Torchlight 2 Catch-All

LobsterMobster wrote:

Maybe I'm cynical, but I feel like an MMO is basically just a multiplayer game with really slow progression and/or additional fees.

I guess my question would be, why do you want a Torchlight MMO?

For me, when I think of Perfect World the first thing I imagine is that slow progression and what you can buy to accelerate your progress.

I guess to an extent it goes hand in hand with what most associate with MMOs, monthly subscriptions or F2P microtransactions. For the first it means they want you to hang around to pay the sub month after month, so you can't go too quickly, for the second they need to make it so there's a positive incentive to buy their stuff, boosts, items, etc.

(I noted how much care I took in wording most of that positively rather than negatively)

It's reasons like this that I hope games like Guild Wars and now GW2 which is a full fledged MMO now, light a bit of a fire under the MMO market. I don't expect it to change anything overnight, but while it comes down as "buy to play"+microtransactions, at it's core it's a really good game (IMHO) and you don't feel like one arm is held behind your back if you don't open your wallet after the initial game purchase.

Regarding Torchlight2 versus TL MMO, the word that stands out for me is 'massively'. I'm really not sure what TL would gain from going into a big persistent world. Part of that is down to viewing TL for what it is now, and the massive overhauls it would need to multiple systems in order to get 'up to spec' with most other MMOs. Crafting is one which is currently non-existent, PvP would probably turn the game on it's head. They kind-of did a big world in Mythos, and kind-of did persistent shared areas in some of the later betas.

The result I see would be very different to what TL is now. I'm still not sure what the big draw would be for TL MMO compared to any other game.

shoptroll wrote:

Sept. 21st. Calling it now.

In Travis' forum post, he did say "We are still aiming for Summer," which ends on the 21st. But considering that TL1 released on a Tuesday, I expect TL2 will release on the 18th, the same day as Borderlands 2. Which means, as I said in my previous rant post about a week or two ago, that TL2 will be put on the pile until I'm done with Borderlands 2.

Assuming that's what happens, I suspect that Runic and Perfect World may lose a lot of full-price sales as people buy Borderlands 2 instead, then wait and get TL2 during the Steam winter sale for half price.

MeatMan wrote:
shoptroll wrote:

Sept. 21st. Calling it now.

In Travis' forum post, he did say "We are still aiming for Summer," which ends on the 21st. But considering that TL1 released on a Tuesday, I expect TL2 will release on the 18th, the same day as Borderlands 2. Which means, as I said in my previous rant post about a week or two ago, that TL2 will be put on the pile until I'm done with Borderlands 2.

Assuming that's what happens, I suspect that Runic and Perfect World may lose a lot of full-price sales as people buy Borderlands 2 instead, then wait and get TL2 during the Steam winter sale for half price.

Yeah, I think they've screwed the pooch somewhat "polishing" the crap out of this game. Their timing couldn't be worse with the release of BL2, another loot-focused action game. I hope for their sake I'm wrong.

Perhaps they're assuming that the vast majority of those interested have already pre-ordered TL2. I know the price will help vs. other AAA titles, but a late June/early July really would have been optimal--post D3 hype/pre-AAA season.

The best thing to do would be to pull a Saturn and release on the day of the announcement, or the week after. In either case, they've likely waited to long given other releasing games of similar interest.

cyrax wrote:

The best thing to do would be to pull a Saturn and release on the day of the announcement, or the week after. In either case, they've likely waited to long given other releasing games of similar interest.

It'll be our little secret.

cyrax wrote:

The best thing to do would be to pull a Saturn and release on the day of the announcement, or the week after. In either case, they've likely waited to long given other releasing games of similar interest.

My thought (hope) exactly. An announcement such as "It's out, go get it!" would be perfect.

D-Man777 wrote:
cyrax wrote:

The best thing to do would be to pull a Saturn and release on the day of the announcement, or the week after. In either case, they've likely waited to long given other releasing games of similar interest.

My thought (hope) exactly. An announcement such as "It's out, go get it!" would be perfect.

Yes, this.

The best part would be that we wouldn't have all those poor idiots who got stuck going to PAX eating up all of Steam's bandwidth. What chumps!

They are sure in a bind. BL2 in a couple weeks and POE reigning as current king going into free open beta this fall/winter. Either way, they may have missed the boat...

What boat are they missing?

No really, they've probably sold a ton of preloads and I don't see BL2 competing, and POE seems different enough. I think they said for TL1 they sold an absolute ton through steam sales and retail. I love to try (and fail) to predict the future as much as anyone, but I'm not seeing Runic getting (flag)shipwrecked any time soon.

From what they've said about "polishing," could they be done with that in time for a surprise release?

LobsterMobster wrote:

From what they've said about "polishing," could they be done with that in time for a surprise release?

It depends. From what they've been saying, since beta they've been making some major changes, to skill points and lots of encounters.

I've come around to thinking that 'polishing' is just a word people use now to mean "we're still working on it after someone expected we'd be finished, but the money hasn't run out yet". It's a vague catch-all word that means f-all by itself unless you're talking about a surface finish. I used to associate it with lots of tiny little touches, like the way a UI feels tactilely 'comfortable', or animation bits and pieces that aren't core to the game but contribute to the good overall feel, but the TL2 beta (and TL1) already had that sorted.

Think of the quality of that mahogany case the game will come in though...

Honestly I think TL2 will do fine no matter when it releases. It'll have plenty of legs as an affordable downloadable title.

Scratched wrote:

What boat are they missing?

No really, they've probably sold a ton of preloads and I don't see BL2 competing, and POE seems different enough. I think they said for TL1 they sold an absolute ton through steam sales and retail. I love to try (and fail) to predict the future as much as anyone, but I'm not seeing Runic getting (flag)shipwrecked any time soon.

While that was true for TL1, I think TL2 as a different beast. TL1 saw a small team do a 12 month development (allegedly) sell essentially an indie title for 20 bucks with little to no marketing. TL2 has been almost 3 years in the making, the team has definitely grown and it still will only cost 20 bucks with little to no marketing. I've said it before, but TL2 is a AAA game with a indie budget. They can not afford hiccups that a real AAA title can shrug off (ME3 review trolling, RAGE being unplayable on release, sexual assault of Lara Croft etc.). First week/month sales will count. Metacritic score will count. Reviews of small and large gaming outlets alike in a year packed with kill-loot-repeat-games will count.

I want to see Runic be successful and drop the MMO idea as much as the next guy, but I can't help but feel that we've good a minor case of 38 Studios on our hands here. Because let's face it, Blizzard with their everlasting quest of "when it's done" and "polishing to perfection" got lucky. Without the gold fountain that WOW is, Diablo 3 and potentially Starcraft 2 would have gone the way of the Duke... erm... dodo.

Awesome, two days after Borderlands 2! Wait a minute.

IMAGE(http://s17.postimage.org/ii4edx931/facepalm.jpg)

Wow, that really blows. As much as I loved TL1, I really resent the false impression they gave of the release of this game. I know in the grand scope of things it's a really trivial thing to get worked up about, but I feel misled. If I hadn't pre-ordered TL2 FOUR MONTHS AGO (nearly five at release time), I'd probably be putting it off until after the holiday season. Instead of filling the nice gap in releases as they alluded, it's releasing two days after BL2, one of the few games I'm excited about more than Torchlight.

I guess I should just look at it as an embarrassment of riches, or first-world problem or whatever the appropriate cliche is.

Wait, it's coming out in less than a month and people are complaining?

BlackSabre wrote:

Wait, it's coming out in less than a month and people are complaining?

It's more the wait and vague information up until now that people are complaining about.
I preordered the game something like 5 months ago expecting it to be out in about a month.
The wait has killed pretty much all excitement I had for the game.

Basically they built a lot of hype for the game and then went silent for like 3 months, then talked about polishing for the past 2. It's less "these guys are jerks for taking so long to release the game" and more "they took so long to release the game that I'm not really that excited for it anymore".

Maybe I'm just fickle.

Nah, you're just right.

In hindsight they'll see that the "Summer 2012" announcement may have hurt them more then helped. Then again it got them thousands of $ in pre-order money, so maybe they had to take that route to stay afloat. I agree that releasing 2 days after BL2 and just 4 weeks after GW2 is just bad business sense.

Why would anyone pre-order the game with no discount and no release date? Don't believe the pre-release hype schedule for games (in general) and you won't have your expectations crushed. I think most of this will die down after the game comes out anyway--people just don't have anything else to talk about regarding the game right now.

juv3nal wrote:

So Sept 20 looks like
http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/...

I was thiiiissss close too! I'm with MeatMan on this one though. I've got a pre-order on it but I think this is sidelined until I'm done with BL2.

carrotpanic wrote:

Why would anyone pre-order the game with no discount and no release date? Don't believe the pre-release hype schedule for games (in general) and you won't have your expectations crushed. I think most of this will die down after the game comes out anyway--people just don't have anything else to talk about regarding the game right now.

That's something about pre-orders I've come to think too, it's very much a 'buyer beware' situation, and that's before you get to how you're paying up front for a product of unknown quality.

So often now it seems that a pre-order just isn't worth it. Digital products aren't really in short supply, and I find most of the pre-order exclusives hardly worth considering. You sometimes get a measly 10% discount, occasionally a better discount by shopping around 3rd parties (GMG, etc), depending on the publisher you'll sometimes see a significant discount soon-ish after release for the patient. The laughable thing is that often the base price of games will be inflated and then the store will apply a discount to it to bring it down to a reasonable/normal level while allowing them to put the 'on sale' label on it, 2K are awful for this.

Luggage wrote:

I agree that releasing 2 days after BL2 and just 4 weeks after GW2 is just bad business sense.

Pssh, six days after FTL is what they'll really regret.

Luggage wrote:

I agree that releasing 2 days after BL2 and just 4 weeks after GW2 is just bad business sense.

I don't see any relation between TL2 and GW2... That would be like the people at Cartier being upset about a welfare check delay... that's not their clientele...

I normally agree with not pre-ordering, but I was so upset after how crappy D3 actually was...

carrotpanic wrote:

Why would anyone pre-order the game with no discount and no release date? Don't believe the pre-release hype schedule for games (in general) and you won't have your expectations crushed. I think most of this will die down after the game comes out anyway--people just don't have anything else to talk about regarding the game right now.

Because I did get a discount as I went in on a 4 pack. I think it was $15? It was so long ago I don't even remember now.

Yonder wrote:
Luggage wrote:

I agree that releasing 2 days after BL2 and just 4 weeks after GW2 is just bad business sense.

Pssh, six days after FTL is what they'll really regret.

Crap, I forgot about that. I need to find a new hobby. Being a gamer is just too stressful.

Yeah the pre-order $15 deal was good enough to pre-order. If it is even remotely as fun as the first game it's well worth my money.

DeThroned wrote:
carrotpanic wrote:

Why would anyone pre-order the game with no discount and no release date? Don't believe the pre-release hype schedule for games (in general) and you won't have your expectations crushed. I think most of this will die down after the game comes out anyway--people just don't have anything else to talk about regarding the game right now.

Because I did get a discount as I went in on a 4 pack. I think it was $15? It was so long ago I don't even remember now.

But presumably you could have bought that 4 pack at release and it would be the same price, meanwhile that money has been in your bank for a few months extra.