How to be a Man

Demyx:

Why? What other qualifications would you add?

Under what circumstances would you say to someone who identifies as a man, "No, you are not a man"?

Not the point.

I am not a woman. I do not see masculinity as something that others aspire to. I see it as something that I aspire to. So the relevant question is, "Under what circumstances would you say to yourself, 'I am not being a man?'" This challenge is something all men face before they can be comfortable with their identities. Many men do not achieve this internal, and externalize the struggle in various ways.

LarryC wrote:

Demyx:

Why? What other qualifications would you add?

Under what circumstances would you say to someone who identifies as a man, "No, you are not a man"?

Not the point.

I am not a woman. I do not see masculinity as something that others aspire to. I see it as something that I aspire to. So the relevant question is, "Under what circumstances would you say to yourself, 'I am not being a man?'" This challenge is something all men face before they can be comfortable with their identities. Many men do not achieve this internal, and externalize the struggle in various ways.

Why do you aspire to masculinity? How do you even define masculinity?

Demyx wrote:
LarryC wrote:

Just as focusing on the concerns of men in the Feminist thread could be insulting to the plight of women, making maleness out to be nothing more than self-identifying as a man is also insulting to men.

Why? What other qualifications would you add?

Under what circumstances would you say to someone who identifies as a man, "No, you are not a man"?

If all there is to being a man is to identify as a man, then doesn't that make gender identification meaningless? Just a matter of...SEMANTICS!

I think the logic here is that anyone who identifies as a man will want to do so because of something other than not wanting to type out those extra two letters. There will be no circumstances where you would say to someone who identifies as a man that they are not a man, because in every circumstance, they will meet the other criteria.

I'm not sure I see the disagreement here. What is the difference between identifying as a man and striving to meet the self-imposed standards that identification requires?

SixteenBlue:

Why do you aspire to masculinity? How do you even define masculinity?

I aspire to it because I identify myself as a man; so I must aspire to realize that identity.

For me, masculinity is defined by what women desire sexually. In a very direct way, women define what it is to be a man, because they are the only judges I consider relevant. I do not want men to admire me. I want women to desire me. However, I did not come to that conclusion easily.

LarryC wrote:

Not the point.

But it is. This entire thread hinges on how you define what it means to be a man.

I am not a woman. I do not see masculinity as something that others aspire to. I see it as something that I aspire to. So the relevant question is, "Under what circumstances would you say to yourself, 'I am not being a man?'" This challenge is something all men face before they can be comfortable with their identities. Many men do not achieve this internal, and externalize the struggle in various ways.

How is wanting to be a better man different from wanting to be a better person?

Shouldn't every man decide for himself what masculinity means to him, if masculinity is indeed important to him?

LarryC wrote:

SixteenBlue:

Why do you aspire to masculinity? How do you even define masculinity?

I aspire to it because I identify myself as a man; so I must aspire to realize that identity.

For me, masculinity is defined by what women desire sexually. In a very direct way, women define what it is to be a man, because they are the only judges I consider relevant. However, I did not come to that conclusion easily.

Women do not desire any specific thing sexually. They are all different. You can aspire to be what a specific woman desires but you can not be what women desire. That does not exist.

LarryC wrote:

SixteenBlue:

Why do you aspire to masculinity? How do you even define masculinity?

I aspire to it because I identify myself as a man; so I must aspire to realize that identity.

For me, masculinity is defined by what women desire sexually. In a very direct way, women define what it is to be a man, because they are the only judges I consider relevant. However, I did not come to that conclusion easily.

Heh--I was going to suggest that it's just sexual orientation: being a man is either being someone who is orientated towards same-sex attraction with people who also identify as male, or being someone who is orientated towards opposite-sex attraction with people who identify as female.

The criterion could be that simple, that liberated.

Seth wrote:

I'm not sure I see the disagreement here. What is the difference between identifying as a man and striving to meet the self-imposed standards that identification requires?

The difference is this:

Identifying as something and satisfying yourself that you justified that identity are two different things. This is made apparent by the behavior of men who are insecure about their own masculinity, but who fervently wish to identify as a man for various reasons.

Demyx:

But it is. This entire thread hinges on how you define what it means to be a man.

I draw a distinction between holding myself to my standards and holding others to my standards.

How is wanting to be a better man different from wanting to be a better person?

Shouldn't every man decide for himself what masculinity means to him, if masculinity is indeed important to him?

"Should" and "is" are different things. I am not sure it makes sense to say that manliness is meaningless because it's different for every person.

SixteenBlue:

Women do not desire any specific thing sexually. They are all different. You can aspire to be what a specific woman desires but you can not be what women desire. That does not exist.

Brad argues otherwise.

Larry, if you agree that the masculinity you aspire to is something you thought about for yourself, and every other man is free to define masculinity how they wish, then there is no disagreement.

Mmm. Don't forget people who aren't particularly interested in sex with anybody. They can also identify as being either male or female.

If it seems simple, it's probably wrong.

Yeahbut, the definition of masculinity is a moving target. It changes over time and changes due to location (different countries, cities, neighborhoods, families, peer groups...). Ultimately, as you get older, one would hope you're able to step back and look at the man you are, the man you want to be, and the man that others say you should be, and see how those things overlap and fit together, or not.

At 42 I'm going through this right now and trying to square some things up. (Extra info: I'm not happy with where I'm at.)

How to be a man:

Step 1: Take your given name
Step 2: Add "man" as a suffix

*mic-drop*

[size=1]So, basically what SixteenBlue said in the first response. [/size]

Seth wrote:
LarryC wrote:
muttonchop wrote:
LarryC wrote:

What's meant by the idioms, "Be a man!" or "Man up?" I've never really glommed on to what they're supposed to mean.

Toughen up, be brave, stop hesitating/complaining/crying, etc. Generally used to encourage and/or humiliate someone who isn't currently embodying the rugged manly man stereotype.

Interesting. In the sense that men are counterparts and conceivably opposites to women, do these phrases subtly imply that women are complaining, cowardly, and weak?

Yes. That is why, linguistically, they are subtly insulting to half of the population.

Technically, it's insulting to 100% of the population:

- it's insulting to men because you are implying that they lack masculinity (however that's defined)
- it's insulting to women for the aforementioned reasons.

Demyx wrote:

Larry, if you agree that the masculinity you aspire to is something you thought about for yourself, and every other man is free to define masculinity how they wish, then there is no disagreement.

That's the part where there is. It's NOT something I just thought about for myself, and few men are free to define masculinity the way we want, especially when men are constantly being bombarded by images of what "manning up" is supposed to be.

LarryC wrote:

There are themes in the Feminist thread about how confusing it can be to fulfill social and self-expectations of what a "man" is supposed to be. KingGorilla posted this:

Chivalry is sexist.

totally not the direction i expected it to go. I was told years ago (never bothered to research if it was true or not) that the act of holding a door open was actually sexist because of where it originated. They told me that men would allow women/children to go in front of them to catch or 'discover' booby traps.

Another thing that this makes me think of is how this line of thinking or way of acting is linked to the S&M culture.

I dated a girl for awhile and we ended up breaking up because i wasnt 'manly' enough. She was a pure sub and wasnt happy unless she was entirely guided along the way. It was totally frustrating because while she was extremely intelligent she was incapabable of thinking for herself or make up her own mind. Which in the end is not what i want in a woman.

What's kinda ironic is i was really taken with this girl and was determined to treat her right. The years leading up to this i had been a womanizing prick and just going out for one thing only and didnt want a relationship. Because i didnt try and (came to find out from another friend, she wanted this physically too) treat her like a piece a meat i wasn't being a 'man'. So i got dumped because for once i was trying to be respectful and courteous.

LarryC wrote:

SixteenBlue:

Women do not desire any specific thing sexually. They are all different. You can aspire to be what a specific woman desires but you can not be what women desire. That does not exist.

Brad argues otherwise.

What does this mean?

Edit: Regardless, you said "women." Some women don't desire men. Are they no longer feminine? You can't use gender roles to define your gender role.

CheezePavilion wrote:
LarryC wrote:

SixteenBlue:

Why do you aspire to masculinity? How do you even define masculinity?

I aspire to it because I identify myself as a man; so I must aspire to realize that identity.

For me, masculinity is defined by what women desire sexually. In a very direct way, women define what it is to be a man, because they are the only judges I consider relevant. However, I did not come to that conclusion easily.

Heh--I was going to suggest that it's just sexual orientation: being a man is either being someone who is orientated towards same-sex attraction with people who also identify as male, or being someone who is orientated towards opposite-sex attraction with people who identify as female.

The criterion could be that simple, that liberated.

What about people who are a-sexual?

LarryC wrote:

That's the part where there is. It's NOT something I just thought about for myself, and few men are free to define masculinity the way we want, especially when men are constantly being bombarded by images of what "manning up" is supposed to be.

I realize that many men do not feel free to define masculinity however they want to, I'm saying that's how it should be.

If you want to discuss the various difficulties that men who don't conform to society face, that's a great topic, but you should probably state some specifics, I think.

Demyx wrote:
LarryC wrote:

That's the part where there is. It's NOT something I just thought about for myself, and few men are free to define masculinity the way we want, especially when men are constantly being bombarded by images of what "manning up" is supposed to be.

I realize that many men do not feel free to define masculinity however they want to, I'm saying that's how it should be.

If you want to discuss the various difficulties that men who don't conform to society face, that's a great topic, but you should probably state some specifics, I think.

Again, Demyx hits it out of the park. There's a big difference between "How to be a man" and "How to be what Western society has defined as a man."

SixteenBlue:

What does this mean?

Edit: Regardless, you said "women." Some women don't desire men. Are they no longer feminine? You can't use gender roles to define your gender role.

Being as I'm not interested in women who will not have sex with me on the basis of my having a dick, I think it's self-explanatory that I don't really give a damn about their opinion on how manly or sexually desirable I am. I'm not out to define femininity, since I don't aspire to be feminine.

Finding out what women find sexy doesn't impose any gender role on them. Desire is not a role.

Demyx:

I realize that many men do not feel free to define masculinity however they want to, I'm saying that's how it should be.

If you want to discuss the various difficulties that men who don't conform to society face, that's a great topic, but you should probably state some specifics, I think.

Sounds good, but what does it mean? Should I define what "plug," means? If I use it the way I mean without telling anyone, what purpose does it serve? "Everyone should be free to define what plug means for them!" It's got a cool ring to it, but it's insane.

Masculinity is a self-role and a form of self-identity, but it is also a social role and a way of communication. We can't just all define it the way we want or it loses all meaning.

As for difficulties, how about wearing dresses? I still can't wear a pink dress, even if I wanted to. I can't wear make up without facing severe social sanctions. "Should" and "is" are very, very different things.

LarryC wrote:

SixteenBlue:

What does this mean?

Edit: Regardless, you said "women." Some women don't desire men. Are they no longer feminine? You can't use gender roles to define your gender role.

Being as I'm not interested in women who will not have sex with me on the basis of my having a dick, I think it's self-explanatory that I don't really give a damn about their opinion on how manly or sexually desirable I am. I'm not out to define femininity, since I don't aspire to be feminine.

Finding out what women find sexy doesn't impose any gender role on them. Desire is not a role.

Well you defined masculinity (i.e. manhood) based off what women find desirable. Now you've limited it to a subset of those women (the ones that already find people like you (i.e. what we're calling men in this conversation) desirable). It's self-defining and tells us nothing.

Edit: Wait desire isn't a role but you define the male gender role by being desired?

SixteenBlue:

Well you defined masculinity (i.e. manhood) based off what women find desirable. Now you've limited it to a subset of those women (the ones that already find people like you (i.e. what we're calling men in this conversation) desirable). It's self-defining and tells us nothing.

Alright. Let's be super-specific. I want all those women who find any person of the Top 100 Sexy Men lists even remotely desirable sexually. Their opinion matters to me.

Wait desire isn't a role but you define the male gender role by being desired?

I'm not seeing the disconnect. Wanting something is not a role. Playing to that want is.

LarryC wrote:

SixteenBlue:

Well you defined masculinity (i.e. manhood) based off what women find desirable. Now you've limited it to a subset of those women (the ones that already find people like you (i.e. what we're calling men in this conversation) desirable). It's self-defining and tells us nothing.

Alright. Let's be super-specific. I want all those women who find any person of the Top 100 Sexy Men lists even remotely desirable sexually. Their opinion matters to me.

So to summarize, you identify yourself as male and therefore strive to be masculine to realize that identity. You define masculinity by what culture has decided is attractive in a man. Correct?

garion333 wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:
LarryC wrote:

SixteenBlue:

Why do you aspire to masculinity? How do you even define masculinity?

I aspire to it because I identify myself as a man; so I must aspire to realize that identity.

For me, masculinity is defined by what women desire sexually. In a very direct way, women define what it is to be a man, because they are the only judges I consider relevant. However, I did not come to that conclusion easily.

Heh--I was going to suggest that it's just sexual orientation: being a man is either being someone who is orientated towards same-sex attraction with people who also identify as male, or being someone who is orientated towards opposite-sex attraction with people who identify as female.

The criterion could be that simple, that liberated.

What about people who are a-sexual?

That's a damn good question. My guess is the answer lies somewhere in the direction of the other side of this: the different kinds of bisexuality and third sex individuals.

SixteenBlue:

So to summarize, you identify yourself as male and therefore strive to be masculine to realize that identity. You define masculinity by what culture has decided is attractive in a man. Correct?

Not culture. Women. Actual, real women. What popular culture tells us attracts women and what actually attracts women are often very different from each other. I just used a pop culture list because you were pressuring me to define my target population.

LarryC wrote:

Finding out what women find sexy doesn't impose any gender role on them. Desire is not a role.

Some women find women sexy. Should you then, aspire, to be more feminine?

I desire a man with glasses. And yet I've heard several women say that they can't stand glasses. Is the solution to compromise and wear a monocle?

That's just my way of saying that there is no one standard of what women find sexy, seriously. There are certain things that will attract more women than other things and I guess if that's your main goal, go for it. But wouldn't it be more productive to find out what sort of woman you would like and think about what things you might do to attract that sort of woman?

It's got a cool ring to it, but it's insane.

A plug is a physical object. Masculinity is an abstract concept, like love or honor. I think you know that very well.

As for difficulties, how about wearing dresses? I still can't wear a pink dress, even if I wanted to. I can't wear make up without facing severe social sanctions. "Should" and "is" are very, very different things.

It is indeed true that a man wearing a pink dress or makeup will face social sanctions, and I do not think this should be the case. What you wear has nothing to do with whether or not you are a man.

CheezePavilion wrote:

That's a damn good question. My guess is the answer lies somewhere in the direction of the other side of this: the different kinds of bisexuality and third sex individuals.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, gender identification is mostly independent from sexual preference. >_>

LarryC wrote:

SixteenBlue:

So to summarize, you identify yourself as male and therefore strive to be masculine to realize that identity. You define masculinity by what culture has decided is attractive in a man. Correct?

Not culture. Women. Actual, real women. What popular culture tells us attracts women and what actually attracts women are often very different from each other. I just used a pop culture list because you were pressuring me to define my target population.

What women find attractive is still HEAVILY influenced by what culture says is attractive and by culture as a whole.

Hypatian wrote:

Or perhaps, just perhaps, gender identification has nothing to do with sexuality. >_>

This is what I'm driving at. All of these definitions are about our cultures and have nothing to do with our genders.

Demyx wrote:

I desire a man with glasses. And yet I've heard several women say that they can't stand glasses. Is the solution to compromise and wear a monocle?

Yes, this.