Crisis of faith in humanity and our future...

I don't even know where to begin. I just had the most racist and xenophobic conversation I've ever had in my life. There were four of us. Myself, two friends and "Guy A".

I've known my two friends for a while now but never thought that they harboured feelings and thoughts like this but Guy A just seemed to bring them out. He is a friend of one of my friends and he was unapologetically abrasive and racist; justified through "if they're racist to white people then I can be racist back - nothing personal! They all say nigga to each other so why can't I say it to them?!"

We went back and forth over various topics, "no go" cities like "London and New York" for white people, immigrants, intelligence, evolution.... me saying that the problems in Africa are mostly western nations' fault.... all sickening ridiculousnesses to my sensibilities. I don't know London that well or New York at all but it doesn't surprise me there are streets you avoid for all cultures.... but they were so extreme in their fervour. Eventually we got down to "all the intelligent people moved out of Africa - it's evolution" and "they all try and escape over here but they make it as sh*t as it is over there - they're animals" to "they do illegal stuff over here but get off with it because they don't know any better...".

It was pretty much at that point in the conversation that I left (after about an hour and a half of this crap). They said I was naive, unknowledgeable etc. there was no way to convince them of other viewpoints.... They confused genetic evolution with social change, they did not believe that people can be anything other than what their nature allows... and thus we were better than them and more right.

Right before I left Guy A trotted out that they were mostly (or was it all) Muslims and that you all saw black guys with pregnant women and that you'd have a muslim nation in a few years instead of the one we have now. My quite friend, who is young and who had largely not been involved in this conversation up until this point fervently agreed about this new threat and said it was "all true".

I feel disgusted at my friends. I feel despair at humanity. How do we progress? How do we improve? How do we go on? I'm a white, middle class man from an accepted country who has never had any discrimination in his life (and I hope I've not given any to anyone, even mistakenly) and I just don't know how people who are discriminated against manage to put up with it and move on and try and make things better. As a scientist I understand reasoned debate and I have played devil's advocate on many occasions but this isn't like that: it isn't rational and it isn't logical and it appears impervious to both...

My heart goes out to all oppressed and discriminated people in the world and I wish it could be different.

I'm not even sure what to call this thread but I just needed to talk about this experience and I have no one else.

[edit] Sorry the post is a bit confused and the spelling isn't that good.... I'm a bit out of sorts...
The worst part of it all was that, no matter how hard I tried, no matter what I said I was helpless in the face of their beliefs....

The worst part of it all was that, no matter how hard I tried, no matter what I said I was helpless in the face of their beliefs....

This is pretty typical. People will hold onto these sorts of ego justifying beliefs until the end of days. You can't rationalize with them because their views tend to be fear based and irrational.

If you need a reminder that there are decent people out there, go (re)read this thread.

garion333 wrote:
The worst part of it all was that, no matter how hard I tried, no matter what I said I was helpless in the face of their beliefs....

This is pretty typical. People will hold onto these sorts of ego justifying beliefs until the end of days. You can't rationalize with them because their views tend to be fear based and irrational.

If you need a reminder that there are decent people out there, go (re)read this thread.

Oh yeah, Guy A and one of my friends were pretty derogatory about gay people too. Since my mum is gay I was pretty offended by their nonsense crap. (Though, obviously, that wasn't the only reason!)

If it makes you feel any better, one hundred years ago people with those views would be everywhere and your more tolerant views would be the odd ones out. Imagine saying, in casual conversation, that gay people should be allowed marriage, in 1912.

We're progressing, we really are, it just takes many lifetimes

Duoae wrote:
garion333 wrote:
The worst part of it all was that, no matter how hard I tried, no matter what I said I was helpless in the face of their beliefs....

This is pretty typical. People will hold onto these sorts of ego justifying beliefs until the end of days. You can't rationalize with them because their views tend to be fear based and irrational.

If you need a reminder that there are decent people out there, go (re)read this thread.

Oh yeah, Guy A and one of my friends were pretty derogatory about gay people too. Since my mum is gay I was pretty offended by their nonsense crap. (Though, obviously, that wasn't the only reason!)

In my experience the only way this stuff changes is by being introduced to the "offending" party. Chances these friends of yours don't know any Muslims, gay people, etc. and if they do they don't know them well. The problem there is they probably have no interest in getting to know them. That's one of the nice things about workplaces, sometimes you get "stuck" with a person of a certain race, religion, etc. and get to know them.

Clearly this isn't a fail safe thing as some people will just never come around, but that's the only way I've seen people see the light.

People will make up their minds about things and fabricate whatever order they think they need so they can make sense of their universe. Their fabrications may be at odds with yours. It happens. People like that have always been part of humanity. I don't think I'd call someone with those kinds of beliefs a friend. Acquaintance? That's possible... but not beyond that.

LouZiffer wrote:

People will make up their minds about things and fabricate whatever order they think they need so they can make sense of their universe. Their fabrications may be at odds with yours. It happens. People like that have always been part of humanity. I don't think I'd call someone with those kinds of beliefs a friend. Acquaintance? That's possible... but not beyond that.

They were/are my friends. Like I said, this was the first conversation with them like this in over the year I've known them...

New York is great. I feel much safer safer in black neighborhoods of Brooklyn than anyplace in all-white Moscow, Russia, for example.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

New York is great. I feel much safer safer in black neighborhoods of Brooklyn than anyplace in all-white Moscow, Russia, for example.

Yup. I've lived here for my entire (non-college) life, and I felt safer here than I did in many all-white parts of Indiana (college).

I think people in general fear change and differences. Discrimination against race is more visible, but I see discrimination in people every day that has nothing to do about race but rather job, class, choice of clothes or cars, heck even what cell phone people have (I myself am guilty of discriminating against iPhones users).

In the end it sounds like Guy A has a superiority complex. Even if all his points are correct (I am not saying they are), it is smug (I am sure there are more harsh and more accurate words I could use to describe him) to act and think that way.

kazar wrote:

I think people in general fear change and differences. Discrimination against race is more visible, but I see discrimination in people every day that has nothing to do about race but rather job, class, choice of clothes or cars, heck even what cell phone people have (I myself am guilty of discriminating against iPhones users).

In the end it sounds like Guy A has a superiority complex. Even if all his points are correct (I am not saying they are), it is smug (I am sure there are more harsh and more accurate words I could use to describe him) to act and think that way.

Whoa whoa now..what's wrong about the bold part?

Yeah those people aren't friends. They're douchebags.

So mulling this over. And having just sent a letter to the FBI. It is painful/powerful in your life to have the bigotry of people you hold or held in esteem and love harbor such bigotry and ignorance.

KingGorilla wrote:

So mulling this over. And having just sent a letter to the FBI. It is painful/powerful in your life to have the bigotry of people you hold or held in esteem and love harbor such bigotry and ignorance.

The hell? Are you ratting people out, KG?

Malor wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

So mulling this over. And having just sent a letter to the FBI. It is painful/powerful in your life to have the bigotry of people you hold or held in esteem and love harbor such bigotry and ignorance.

The hell? Are you ratting people out, KG?

Snitches are a dying breed, but legal professionals have a code of ethics.

My wife's father sent a charming letter full of absolute insanity about the coming apocalypse, including his preparations for a shelter, guns, food. I know most of it is from his crazy church, but damn if it did not read like Manson's manifesto. A nut stops being harmless when he is armed and has bragged about threatening a census worker with it.

You know it is interesting that the first reaction I have had to the Muslim protesters that held up the rational signs condemning the assault on the Libyan Consulate was to go make a sign in (farsi?) that read, "We apologize that there are far too many people in the United States that fear Muslims and equate them all with terrorists. Please be patient with those of us who do not as we try and educate them."

I'd obviously have to get some help from someone who spoke the Arabic languages and to find out which one would be more appropriate.

KingGorilla wrote:

Snitches are a dying breed, but legal professionals have a code of ethics.

I wish those statements were true.

CannibalCrowley wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

Snitches are a dying breed, but legal professionals have a code of ethics.

I wish those statements were true.

I get mine from here.

But to the point, I am abusing my superpower to derail threads like John Henry.
An unfortunate part of life are those times when you realize people you love, like, have known for years either have changed into people you cannot stand, or you ignored these aspects before.

It is a sad state we live in to have friends and family turn out to be something we can no longer stomach. My advice would be to maybe write a mature e-mail, letting them know the way the conversation went was a place you did not like. That is if you think there is something you want to try and salvage there. But if this is a breaking point, it is a damn fine one. And there is not a shortage of good people to befriend. Maybe set up a slap and tickle/attend one in your area.

Duoae - sorry you had to experience this but one step for having hope for humanity is remembering you stood up to them. That's the only way it works.

But to the point, I am abusing my superpower to derail threads like John Henry.
An unfortunate part of life are those times when you realize people you love, like, have known for years either have changed into people you cannot stand, or you ignored these aspects before.

So you turned someone in to the FBI because you don't like them anymore?

Malor wrote:
But to the point, I am abusing my superpower to derail threads like John Henry.
An unfortunate part of life are those times when you realize people you love, like, have known for years either have changed into people you cannot stand, or you ignored these aspects before.

So you turned someone in to the FBI because you don't like them anymore?

No, if you scroll up a bit, you'll see KG turned someone in to the FBI for writing a convincing letter saying that they wanted to murder a government worker.

KingGorilla wrote:
Malor wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

So mulling this over. And having just sent a letter to the FBI. It is painful/powerful in your life to have the bigotry of people you hold or held in esteem and love harbor such bigotry and ignorance.

The hell? Are you ratting people out, KG?

Snitches are a dying breed, but legal professionals have a code of ethics.

My wife's father sent a charming letter full of absolute insanity about the coming apocalypse, including his preparations for a shelter, guns, food. I know most of it is from his crazy church, but damn if it did not read like Manson's manifesto. A nut stops being harmless when he is armed and has bragged about threatening a census worker with it.

Any idea what's behind the hate for census workers? Seems to be a common thread with nutbags.

Ah, I see, I missed it.

Yeah, armed is okay, bunker is okay, food is okay. Weird, but none of my business.

Killing census workers, however, is way, way not okay. I would probably do the exact same thing.

Well, to be fair, the Japanese internment camps were driven by Census records, so if you think the government is going to round you up and put you in a camp (which, in an era when the government has everyone under surveillance, and is openly assassinating its own citizens, is maybe not such a stretch), then when the Census Bureau got nasty about its questionnaires, they could easily perceive that as a threat.

They might even be right. If I were Muslim, I'd be afraid of the Census. It's clearly no threat to me, or to just about anyone who's white and not a convert to Islam, but that data has been used against unpopular minorities in the past.

Hadn't thought about that. Still doesn't justify violence against government workers, but the paranoia's a bit more understandable.

Duoae, at least tell us that none of those guys deal with the public on a regular basis and aren't in any positions of authority.

KingGorilla wrote:
CannibalCrowley wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

Snitches are a dying breed, but legal professionals have a code of ethics.

I wish those statements were true.

I get mine from here.

They might as well print it on courthouse toilet paper for all the good it does.

Bonus_Eruptus wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:
Malor wrote:
KingGorilla wrote:

So mulling this over. And having just sent a letter to the FBI. It is painful/powerful in your life to have the bigotry of people you hold or held in esteem and love harbor such bigotry and ignorance.

The hell? Are you ratting people out, KG?

Snitches are a dying breed, but legal professionals have a code of ethics.

My wife's father sent a charming letter full of absolute insanity about the coming apocalypse, including his preparations for a shelter, guns, food. I know most of it is from his crazy church, but damn if it did not read like Manson's manifesto. A nut stops being harmless when he is armed and has bragged about threatening a census worker with it.

Any idea what's behind the hate for census workers? Seems to be a common thread with nutbags.

The word idea has no place in reference to what I read.

Her dad has in person and in this letter, telling us to prepare for the coming race war, has a hyper inflated ego, delusions, and an unfounded sense of achievement. He is a sociopath. Worse, his is a sociopath in a sociopathic church with a sociopathic wife. He has a conspiratorial mindset. He scared off the census worker because "That monkey Obama doesn't need to know anything about him." Apparently my wife's father does not need $1,000 on his tax return either.

Knowing what I know, and of my obligations, I cannot sit idly by as he makes claims that he wants and looks forward to engaging in domestic terrorism. He is a nut with guns looking to turn them on government employees. I do not have a choice.

So basically, you met real-life versions of YouTube comments?

Duoae wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

People will make up their minds about things and fabricate whatever order they think they need so they can make sense of their universe. Their fabrications may be at odds with yours. It happens. People like that have always been part of humanity. I don't think I'd call someone with those kinds of beliefs a friend. Acquaintance? That's possible... but not beyond that.

They were/are my friends. Like I said, this was the first conversation with them like this in over the year I've known them...

I understand. No judgement was intended. It would bother me to hear something like that from someone whom I consider a friend. I'd either have to confront it, or reassess my relationship with that person. If they're young, maybe it's only an effort to fit in. Those are only my thoughts based on what I'm reading though. You know better than I.

CannibalCrowley wrote:

Duoae, at least tell us that none of those guys deal with the public on a regular basis and aren't in any positions of authority.

Guy A and one of my friends are quite old, >60. The other guy who was actually not taking part in the racism part of the conversation but was convinced about how the muslims would be taking over the country is about my age. The younger guy is friends with people of different ethnicities so I doubt he's racist and he is foreign so maybe he was having difficulties following our conversation because we were talking pretty fast in our agitated states...

I had a co-worker, who I respected and was friends with for years, one Day say that all muslims should be shipped out of the country. Even if they were US citizens. It was impossible not to lose respect for him during the conversation.

At my job now, ive had co-workers tell me gay marriage is bad for the country and makes the US move away from what the forefathers wanted, that Obama is a socialist and that Sharia Law will rule the country in a few years.

I totally understand how you feel.

karmajay wrote:

I had a co-worker, who I respected and was friends with for years, one Day say that all muslims should be shipped out of the country. Even if they were US citizens. It was impossible not to lose respect for him during the conversation.

At my job now, ive had co-workers tell me gay marriage is bad for the country and makes the US move away from what the forefathers wanted, that Obama is a socialist and that Sharia Law will rule the country in a few years.

I totally understand how you feel.

How will I get good Doner Kebab? Donlt deport the people that make my favorite foods.