gets shot in the face and goes into critical condition. Three turns to wipe the remaining four Mutons and save him. A Rookie Heavy cleans one up. The two snipers take out two more. The rookie (who is carrying the spare medkit, bless her soul) throws caution to the wind and charges out into the open to stabilize my best Support.

She doesn't die! Miracle of miracles! Working forward slowly they eventually flank and kill the last Muton. Now to take a crack at the Sectoid Commanders. Oops clicked on the door by accident. Rookie Heavy is down, two snipers are left and they have to root out the Commanders. Hm, how to do it, how to do it. Sectoid Commander one generously runs into the open from cover and gets cracked by two critical overwatch hits. That was easy.

Now the second commander. I bet I'm going to have to go in with one sniper and try to bait hi- oh he's running into the open too. Two more critical overwatch hits and the mission is over. Half my squad is dead, the snipers each killed a good four or five enemies and those beautiful crossing laser beams marked the end.

Last night I introduced 3 Heavy Floaters to my Sniper's In The Zone skill and it was very, very satisfying to watch him snap off 3 kill shots in succession (including one in Overwatch).

LtWarhound wrote:
Gremlin wrote:
LtWarhound wrote:

Six is the sweet spot? Please. Breaking my squad down into real fire teams, maneuvering them in supporting crossfire, flanking and suppressing the aliens as I moved across the map, that was a core feature to X-Com. Forcing my team of 6 to stay huddled together because splitting up farther than overwatch can cover is suicidal is not what I consider the X-Com experience.

Human short term memory is limited to handling around seven objects. Once you get more than six guys in a squad, what you're really doing most of the time is splitting up into groups and moving those six or so groups around the map. Functionally, it's not all that different, there are just more moving parts.

Gremlin, did you actually read what I wrote, or just tossed this irrelevant factoid out and then went to get another cup of coffee?

Splitting my team of 8 to 14 soldiers up and moving them around the map is exactly what I said I wanted to do. Functionally its is very different. Interlocking self supporting squads allow for tactics that 6 soldiers forced into a single unit can't do. An element that was pretty important in the original, but removed from this remake.

Well, you may disagree with my reasoning, but let me try to clarify what I was thinking:

The soldiers in XCOM are more autonomous than in X-Com; that is, they are more self-sufficient and pack more tactical power in one package, due to firing from behind cover, 360 degree line-of-sight, the upgrade powers, etc. In terms of balance, I'd argue that each individual soldier is doing the work of two or three from the original. It's not exactly the same of course, but it's about the same level in terms of meaningful decision-making. This does remove some of the possibilities, but given the map size and mission length it's about the right number of units to be moving around. You're right that multiple-team tactics suffer. But, again, I consider a pair of soldiers in the remake to be functionally equivalent to the 3-6-soldier fire teams you were assembling in the original. To me, moving those groups was just a more time-consuming way to do functionally the same choice as moving one or two soldiers in the new one. You may disagree.

It's possible to design a squad-based tactics game that has more units on the field, but at that point I'd seriously consider revising the design to have the teams in explicit groups. Keep in mind I'm also thinking of the original's 26-soldier max deployment as the definition of way too big (for the design), not the 8-14 size. I can see an argument for adding another fire team of 3-5 soldiers, but you'd need much bigger maps than the new XCOM currently has. And for the moment I think that the battle length is just about right.

I'm not the most hardcore XCOM player; maybe this all changes on Classic or higher. I don't think it's a perfect game by any means, and I wouldn't be opposed to a wider battlefield, but I think I'd personally rather see more varieties in the missions, more branching in the strategic layer, and more integration between stuff that goes on in the tactical missions and stuff that goes on in the strategic layer.

I don't want this game to end. Besides the camera sometimes being wonky, this is my game of the year. Never had so much fun playing a game this year.

Classic Ironman is proving quite fun. I'm in May and have a decent squad with a fair bit of satellite coverage too. Really taking a lot longer with it than normal non-ironman. Lost 2 rookies so far but kept my main guys alive. 3 Majors so far, no Colonels yet. Laser weapons are helping out quite a bit now. But man, Thin men really put the hurt on when they critical hit you for 9 damage.