If you are a (heterosexual) woman and you leaned one way or the other, my way to be masculine vis a vis you is to entertain whatever it is you preferred.
I prefer men who have a strong identity of their own and don't tailor themselves to what they think I will prefer. Seriously.
Not stating a definitive makes it difficult.
Well, a lot of women don't have a definitive list of what they always find sexy.
Not sure. What do you mean by "should" in this sentence? Parse differently.
I think that any person who identifies as a man ideally would define for himself what that means to him.
Larry, then what did you mean earlier in the thread when you said this?:
making maleness out to be nothing more than self-identifying as a man is also insulting to men.
I've skimmed, so not sure if this has been touched on already but as a father to a young son the question of how to be a man, and how to impart those lessons to him has been on my mind.
I was raised solely by women, but I was given positive role models through stories. I adopted the code I've lived by since my early teens from one such story and I hold to the code as my moral compass.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child
Do not lie, cheat or steal
These things are for lesser men
Protect the weak against the evil strong
and Never allow thoughts of gain to lead you in the pursuit of evil.
I've lived by that for the past 15 to 20 years, sometimes falling short, but always striving to uphold it and as a result I can look in the mirror and be proud of the man staring back at me. Holding to that code has led me to work in industries that allow me to make tangible impacts in people's lives on a daily basis.
For example the other day I had a former client of mine I've assisted into vocational training and employment, a 32 year old man who is living in emergency housing with an 8 month old son and a wife with post natal depression say to me that over the past few months he has on several occasions contemplated just walking away from it all and leave his family. He then went on to say that I'd helped him through our conversations by being a good man who reminds men of what they have to do to be good men. I'll admit that story got me dusty.
My point is that it takes more than identifying as male and having a penis.
I've skimmed, so not sure if this has been touched on already but as a father to a young son the question of how to be a man, and how to impart those lessons to him has been on my mind.
I was raised solely by women, but I was given positive role models through stories. I adopted the code I've lived by since my early teens from one such story and I hold to the code as my moral compass.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child
Do not lie, cheat or steal
These things are for lesser men
Protect the weak against the evil strong
and Never allow thoughts of gain to lead you in the pursuit of evil.I've lived by that for the past 15 to 20 years, sometimes falling short, but always striving to uphold it and as a result I can look in the mirror and be proud of the man staring back at me. Holding to that code has led me to work in industries that allow me to make tangible impacts in people's lives on a daily basis.
For example the other day I had a former client of mine I've assisted into vocational training and employment, a 32 year old man who is living in emergency housing with an 8 month old son and a wife with post natal depression say to me that over the past few months he has on several occasions contemplated just walking away from it all and leave his family. He then went on to say that I'd helped him through our conversations by being a good man who reminds men of what they have to do to be good men. I'll admit that story got me dusty.
My point is that it takes more than identifying as male and having a penis.
If you changed all references in this post to man and woman to person would the lesson change? Isn't that code how to be a good person? Wouldn't you help that guy with conversations about being a good person who reminds people what they have to do to be good people?
Yeah, you would. The lesson applies equally, and I don't want anyone to think that what I said is solely in the domain of 'Man'. But I was speaking of myself, a man. My thoughts regarding my son, a future man (or whatever he chooses to be) and a personal anecdote involving another man. Please don't misconstrue what I've said in response to posts I skimmed on the first page and take away from the meaning of what I've shared.
If you are a (heterosexual) woman and you leaned one way or the other, my way to be masculine vis a vis you is to entertain whatever it is you preferred.
I divorced a guy for this, fwiw.
LarryC is the Mitt Romney of masculinity.
It was a common dating problem for me until after I dated for a while. Now I am just like "Damn, baby, only so much of me."
LarryC is the Mitt Romney of masculinity.
I am what I am and that's all that I am.
I'm not gonna wear a ladies wetsuit—I'm a man! Get me a small man's wetsuit please.
I've skimmed a little but I think there's a massive misunderstanding that occurs when people hear the phrase "Be a Man".
Be a Man does not mean "Don't act like a Woman". It does not mean there are inherently male traits of strength and capability and inherently female traits of subservience and dependence.
Be a Man means "Don't be a Boy". It means grow up. Mature. Take responsibility for yourself and those who rely on you.
Well, mostly that's what it means. Anyone who means it in the first sense is probably worth ignoring.
Yin and yang. This is what it is. This is what it has always been. Westerners simply chose to use explicitly gendered descriptive words.
"Oh my GAWD! A spider! EEK!"
Embrace a little yang, bro.
Orphans? Who cares?
Show some yin, man.
It's a battle between passiveness and aggression.
I've skimmed a little but I think there's a massive misunderstanding that occurs when people hear the phrase "Be a Man".
Be a Man does not mean "Don't act like a Woman". It does not mean there are inherently male traits of strength and capability and inherently female traits of subservience and dependence.
Yeah, defining what it is to "be a man" by defining it in opposition to what it is to be a woman is definitely one of the more insidious and poisonous issues with the current, patriarchal constructs of (male) gender. And I, personally, can't imagine that it's broadly healthy to define such a core component of our self-realisation in terms of what's attractive to others.
Gender roles are quite clearly a set of psychological scripts that we learn; some of which are good, some benign and some damaging to ourselves and society as a whole. There's obviously very little in most gendered behaviour that is innate given how plastic gender is across cultures and across time. It's clear to me that on the way to becoming an adult I learnt, internalised and now perform all sorts of stuff around what it is to be a man. So to me, the question of "How to be a man" is a question that asks me to look at myself and society around me and to evaluate the scripts available to me, discarding those that are harmful. Perhaps the process also asks us to come up with new scripts although I'm not 100% clear on how I might productively go about that.
I suspect ultimately most of the things we would arrive at that makes us a "good" man probably just make us good people.
Maq wrote:I've skimmed a little but I think there's a massive misunderstanding that occurs when people hear the phrase "Be a Man".
Be a Man does not mean "Don't act like a Woman". It does not mean there are inherently male traits of strength and capability and inherently female traits of subservience and dependence.
Yeah, defining what it is to "be a man" by defining it in opposition to what it is to be a woman is definitely one of the more insidious and poisonous issues with the current, patriarchal constructs of (male) gender. And I, personally, can't imagine that it's broadly healthy to define such a core component of our self-realisation in terms of what's attractive to others.
Gender roles are quite clearly a set of psychological scripts that we learn; some of which are good, some benign and some damaging to ourselves and society as a whole. There's obviously very little in most gendered behaviour that is innate given how plastic gender is across cultures and across time. It's clear to me that on the way to becoming an adult I learnt, internalised and now perform all sorts of stuff around what it is to be a man. So to me, the question of "How to be a man" is a question that asks me to look at myself and society around me and to evaluate the scripts available to me, discarding those that are harmful. Perhaps the process also asks us to come up with new scripts although I'm not 100% clear on how I might productively go about that.
I suspect ultimately most of the things we would arrive at that makes us a "good" man probably just make us good people.
From what I see here there is a current cultural divide between UK and US in this thread. What you guys are describing is not what they are describing.
I don't think I ever remember anyone saying "be a man" but more "just grow up!". Or maybe, "man-up!". They all mean the same thing to me though: responsibility and the ability to deal with things as they crop up.
Similarly, when I was growing up. I never learnt how to "be a man" but to be an adult. But then, that could be from my own "unique" background... and sometimes I *do* feel at a disadvantage because of it.
I don't think I ever remember anyone saying "be a man" but more "just grow up!". Or maybe, "man-up!". They all mean the same thing to me though: responsibility and the ability to deal with things as they crop up.
You've never been somewhere where guys were egging each other on to drink more? "Yo, don't be a p*ssy and man-up" is not a phrase encouraging anyone to behave like an adult.
Similarly, when I was growing up. I never learnt how to "be a man" but to be an adult. But then, that could be from my own "unique" background... and sometimes I *do* feel at a disadvantage because of it.
Well no one ever sat me down and gave me man lessons either but I'm not so blind to the culture around me and my own behaviour that I can't see that there are all sorts of behaviours that are or are not acceptable or expected of men. Some are specific traits (not crying, being stoic, being strong, providing for etc...) and some are entire personality constructs (jocks, nerds etc...)
Also last time I looked Maq isn't from the UK.
Also last time I looked Maq isn't from the UK.
?? Maq's location:
Location: London
DanB wrote:Also last time I looked Maq isn't from the UK.
?? Maq's location:
Location: London
Lives there, but not born/raised there
ranalin wrote:DanB wrote:Also last time I looked Maq isn't from the UK.
?? Maq's location:
Location: LondonLives there, but not born/raised there
listening to him on vent/mumble you'd think he was
I desire a man with glasses. And yet I've heard several women say that they can't stand glasses. Is the solution to compromise and wear a monocle?
I have 60 more replies to read before I'm caught up, but this was so hilarious I had to stop for a second and laugh at my desk for awhile before continuing. Well done.
I don’t know if I'll be much help but the topic of asexuality was brought up and I thought I'd chip in. I am in fact a-sexual and self identify as male gendered. The lack of sexual attraction or impulses has (for me) no effect on my gender identity. I'd be happy to answer any questions those of you brighter then me (all of you) have.
Tanglebones wrote:ranalin wrote:DanB wrote:Also last time I looked Maq isn't from the UK.
?? Maq's location:
Location: LondonLives there, but not born/raised there
listening to him on vent/mumble you'd think he was :)
Now we need a new "How to be a Brit" thread, where we discuss whether being from England is just a social construct and whether anyone who self-identifies as British is British.
Madonna is not British.
Now we need a new "How to be a Brit" thread, where we discuss whether being from England is just a social construct and whether anyone who self-identifies as British is British.
You shut yer filthy pie-hole, pal. You can take the boy out of England, but you can't never take England out of the boy.
*sips tea*
*adjusts monocle*
Jonman:
Now we know why the ladies fall all over you. Gimme dat monocle!
Word. Let's face it, it ain't cos of this face
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