"A Game of Thrones" Spoiler-Ridden Catch-All of Doom - books and HBO show

boogle wrote:

It sucked because it appears to be bookended (fingers crossed) by books of Tyrion being awesome.

GRRM seems to do this a lot - nobody is allowed to kick ass for very long unless they either subsequently die, get screwed over, or spend even more time just wandering around doing nothing.

I really disliked 4 and 5. It's not about battle versus backroom politics; it's about characters I have an interest in actually doing things versus... not. I get very frustrated when every character I have some investment in in is sitting on the sidelines as GRRM brings even more extras onto the stage. Given how many pieces are already in play, adding even more is asking for a lot of patience from the reader; considering that half of the PoV characters didn't even get scenes in Book 4, it seems like the last thing we need are more characters to muddy the waters even further.

gore wrote:

half of the PoV characters didn't even get scenes in Book 4

If I recall correctly, Books 3 and 4 are essentially one book that got so big he had to divide it in half. Instead of doing it chronologically, he chose to divide it by characters. Again, if I recall correctly, it even says as much in the forward or introduction to one or both of them.

On the other hand, Arya's Stone-Cold Killah Training was pretty sweet. Those were some of my favorite bits of the last two books.

Grumpicus wrote:
gore wrote:

half of the PoV characters didn't even get scenes in Book 4

If I recall correctly, Books 3 and 4 are essentially one book that got so big he had to divide it in half. Instead of doing it chronologically, he chose to divide it by characters. Again, if I recall correctly, it even says as much in the forward or introduction to one or both of them.

Books 4 and 5, yes. But I don't think that's good - do you?

Basically, I interpret that as having an entire extra book's worth of stuff that really should have been edited out.

gore wrote:
Grumpicus wrote:
gore wrote:

half of the PoV characters didn't even get scenes in Book 4

If I recall correctly, Books 3 and 4 are essentially one book that got so big he had to divide it in half. Instead of doing it chronologically, he chose to divide it by characters. Again, if I recall correctly, it even says as much in the forward or introduction to one or both of them.

Books 4 and 5, yes. But I don't think that's good - do you?

Basically, I interpret that as having an entire extra book's worth of stuff that really should have been edited out.

I agree they were drier and less plot forwarding than the others. Significantly so. But, I am not sure if that will entirely hold true upon revisiting after the next book(s), wherein events or conversations there may prove that there was more in the subtext than what was originally understood. Doesn't make them anymore palatable though.

I do know that he had originally planned to advance the plot by many years, but kept referring to events from this period that were critical, and so with the agreement from his editor, went back to deliver those missing years.

HedgeWizard wrote:

I do know that he had originally planned to advance the plot by many years, but kept referring to events from this period that were critical, and so with the agreement from his editor, went back to deliver those missing years.

While I do think that these books dragged a bit, I still enjoyed them for the most part (and Feast was actually far more enjoyable upon re-reading than it was the first time I read it; I suspect Dance will be the same way when I re-read it before Winds), and I also am anticipating how this build-up is all going to blow up in everyone's faces.

It is hard for me to really tell the difference in the pacing of the individual novels, because I listened to them all as one long epic, but it definitely drags in places. His style reminds me a lot of Stephen King's. Both are great at writing horror, but their Achilles heel is verbosity. Their success has kept the editors' pens at bay and fans (myself included) enjoy meandering through their imaginary worlds for as long as possible. I think if you forced a page limit on both writers, the stories would be stronger for it, but I doubt that will ever happen.

Crowdsource time: I had a customer the other day who was buying books for her boyfriend. The boyfriend--about age 30--had just finished reading his first ever fantasy books, GRRM's series, and was looking for something else because he had really liked those. I reccomend Tigana, The Name of the Wind, and The Briar King as possible next books.

Any other books that would hit the GRRM spot? How off/on were those reccomendations?

Squee9 wrote:

Crowdsource time: I had a customer the other day who was buying books for her boyfriend. The boyfriend--about age 30--had just finished reading his first ever fantasy books, GRRM's series, and was looking for something else because he had really liked those. I reccomend Tigana, The Name of the Wind, and The Briar King as possible next books.

Any other books that would hit the GRRM spot? How off/on were those reccomendations?

Name of the Wind is spot-on. I haven't read The Briar King, so can't comment on it. Tigana's not bad either, though definitely more of a romance than GRRM's books.

More recommendations in the same vein:
Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
Wizard's First Law by Joe Abercrombie

Not in the same vein, but definitely worth reading:
Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny
Discworld by Terry Pratchett
Dresden Files by Jim Butcher

I second the recommendation for Lies of Locke Lamora. It's like a whole book following Arya if Arya was an orphan boy instead of an orphan girl.

Tanglebones wrote:
Squee9 wrote:

Crowdsource time: I had a customer the other day who was buying books for her boyfriend. The boyfriend--about age 30--had just finished reading his first ever fantasy books, GRRM's series, and was looking for something else because he had really liked those. I reccomend Tigana, The Name of the Wind, and The Briar King as possible next books.

Any other books that would hit the GRRM spot? How off/on were those reccomendations?

Name of the Wind is spot-on. I haven't read The Briar King, so can't comment on it. Tigana's not bad either, though definitely more of a romance than GRRM's books.

More recommendations in the same vein:
Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
Wizard's First Law by Joe Abercrombie

Not in the same vein, but definitely worth reading:
Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny
Discworld by Terry Pratchett
Dresden Files by Jim Butcher

Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy is also good.

Perhaps we should send him down the black hole that is Steven Erickson, no?

garion333 wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
Squee9 wrote:

Crowdsource time: I had a customer the other day who was buying books for her boyfriend. The boyfriend--about age 30--had just finished reading his first ever fantasy books, GRRM's series, and was looking for something else because he had really liked those. I reccomend Tigana, The Name of the Wind, and The Briar King as possible next books.

Any other books that would hit the GRRM spot? How off/on were those reccomendations?

Name of the Wind is spot-on. I haven't read The Briar King, so can't comment on it. Tigana's not bad either, though definitely more of a romance than GRRM's books.

More recommendations in the same vein:
Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
Wizard's First Law by Joe Abercrombie

Not in the same vein, but definitely worth reading:
Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny
Discworld by Terry Pratchett
Dresden Files by Jim Butcher

Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy is also good.

Perhaps we should send him down the black hole that is Steven Erickson, no? ;)

Oy vey. Let the man live a little first

Robin Hobb is a great author, but she depresses me more than just about anyone else, through her capacity to abuse PoV characters. I couldn't make it through the Soldier's Son trilogy.

Seconding Locke Lamora and Name of the Wind.

Also love "Malazan Book of the Fallen" by Steven Erickson. A lot more epic and confusing than GRRM, less focused on a small group of individuals and more focused on a lot of individuals' roles in a convoluted but totally original world. Still managed to be surprisingly intimate, though.

Tanglebones wrote:
Squee9 wrote:

Crowdsource time: I had a customer the other day who was buying books for her boyfriend. The boyfriend--about age 30--had just finished reading his first ever fantasy books, GRRM's series, and was looking for something else because he had really liked those. I reccomend Tigana, The Name of the Wind, and The Briar King as possible next books.

Any other books that would hit the GRRM spot? How off/on were those reccomendations?

Name of the Wind is spot-on. I haven't read The Briar King, so can't comment on it. Tigana's not bad either, though definitely more of a romance than GRRM's books.

More recommendations in the same vein:
Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
Wizard's First Law by Joe Abercrombie

Not in the same vein, but definitely worth reading:
Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny
Discworld by Terry Pratchett
Dresden Files by Jim Butcher

These are all fine, except it's the First Law trilogy by Abercrombie. You seemed to have conflated the series title with Wizard's First Rule, which is blech!

First book is "The Blade Itself." A very pulpy, gritty action oriented series for sure.

I really enjoyed Goodkind though...

Anyway, I considered Erikson and Robert Jordan, but they seemed a little too VLFNy. Scott Lynch is another good thought, though I was worried the characters were a little young compared to what's going on in GRRM. The same holds true for The Briar King actually, which is the start of a great four part series by Keyes. This was my lesser known reccomendation, but if y'all haven't read it, get on it! It's very quotable, and the introduction chapter is a great dive in to a world.

I should probably worry less about the age of the characters when they are well written, but for some reason the fact that the boyfriend was over 30 was made clear to me so I put some importance on it. Kind of a new can of worms, but should I be paying attention to that? (side note: I'm that young guy (23).)

Thanks for the catch, Hedge - It's been a while since I read those. Seconding the blech for Goodkind

Go for Lies of Locke and Discworld.

Tanglebones wrote:

Robin Hobb is a great author, but she depresses me more than just about anyone else, through her capacity to abuse PoV characters. I couldn't make it through the Soldier's Son trilogy.

Soldier's Son was not very good. She definitely abuses her characters, but I still think those first set of trilogies she wrote are excellent. Her latest two, not so much.

And I liked Goodkind's first few books. Then they went rapidly downhill and by then I'd read more interesting modern fantasy. Goodkind would be a step back from GRRM, for sure.

The only true step up is Erickson. Muahaahahahahahaa!

It's historical fiction, but I think a lot of fantasy readers would enjoy Bernard Cornwell's Saxon Chronicles series. Some similarity to GRRM in the depictions of politics and brutality.

Just finished A Dance With Dragons. I don't think I'm ready to process it yet, still recovering.

conejote wrote:

It's historical fiction, but I think a lot of fantasy readers would enjoy Bernard Cornwell's Saxon Chronicles series. Some similarity to GRRM in the depictions of politics and brutality.

I second this motion.

How about Thomas Covenant? Admittedly, it's been about 25 years since I read those.

Squee9 wrote:

Any other books that would hit the GRRM spot? How off/on were those reccomendations?

If I recall, Martin was initially inspired to write his series after reading Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. It's definitely in the same vein as Jordan and Goodkind but has the advantage of conclusively ending after 3 books (4 paperback). I greatly enjoyed it. Granted this was a good 15 years ago.

I found the Long Price Quartet series by Abraham to be quite delicious.

For your entertainment, I present my abridged summary of the beginning of Wizard's First Rule, which I posted on a now-abandoned personal blog years ago after getting five chapters in and giving it up as a bad job.

gewy wrote:
Squee9 wrote:

Any other books that would hit the GRRM spot? How off/on were those reccomendations?

If I recall, Martin was initially inspired to write his series after reading Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. It's definitely in the same vein as Jordan and Goodkind but has the advantage of conclusively ending after 3 books (4 paperback). I greatly enjoyed it. Granted this was a good 15 years ago.

Memory Sorrow & Thorn is one of the best series I have ever read. To Green Angel Tower remains my favorite book of all time. I highly recommend.

Lots of good thoughts, but the die has been cast! I'll let you all know what the guy decides and how he reacts. It's not every day I get to watch someone's tastes in fantasy develope.

Most fantasy readers are disgruntled, bearded, and already have strong opinions about Goodkind and Jordan, two authors that I really like that get a lot of flack.

To be fair though, the criticisms are usually legit, it just depends on whether you enjoy the good parts enough to overlook that bad parts.

Nevin73 wrote:
gewy wrote:
Squee9 wrote:

Any other books that would hit the GRRM spot? How off/on were those reccomendations?

If I recall, Martin was initially inspired to write his series after reading Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. It's definitely in the same vein as Jordan and Goodkind but has the advantage of conclusively ending after 3 books (4 paperback). I greatly enjoyed it. Granted this was a good 15 years ago.

Memory Sorrow & Thorn is one of the best series I have ever read. To Green Angel Tower remains my favorite book of all time. I highly recommend.

+∞

LiquidMantis wrote:

How about Thomas Covenant? Admittedly, it's been about 25 years since I read those.

Depends on whether or not you want your protagonist to be a loathsome human being.

Lets see I would go with Weave World which is a epic story about a world inside a carpet. The book has everything from angels to women giving birth to monsters. Large sections of the book take part in the real world. The ending comes out of nowhere though but was still fun. Also the Talisman and the sequel Black House which are basically offshoots of The Dark Tower story. You'll get to see what happens when a werewolf gets locked in a orphanage with a bunch of kids. You also get to see what happens when you go around breaking the beams that hold up the universe, it isn't good. I believe King and the other guy are working on a third book also.