[trailer] Avengers! My day is made

Avatar is remarkably easy to watch, for such a terrible, terrible movie.

I think what Marvel made was a movie based on a comic book. Some people are criticizing the story but it is pulled straight out of the comics and cartoons, all they did was change the villain. The Tesseract or Cosmic Cube has appeared in many different comics with many different abilities and many different villains have wanted it. Marvel took this known and ever changing story and made it into a successful movie. I say bravo to them for not trying to over complicate things.

NathanialG wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:
El-Taco-the-Rogue wrote:
NathanialG wrote:

I love the idea of Idris Elba for Black Panther.
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/05/who...

Hell, I'd be happy even if they cast him as the Wasp. Idris Elba rules.

Idris Elba already has a role in the Avengers continuum as Heimdall.

I know. I dont see that being a major conflict.

And Chris Evans used to play the Human Torch

why-loki-won-in-the-avengers

Andrew Black wrote:

Spoiler Alert! Avoid reading this post if you haven’t seen The Avengers.

No really, look away!

O.k., let’s talk about The Avengers, the highest grossing movie so far this year, and the movie on track to potentially unseat James Cameron’s Avatar as highest grossing movie of all time. Specifically, I want to talk about the writing and Loki, the film’s key villain. More specifically, I want to explain how Joss Whedon managed to write the perfect Xanatos Gambit.

For those who don’t know or didn’t click the link above, a Xanatos Gambit (named for the villain Xanatos from Disney’s Gargoyles cartoon) is a plan that literally cannot fail because win or lose, the villain wins. This is one of those “I wanted you to beat me all along” scenarios, where defeating the villain somehow means the hero still loses. This isn’t changing your plans to compensate or getting lucky, this is planning all along for every possible outcome to lead to what you want. And Loki in the Avengers does so perfectly.

First, let’s get some background on Loki, God of Mischief and Lies. Check out that title – he’s the god of lies. Now in both the Marvel cinematic and comic book universes, being a “god” doesn’t really make you the embodiment of whatever you’re the god of; the comic book universe DOES have those things (Death, Eternity, Aeon, etc.) and the cinematic universe may gain those things (based on the Thanos cameo), but generally Thor is not the embodiment of thunder, and Hercules isn’t the embodiment of strength, etc. It’s just what they’re really good at, because they are actually alien beings from another dimension. Loki, then, is not the embodiment of lies and mischief, but he’s really good at it.

Loki really has only one goal in life – take over Asgard. He wants to rule. He feels Thor, his half brother, is not fit to take over for Odin and he wants that power for himself. Loki does not care one wit about Midgard (aka Earth). He’ll put it in peril to distract Thor, but Loki is all about controlling Asgard. Re-read those last two sentences – Loki doesn’t care about Earth! So why, in The Avengers, is he trying to take over? That very question is asked by Tony Stark during the penthouse scene. Tony comes very close to puzzling it out, but Loki distracts him with his villainy goodness (badness?). Why does Loki was to rule Earth? And what Earth would be left to rule with the Chitauri tearing it all up? What throne is he looking for?

The answer, of course, is that Loki doesn’t want to rule Earth. He doesn’t care about it. He never did. He allowed himself to be captured, he allowed himself to be defeated (and yeah, Hulk smashed him good, but he didn’t have to stick around for the big fight). It was all part of his plan.

Let’s examine that plan: first, Loki appears and steals the tesseract. Why? Well, to set things in motion. He knew stealing the cube would cause Nick Fury to call in the Avengers. Remember the ending of Thor – he’s been spying on the whole operation for some time now. Then, Loki gets captured. He clearly could have escaped, but instead he let himself be taken. Cap and Tony mention this on the Quinjet just before Thor shows up, and Black Widow eventually gets from Loki what his plan is – to set off the Hulk on the helicarrier. Only Loki is the god of lies…you think he really got played by the Black Widow? Nope, he WANTED them to know what the plan was. Then when it happens, and the Hulk goes berserk, they blame it on Loki and it really brings the team together.

And that’s what Loki wanted.

See, Loki wanted them to defeat the Chitauri. He wanted to lose the battle in New York. Why? So he could be taken back to Asgard. That was his plan all along. He never cared about conquering Earth. He never cared about defeating the Avengers. He just wanted a ride back to his home, the place he DOES want to conquer. And he got it, first class accommodations right back to Asgard. You can even see the smirk at the end when he’s got the gag on. It’s in his eyes. He won, and the heroes all thought they did. What better than to beat your enemies and make them think they won?

Now you may ask why Loki would betray Thanos in such a way. I mean, Big Purple is no one to mess around with. But I think Thanos was the co-architect of this plan. Why? Because he wants Loki back in Asgard too. Just sending him back wouldn’t work – Loki has to be brought back by Thor so that Odin does not suspect he’s still working with Thanos. See, with Loki back in Asgard, and knowing that Odin feels incredibly guilty about Loki in general and usually lets him off with little more than a slap to the wrist, Thanos has the perfect operative within striking distance of the one thing in the whole universe he REALLY wants (well, more than Death).

What is it Thanos wants? Did you miss it when you saw Thor? It’s easy to miss, but…

That’s right…in Odin’t vault is none other than the Infinity Gauntlet. And now Loki is right there, and he broke into it before without much trouble. Loki losing to the Avengers was the best possible outcome for both Loki, who can now try to take over Asgard again, and Thanos, who now has potential access to the Infinity Gauntlet.

The bad guys won this round, and meanwhile the heroes are off eating Shwarma and thinking they won.

And all of this points to one thing – Joss Whedon is a f*cking genius. This is Machiavellian planning at its best, and the payoff clearly won’t come until at least Thor 2 or Avengers 2. It’s a perfect set up, and with luck we’ll eventually see that the “win” in the Avengers was actually a loss. Of course, that’s not to say the heroes didn’t really win anything. They did…because while the battle was nothing more than an elaborate smoke and mirrors to get Loki back to Asgard, the formation of the Avengers is actually the biggest win for the side of good you could hope for.

It’s all about the long game, and writers who understand and can use it.

Interesting write-up. I think I need to watch the Avengers again to be able to make a whole lot of comments on it.

My only thought process on that is... was Loki banished from Asgard? I thought he willingly left at the end of Thor, the whole dropping to his "death" thing.

Citizen86 wrote:

Interesting write-up. I think I need to watch the Avengers again to be able to make a whole lot of comments on it.

My only thought process on that is... was Loki banished from Asgard? I thought he willingly left at the end of Thor, the whole dropping to his "death" thing.

At the time I think Loki wanted out. Not so much suicide as it was escaping his captors. Also, he was not motivated to get back to Asgard, to acquire said Infinity gauntlet. But after meeting Thanos, he has a reason to come back.

Heretk wrote:
Citizen86 wrote:

Interesting write-up. I think I need to watch the Avengers again to be able to make a whole lot of comments on it.

My only thought process on that is... was Loki banished from Asgard? I thought he willingly left at the end of Thor, the whole dropping to his "death" thing.

At the time I think Loki wanted out. Not so much suicide as it was escaping his captors. Also, he was not motivated to get back to Asgard, to acquire said Infinity gauntlet. But after meeting Thanos, he has a reason to come back.

That could make sense. And no, I understood it wasn't a suicide attempt, that's why it was a "death".

I forget, but wasn't he trapped? Like he willingly let go, but fell into that dimension/zone place and couldn't escape on his own. I was thinking the whole time I was reading the above take on his role, and kept thinking to myself, "but Thor wanted to take him back to Asgard anyway-- why would he need to go through all of the crap on Earth to get to that point?" But then I half-remembered: if he was trapped in that dimension/whatever, then he would have had to make a deal with Thanos to escape, and would then have to follow through on his end of the bargain.

But even then-- if Thanos' goal was to get Loki near the Infinity Gauntlet, then why even go through all the Tesseract crap? Either way, Thor was trying to take Loki back to Asgard, so either way all Loki really needed to do was get out of his trap and get Thor's attention.

WipEout wrote:

But even then-- if Thanos' goal was to get Loki near the Infinity Gauntlet, then why even go through all the Tesseract crap? Either way, Thor was trying to take Loki back to Asgard, so either way all Loki really needed to do was get out of his trap and get Thor's attention.

I thought the whole point was that if he went too easily, Thor and Odin would be suspicious. Just as the Avengers were suspicious of Loki both times they captured him.

If he goes back as a prisoner, they won't suspect he wants to be there.

Good point Wipeout, maybe that was it. The portal thing was destroyed, but he fell in before it closed for good.

Guess I need to watch Thor again.

Demyx wrote:
WipEout wrote:

But even then-- if Thanos' goal was to get Loki near the Infinity Gauntlet, then why even go through all the Tesseract crap? Either way, Thor was trying to take Loki back to Asgard, so either way all Loki really needed to do was get out of his trap and get Thor's attention.

I thought the whole point was that if he went too easily, Thor and Odin would be suspicious. Just as the Avengers were suspicious of Loki both times they captured him.

If he goes back as a prisoner, they won't suspect he wants to be there.

Yeah, but wouldn't he have gone back a prisoner anyway, for the sh*t he tried to pull in Thor? Perhaps he needed to do something even worse to seal the deal...

WipEout wrote:

Yeah, but wouldn't he have gone back a prisoner anyway, for the sh*t he tried to pull in Thor? Perhaps he needed to do something even worse to seal the deal...

I didn't see Thor, so I'm not sure, but maybe he decided to do something worse just because he felt like it. Loki, y'know :p

Demyx wrote:
WipEout wrote:

Yeah, but wouldn't he have gone back a prisoner anyway, for the sh*t he tried to pull in Thor? Perhaps he needed to do something even worse to seal the deal...

I didn't see Thor, so I'm not sure, but maybe he decided to do something worse just because he felt like it. Loki, y'know :p

It does fit his character. Probably figured since he was going to go back a prisoner anyway, he might as well have some fun while getting caught.

So I rewatched the film tonight and I think there's a pretty big flaw in this theory: the scene where Thanos's second-in-command contacts Loki via the scepter.

The Other: Your ambition is little. Born of childish need. We look beyond the Earth to greater worlds the Tesseract will unveil.
Loki: You don't have the Tesseract yet. I don't threaten, but until I open the doors, until your force is mine to command, you are but words.
The Other: You will have your war, Asgardian. If you fail, if the Tesseract is kept from us, there will be no realm, no barren moon, no crevice where he can't find you. You think you know pain? He will make you long for something as sweet as pain.

This is a private conversation, so if Thanos and Loki are both in on some secret plan to steal the Infinity Gauntlet from Asgard then there's no reason for them to be saying these things. Now Thanos could be secretly manipulating Loki in order to gain the gauntlet, and Loki could be double-crossing Thanos in order to return to Asgard, but if they were working together on this then there's no reason to keep talking about the importance of the tesseract in a private conversation like that.

muttonchop wrote:

So I rewatched the film tonight and I think there's a pretty big flaw in this theory: the scene where Thanos's second-in-command contacts Loki via the scepter.

The Other: Your ambition is little. Born of childish need. We look beyond the Earth to greater worlds the Tesseract will unveil.
Loki: You don't have the Tesseract yet. I don't threaten, but until I open the doors, until your force is mine to command, you are but words.
The Other: You will have your war, Asgardian. If you fail, if the Tesseract is kept from us, there will be no realm, no barren moon, no crevice where he can't find you. You think you know pain? He will make you long for something as sweet as pain.

This is a private conversation, so if Thanos and Loki are both in on some secret plan to steal the Infinity Gauntlet from Asgard then there's no reason for them to be saying these things. Now Thanos could be secretly manipulating Loki in order to gain the gauntlet, and Loki could be double-crossing Thanos in order to return to Asgard, but if they were working together on this then there's no reason to keep talking about the importance of the tesseract in a private conversation like that.

Spoiler:

Unless The Other is out of the loop on the real plan. Thanos has an agenda far beyond the Chi'tari and he screws them in a rather brutal fashion to sacrifice them to his goddess of Death, too if I remember correctly.

That's certainly possible, but it seems like we're starting to fall down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole where any evidence against the conspiracy actually proves that it's bigger and more complicated. I think I prefer to accept the events of the film at face value until proven otherwise.

Couldn't Thanos just want the Tesseract AND the Infinity Gauntlet?

Both of which are now chilling in Asgard, where Loki also is.

muttonchop wrote:

That's certainly possible, but it seems like we're starting to fall down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole where any evidence against the conspiracy actually proves that it's bigger and more complicated. I think I prefer to accept the events of the film at face value until proven otherwise.

You are aware this is comic books, right.

It's not like we're wondering this; the story is already out there. The only speculation is how the movie writers want to interact with the story as it's already laid out. They can play it straight, or butcher it in the most brutal fashion like they did with the third X-men film. What they did to the Dark Phoenix Saga should be forbidden by the Geneva Conventions.

momgamer wrote:

third X-men film.

Wait, what? There was a third X-Men movie? That is so cool! (please don't break my illusion).

Atras wrote:
momgamer wrote:

third X-men film.

Wait, what? There was a third X-Men movie? That is so cool! (please don't break my illusion).

I'm the Juggernaut!

You forgot the last word there, Citizen.

Citizen86 wrote:
Atras wrote:
momgamer wrote:

third X-men film.

Wait, what? There was a third X-Men movie? That is so cool! (please don't break my illusion).

I'm the Juggernaut!

IMAGE(http://cdn6.fotosearch.com/bthumb/corbis/DGT231/CB055846.jpg)

What are you guys talking about? The only X-Men movie I know is First Class.

momgamer wrote:

You forgot the last word there, Citizen. ;)

I didn't want to traumatize him too much

Just saw this a second time yesterday on a whim, and it certainly holds up. The beginning is a bit rough for the most part, trying to get you invested immediately, but as soon as Thor shows up things just start getting good.

I also started noticing a few more details, such as Whedon liking to end scenes with a word that the next scene begins with.

I think they did a really good job of having Bruce Banner seem calmly angry the whole time. Almost every scene he's in, he sounds like he's just having a bad day. Not to the boiling point, though. Just "I wish this would f*cking get over with so I could just sit back on my couch and relax." Which still makes sense with what he said his secret is. It's very different than the sort of anger you'd feel if someone randomly approached you and said "Bruce Banner I slashed your tires".

But my brother and friend Luke didn't quite see it, so maybe I'm just projecting.

Also also: I like to spot the "Whedon Alumni" from project to project, and originally I thought the only one present in this film was Chris Hemsworth (who was in Cabin in the Woods in 2009, which saw theatrical release this year). However, when Captain America approaches the two cops in New York giving them the commands and stuff, the younger cop is Dude-Doll from Dollhouse.

I think a Whedon drinking game should be made.

The waitress who Captain America saves (Krissy from Growing Pains) is also a Dollhouse alum.

Really? I cannot remember who she played.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

The waitress who Captain America saves (Krissy from Growing Pains) is also a Dollhouse alum.

The thing that blew my mind was that the purple dude that Loki is reporting to was Wesley from Angel.

ccesarano wrote:

Really? I cannot remember who she played.

Yep. Wendy (who got imprinted with Caroline), in Omega, the season 1 TV finale. Pretty important episode. Some fun scenes with Tudyk and Dushku.

Its probably too early for their own dedicated threads but Marvel recently announced the titles to 2 upcoming movies, Captain America: The Winter Soldier for April 2014 and Thor: The Dark World.

While I'm excited about seeing what they do with Bucky/Winter Soldier (hope that's not a spoiler to anybody) I suppose it lowers my chances of seeing Cap team up with The Falcon. I just loved them as a duo.