Feminism/Sexism and Gaming/Geek/Popular culture Catch All

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Yes. This is precisely why most of my intent for my content in this topic is centered around action.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Can you suggest a method by which posting on a tiny corner of the internet is going to alter what happens on 4chan?

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

And you're right, but nobody is saying that. Right now there doesn't seem to be any kind of organised attack on any cultural commentators or anything of the sort, I actually think it serves the topic and the events better to keep the thread bubbling with discussion about related issues.

I've already called out a troll on Facebook, but right now that's all I can do.

As a side note I would never have predicted that 4chan would turn me into a feminist at the age of 32.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Yep, and I'm guilty of that too.

Where to go with that particular problem? I post here mostly for interest but partly to lend my perspective, and I try to engage in real life when the opportunity presents itself, but there's always something in the blind spots.

I've been PMing with Larry, trying to come to some sort of detente. He has pointed out that he feels my using his posts as an example of misogyny is beyond the pale.

I concede that point in whole, and am making a public apology for that.

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

We could discuss the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos on their own merits in the threads that are related to the topics. As I said, give her the dignity of weighing her ideas in the same scale as we use for others.

Here, how about a discussion of the various tactics that are used to marginalize people and perhaps practical discussion on how to avoid it? Many times, people aren't even aware they're doing it. It's so pervasive it can take very careful phrasing to avoid it.

Maybe something about how we can find some sort of common vernacular to discuss these issues?

Or maybe this issue has been addressed to the extent it can be until she actually ships a video or something else happens? I can't make that call for everyone.

momgamer wrote:

We could discuss the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos on their own merits in the threads that are related to the topics. As I said, give her the dignity of weighing her ideas in the same scale as we use for others.

Here, how about a discussion of the various tactics that are used to marginalize people and perhaps practical discussion on how to avoid it? Many times, people aren't even aware they're doing it. It's so pervasive it can take very careful phrasing to avoid it.

You know, I really dislike when threads devolve into "let's discuss how we discuss discussions, discuss!" (/coffeetalk), but I wanted to make a note here. The thread is about these videos and the reaction to them in general. To me, the first two sentences seem more - if not equally - relevant to that. In both cases, we're taking a conflux of topics (videos and the reaction to them) and splitting out one half or the other.

And really, I don't like the implication that talking about these videos in this thread is somehow disparaging or not in line with treating them with "dignity". I think it's perfectly dignified to take those videos seriously and respond to them in an intelligent way, which is what several people were doing. Are we asking what can be done to combat the sort of terrible behavior that was perpetrated? Then the answer is this - give people a worthwhile dialogue to focus on and engage in. Trying to stifle that seems counterproductive.

Tanglebones wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

Sure, that's really shocking. Every one of those PR idiots needs to be hit with a stick, preferably one greater than the diameter of a thumb. My youngest sister used to play, and kick ass, on COD4 hardcore servers so it seems mind-numbing to me that the people punting their games to the press would know it's the 21st century and girls can do pretty much anything they like.

momgamer wrote:

We could discuss the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos on their own merits in the threads that are related to the topics. As I said, give her the dignity of weighing her ideas in the same scale as we use for others.

Or maybe this issue has been addressed to the extent it can be until she actually ships a video or something else happens? I can't make that call for everyone.

I'll put those two together because I think they're related. The discussion of Ms Sarkeesian's videos here seems pretty dignified and respectful, as far as I can tell, and I don't think there's the need to fracture off multiple points of discussion across multiple threads. As Seth said, P&C threads do move organically, this one is not exception.

Ultimately, it does seem like there's not much to discuss regarding the harassment until it inevitably erupts again when she starts to release the videos 4chan is so scared of. And as I said, until that happens I don't see the harm in chatting about her work until then.

momgamer wrote:

Here, how about a discussion of the various tactics that are used to marginalize people and perhaps practical discussion on how to avoid it? Many times, people aren't even aware they're doing it. It's so pervasive it can take very careful phrasing to avoid it.

Maybe something about how we can find some sort of common vernacular to discuss these issues?

Sure, sounds good. Again, I don't see the need to separate all discussion into different threads unless discussion gets confusing.

Funkenpants wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Can you suggest a method by which posting on a tiny corner of the internet is going to alter what happens on 4chan?

Well, not to necessarily call you out, Funk, but in the part of my original post you didn't quote, I conceded I didn't have a solution, but encouraged those looking for things to talk about to talk about that. Luckily, it seems with momgamer's prompting, we're headed that way.

This is a pretty massive issue, honestly. There this case, there's Dickwolves, there's Jennifer Helper, but there's also Ocean Marketing--the dude was a dick, but did he deserve having the sludge unleashed on him? It seems there are enough facets that there's plenty, directly related to this issue, to talk about.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I'll say again: Isn't our tendency to cluck, then shrug our shoulders and say "Whelp, done with that! 4chan, whaddyagunnado?" an aspect of the problem?

Yes. Someone somewhere could make a lot of money trying to figure out how to "humanize" Internet communication while maintaining the value of the Internet. Until then I think all you can do is learn to walk away (something I'm sh*tty at) and learn to unplug as the real world is where most discussion is and should take place.

That's my answer. More unplugging, honestly.

DSGamer wrote:

That's my answer. More unplugging, honestly.

It's a pretty good one. But the internet has become a pretty integral tool in our day to day lives, and, well, I'll be honest, I'm a stubborn, prideful asshole, and unplugging feels like more surrender, and that rubs me wrong.

Sarkeesian's case came with a handy counter-attack--she had her Kickstarter, and people could donate. But what about those cases like Helper, where there isn't a clear outlet?

Bloo Driver wrote:
momgamer wrote:

We could discuss the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos on their own merits in the threads that are related to the topics. As I said, give her the dignity of weighing her ideas in the same scale as we use for others.

Here, how about a discussion of the various tactics that are used to marginalize people and perhaps practical discussion on how to avoid it? Many times, people aren't even aware they're doing it. It's so pervasive it can take very careful phrasing to avoid it.

You know, I really dislike when threads devolve into "let's discuss how we discuss discussions, discuss!" (/coffeetalk), but I wanted to make a note here. The thread is about these videos and the reaction to them in general. To me, the first two sentences seem more - if not equally - relevant to that. In both cases, we're taking a conflux of topics (videos and the reaction to them) and splitting out one half or the other.

And really, I don't like the implication that talking about these videos in this thread is somehow disparaging or not in line with treating them with "dignity". I think it's perfectly dignified to take those videos seriously and respond to them in an intelligent way, which is what several people were doing. Are we asking what can be done to combat the sort of terrible behavior that was perpetrated? Then the answer is this - give people a worthwhile dialogue to focus on and engage in. Trying to stifle that seems counterproductive.

I disagree, and I think this is the particular case to show that. As momgamer suggested, this is a particularly sensitive topic because many of the people contributing to the harassment DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING IT. That's why the simple "we all agree it's bad, now let's move on to why the videos upset people" doesn't cut it here. We've demonstrated twice, with two heated arguments already that we DON'T all agree on these issues. The first discussion was whether she was being selfish to take the money, the second was whether her videos are an accurate representation of our gender based culture.

What I'm seeing some people saying, and what seems to be falling on deaf ears, is that those are all discussions focused on the VICTIM. Clearly we expect P&C threads to evolve, it's just that in this particular case, it's evolved in the direction that is concerning. In a vacuum I would totally agree that discussions about her videos would be a great subject. The problem is that talking about her videos in a thread that started to discuss her harassment is very indicative of the thought process people go through who are unconsciously minimizing the problem.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

That's my answer. More unplugging, honestly.

It's a pretty good one. But the internet has become a pretty integral tool in our day to day lives, and, well, I'll be honest, I'm a stubborn, prideful asshole, and unplugging feels like more surrender, and that rubs me wrong.

Sarkeesian's case came with a handy counter-attack--she had her Kickstarter, and people could donate. But what about those cases like Helper, where there isn't a clear outlet?

When I'm feeling good and really taking care of myself I find that I'm reading books. I'm taking naps in the park. I'm playing board games with friends. I'm getting on my computer, turning off WiFi and writing, journaling. I'm getting out on my bike. I'm meditating.

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

Jolly B wrote:

I disagree, and I think this is the particular case to show that. As momgamer suggested, this is a particularly sensitive topic because many of the people contributing to the harassment DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING IT. That's why the simple "we all agree it's bad, now let's move on to why the videos upset people" doesn't cut it here. We've demonstrated twice, with two heated arguments already that we DON'T all agree on these issues. The first discussion was whether she was being selfish to take the money, the second was whether her videos are an accurate representation of our gender based culture.

And one line of related discussion doesn't preclude the other.

What I'm seeing some people saying, and what seems to be falling on deaf ears, is that those are all discussions focused on the VICTIM. Clearly we expect P&C threads to evolve, it's just that in this particular case, it's evolved in the direction that is concerning. In a vacuum I would totally agree that discussions about her videos would be a great subject. The problem is that talking about her videos in a thread that started to discuss her harassment is very indicative of the thought process people go through who are unconsciously minimizing the problem.

You know, it's bad to talk about the victim when blaming the victim, but you seem to be supposing we can't talk about the victim. At all! Which is weird to me.

Also, speaking of deaf ears - I still maintain that attempting to cut off reasonable discussion about the videos is actually antithetical to attempting to "do something". It's well and good that you're making the association for me that since I'm discussing the videos, I must be trying to dismiss and minimize the problem, but that's just not the case, sorry. This is my personal solution to issues of marginalization and "othering" as a weapon - disarm them by creating legitimate discussion for people to participate in.

DSGamer wrote:

When I'm feeling good and really taking care of myself I find that I'm reading books. I'm taking naps in the park. I'm playing board games with friends. I'm getting on my computer, turning off WiFi and writing, journaling. I'm getting out on my bike. I'm meditating.

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

I don't mean an outlet in a personal mental health sense, though. I mean, and maybe this is my Rorschach showing, next time there's this injustice (which this clearly is), and there isn't an obvious means of showing you don't support it, what's to be done? The internet's part of our society, so how do we socialize it?

DSGamer wrote:

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

I agree. But I have a desk job in a work environment that is as quiet as a monastery. Every time I unplug I always end up plugging back in eventually to get a break from the monotony.

After spending so many years on the internet, one of the things I discovered is that you can find someone to disagree about literally anything. Sometimes it's good to take a break.

Actually, Bloo, you caught the gist of what I had just deleted three times. Good thing I hit refresh.

tl;dr: +1.

Jolly Bill wrote:

I disagree, and I think this is the particular case to show that. As momgamer suggested, this is a particularly sensitive topic because many of the people contributing to the harassment DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING IT. That's why the simple "we all agree it's bad, now let's move on to why the videos upset people" doesn't cut it here. We've demonstrated twice, with two heated arguments already that we DON'T all agree on these issues. The first discussion was whether she was being selfish to take the money, the second was whether her videos are an accurate representation of our gender based culture.

Well, the first of those arguments was with a troll, the second was about something that seemed relevant and of interest.

And I haven't seen anyone say anything even approximately like, 'we all agree it's bad, now let's move on to why the videos upset people.' We've been discussing how Lego does reflect the sexism in society according to Ms Sarkeesian's videos. No one has even discussed whether she's right or wrong, agreement is pretty universal, just whether she's exaggerated a bit for effect.

Jolly Bill wrote:

What I'm seeing some people saying, and what seems to be falling on deaf ears, is that those are all discussions focused on the VICTIM. Clearly we expect P&C threads to evolve, it's just that in this particular case, it's evolved in the direction that is concerning. In a vacuum I would totally agree that discussions about her videos would be a great subject. The problem is that talking about her videos in a thread that started to discuss her harassment is very indicative of the thought process people go through who are unconsciously minimizing the problem.

So can someone with something more meaningful to say, possibly, say it? It's easy to say that the thread's gone in a concerning direction, yet there hasn't been a meaningful attempt to take it in another direction. Just a further derailing.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

When I'm feeling good and really taking care of myself I find that I'm reading books. I'm taking naps in the park. I'm playing board games with friends. I'm getting on my computer, turning off WiFi and writing, journaling. I'm getting out on my bike. I'm meditating.

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

I don't mean an outlet in a personal mental health sense, though. I mean, and maybe this is my Rorschach showing, next time there's this injustice (which this clearly is), and there isn't an obvious means of showing you don't support it, what's to be done? The internet's part of our society, so how do we socialize it?

Ultimately, and I think this is why we bothered to engage the troll earlier is exactly that. To engage.

It's very easy to say 'oh, internet, you so crazy' and walk away, especially when arguing with a troll is futile. You're not going to change the mind of someone who argues without conviction and shifts their terms and says 'lol umad?' when challenged.

But if a YouTube channel is troll bombed, we need to bomb it back, if a story on Kotaku like the one Tangle linked goes up, we need to comment. Not to change the minds of the trolls, but to show people on the outside that not all gamers and nerds are hateful, basement dwelling douches. If a few speak up, more will speak up and hopefully there will be a reversion to mean over time.

Sorry to triple post, but I'll quote myself.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

Sure, that's really shocking. Every one of those PR idiots needs to be hit with a stick, preferably one greater than the diameter of a thumb. My youngest sister used to play, and kick ass, on COD4 hardcore servers so it seems mind-numbing to me that the people punting their games to the press would know it's the 21st century and girls can do pretty much anything they like.

Here's an attempt to move the discussion in a more 'worthy' direction, but it seems to have been overlooked,

DSGamer wrote:

Someone somewhere could make a lot of money trying to figure out how to "humanize" Internet communication while maintaining the value of the Internet.

I'm halfway there. I'd settle for just half of a lot of money.

This was a good use of my employers' time.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Sorry to triple post, but I'll quote myself.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

Sure, that's really shocking. Every one of those PR idiots needs to be hit with a stick, preferably one greater than the diameter of a thumb. My youngest sister used to play, and kick ass, on COD4 hardcore servers so it seems mind-numbing to me that the people punting their games to the press would know it's the 21st century and girls can do pretty much anything they like.

Here's an attempt to move the discussion in a more 'worthy' direction, but it seems to have been overlooked,

When I read the article, practically all comments where on the subject of... WASD versus ESDF. Not a single comment stating "Wow, these PR guys really sucked monkeyballs". Since no comments wished rape, cancer or cooties on the author that's actually progress!

MrDeVil909 wrote:

So can someone with something more meaningful to say, possibly, say it? It's easy to say that the thread's gone in a concerning direction, yet there hasn't been a meaningful attempt to take it in another direction. Just a further derailing.

I saw several attempts. People have been adding in posts about constructive ways to fight against harassment. You posted about it above. And then quoted someone else posting it. Those seem like meaningful attempts. That's what I'm talking about :). Just trying to get the focus back on that, but I jumped in after things got heated and didn't post anything constructive in that direction myself. Apologies.

Bloo Driver wrote:

Also, speaking of deaf ears - I still maintain that attempting to cut off reasonable discussion about the videos is actually antithetical to attempting to "do something".

Sorry, I definitely missed how discussing the videos (and how valid her points on LEGOs being gender biased or not) were helpful to the overall harassment discussion? In reading momgamers posts I couldn't help but agree that what was probably a reasonable discussion about the points Sarkeesian makes in her videos just happen to parallel the tactics used by those who DO want to marginalize the victims of harassment. By changing the conversation to the behavior that instigated the harassment itself. I trust that you personally weren't doing that, but it's a very old technique when it comes to victim blaming.

OF COURSE we should talk about the victim. But if we're going to talk about the victim it would help to keep it in context. Maybe I'm just weirded out by a discussion about her videos in the same thread about the harassment she received for her videos. The juxtaposition of those topics is pretty odd in this case. Like talking about one of the kids accusing Jerry Sandusky of child molestation, and whether or not they were a good soccer player or something. Sure, it's a reasonable discussion, but really weird in the context of a victim and hard not to associate the one topic with the other.

dejanzie wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Sorry to triple post, but I'll quote myself.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, it's an emotional topic, so things will get heated. I'm sure everyone understands.

So mom, serious question. Other than hang around discussing the meat of Ms Sarkeesian's videos, what should/could we being talking about right now?

../Looks up at link posted by me slightly earlier, reposts it:
I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

Sure, that's really shocking. Every one of those PR idiots needs to be hit with a stick, preferably one greater than the diameter of a thumb. My youngest sister used to play, and kick ass, on COD4 hardcore servers so it seems mind-numbing to me that the people punting their games to the press would know it's the 21st century and girls can do pretty much anything they like.

Here's an attempt to move the discussion in a more 'worthy' direction, but it seems to have been overlooked,

When I read the article, practically all comments where on the subject of... WASD versus ESDF. Not a single comment stating "Wow, these PR guys really sucked monkeyballs". Since no comments wished rape, cancer or cooties on the author that's actually progress!

Actually, you probably just read the 'featured comments' area, which only had WASD/ESDF stuff. The 'all comments' area had a lot more discussion.

I just scanned the comments, there were a lot of deleted comments, but a lot of the ones still there also express shock and surprise at the writer's treatment.

It seems there is a semi-decent cadre of gamers. I get the feeling that events in the last year or so are riling people up, in a good way.

Jolly Bill wrote:

OF COURSE we should talk about the victim. But if we're going to talk about the victim it would help to keep it in context. Maybe I'm just weirded out by a discussion about her videos in the same thread about the harassment she received for her videos. The juxtaposition of those topics is pretty odd in this case. Like talking about one of the kids accusing Jerry Sandusky of child molestation, and whether or not they were a good soccer player or something. Sure, it's a reasonable discussion, but really weird in the context of a victim and hard not to associate the one topic with the other.

So talking about a sexual abuse victim's personal life is the same as discussing the videos that are directly tied to the subject of ridicule and horrible harassment? I think that's a pretty weak comparison. You know, in the end, I don't see by what authority people are apparently getting to define what is OK and not okay to be talked about in this thread. As has been noted several times, this is still inside the usual discussion creep of most threads on this board, and attempting to say its different due to the subject falls flat when you look at the painful and sensitive topics they tackle.

I guess I'll go somewhere to contemplate the irony of calling for some double standard in this, of all threads.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

When I'm feeling good and really taking care of myself I find that I'm reading books. I'm taking naps in the park. I'm playing board games with friends. I'm getting on my computer, turning off WiFi and writing, journaling. I'm getting out on my bike. I'm meditating.

There are a lot of benefits to unplugging. The biggest one being that you get to keep your humanity when you put in perspective how much Internet matters. I'm not great at this, but when I try to be I find that I'm much happier.

I don't mean an outlet in a personal mental health sense, though. I mean, and maybe this is my Rorschach showing, next time there's this injustice (which this clearly is), and there isn't an obvious means of showing you don't support it, what's to be done? The internet's part of our society, so how do we socialize it?

I don't have the answer for that except to put more emphasis into meatspace and convince people that we're losing something by directing all communication through this filter. Participating in discussions that voice a "no" vote to the vile reactions of the Internet may help. In the end, though, I think convincing friends and loved ones to unplug and live in the world on a case by case basis is the only thing that will work long term. Otherwise we're headed straight towards a dystopia out of "Super Sad True Love Story".

Jolly Bill wrote:

Sorry, I definitely missed how discussing the videos (and how valid her points on LEGOs being gender biased or not) were helpful to the overall harassment discussion? In reading momgamers posts I couldn't help but agree that what was probably a reasonable discussion about the points Sarkeesian makes in her videos just happen to parallel the tactics used by those who DO want to marginalize the victims of harassment. By changing the conversation to the behavior that instigated the harassment itself. I trust that you personally weren't doing that, but it's a very old technique when it comes to victim blaming.

Whoa. In what way, specifically does treating a work of pop culture analysis with respect and candor mimic the tactics used by those attempting to marginalize the victim?

To the contrary, discussing the work gives it power. Indeed I could - and am - making the case that doing what Bloo and Larry and others were doing is more helpful than either wringing our hands helplessly about the incident *or* trying impotently to route the discussion in a direction it doesn't want to go.

OF COURSE we should talk about the victim. But if we're going to talk about the victim it would help to keep it in context. Maybe I'm just weirded out by a discussion about her videos in the same thread about the harassment she received for her videos. The juxtaposition of those topics is pretty odd in this case. Like talking about one of the kids accusing Jerry Sandusky of child molestation, and whether or not they were a good soccer player or something. Sure, it's a reasonable discussion, but really weird in the context of a victim and hard not to associate the one topic with the other.

This is just an awful analogy, Jolly Bill. Sandusky did not threaten to molest kids in order to get them to stop playing sports. He molested them.

When someone attempts to silence a person through threats of violence, the best thing to do is let her be heard and treat her comments with dignity and respect, which includes not coddling her ideas. In what possible multiverse is this a difficult concept?