Goodbye Kickstarter

Pages

http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/10...

OTOH, I'll probably still donate when I see a project I like, but still, what projects are no longer there?

The whole point of Kickstarter is democratization of funding, but clearly Kickstarter follows mob rule rather than this egalitarian vision we were promised.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me:

Kickstarter ToU[/url]]
Rules and Conduct

As a condition of use, you promise not to use the Service for any purpose that is prohibited by the Terms of Use or law. The Service is provided only for your own personal, non-commercial use (except as allowed by the terms set forth in the section of these Terms of Use titled, "Projects: Fundraising and Commerce"). You are responsible for all of your activity in connection with the Service. You shall not, and shall not permit any third party using your account to, take any action, or Submit Content, that:

- infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright, right of publicity, or other right of any other person or entity, or violates any law or contract;
- you know is false, misleading, or inaccurate;
- is unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, deceptive, fraudulent, tortious, obscene, offensive, profane, or invasive of another's privacy;
- constitutes unsolicited or unauthorized advertising or promotional material or any junk mail, spam, or chain letters;
- contains software viruses or any other computer codes, files, or programs that are designed or intended to disrupt, damage, limit, or interfere with the proper function of any software, hardware, or telecommunications equipment or to damage or obtain unauthorized access to any system, data, password, or other information of the Company or any third party; or
- impersonates any person or entity, including any employee or representative of the Company.

They have the right to decide what's obscene, offensive and profane on their own service, do you not think? What if this was funding terrorism (i'm just plucking out of the air here) or a "rights" group who wanted to fund protests at gay servicemen's funerals?

I am pretty comfortable with them cutting that.

NathanialG wrote:

I am pretty comfortable with them cutting that.

Seconded, and I applaud the reasoned response given by Sheffield in that piece.

I'll lend my baritone to the chorus. Good call.

RolandofGilead wrote:

The whole point of Kickstarter is democratization of funding, but clearly Kickstarter follows mob rule rather than this egalitarian vision we were promised.

I'm curious how their business model supposedly was completely exclusive from the concept of them being free not to be associated with things that might hurt their overall image. It's well and good to rabble rabble self-righteously about caving to the PC police or whatever, but I don't think anyone really had the expectation that Kickstarter would allow any, literally any, content on their site without certain limitations.

Paleocon wrote:

I'll lend my baritone to the chorus. Good call.

I'll be second baritone.

Couldn't agree more. The game is about RAPE, ffs.

So games about murder are ok and games about rape are not ok. Ok. Personally I don't think the game is about rape nor does it offend me. Carmagadon is far more offense than this game. However, they are in their right to pull the game. They are a private site they don't have to be fair.

The saddest part about this for me is that before it was taken down, the game blew past its Kickstarter goal and since the maker has taken the funding drive to his own site, he's almost matched that amount, with many doubling their pledges and cutting off funding to other Kickstarter projects.

KrazyTacoFO wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I'll lend my baritone to the chorus. Good call.

I'll be second baritone.

I believe I can add a fine, piercing tenor. Kind of like Geddy Lee.

Baron Of Hell wrote:

However, they are in their right to pull the game. They are a private site they don't have to be fair.

Pretty much this. It's their playground and they can do what they want. When words like "democratization" and "egalitarian" are being used, I think we are confusing governments and civil liberties with a business that needs to make money and maintain a positive corporate image.

The same thing happened on Reddit - it's all about group voting and the power of the masses to make their own communities, right? What if one of those communities is about kiddie porn? The company that owns Reddit (and owns Ars Technica as well), decided that is not the case, and good for them. Reddit and Kickstarter are not the Wild West, they are not bastions of free speech, they are businesses.

Having said that, while I agree that there is a double standard in gaming (that is, murder has a free pass while other crimes against humanity don't), a double standard doesn't mean that everything gets a free pass, it means we need to examine what we're doing a little more closely. War and fighting are parts of life, murder fetishism is not. (Do we really need x-ray vision to see bullets crunching bones and exploding brains?) I know that I'm drawing a line in the sand of what's acceptable in a game and what's not, but every single one of us does it whether we're vocal about it or claim to be objective.

Michael wrote:

Having said that, while I agree that there is a double standard in gaming (that is, murder has a free pass while other crimes against humanity don't), a double standard doesn't mean that everything gets a free pass, it means we need to examine what we're doing a little more closely. War and fighting are parts of life, murder fetishism is not. (Do we really need x-ray vision to see bullets crunching bones and exploding brains?) I know that I'm drawing a line in the sand of what's acceptable in a game and what's not, but every single one of us does it whether we're vocal about it or claim to be objective.

I think it's more difficult than that. Most games are about attacking an established enemy or defending yourself from one (or an unknown enemy). There aren't many where you go about murdering people (drawing a distinction between murder and killing in war and in self defence). Rape and sexual assault in general are never (or not to my knowledge) historically justified through actions or counter actions. It's not just what's acceptable in a game, it's what's acceptable in western society (and in some Eastern societies too) - games reflect those who make them, not the other way around.

Man, Americans are so sexually repressed - what's wrong with fantasies about aliens raping underage girls? /sarcasm

In all seriousness, it's not surprising at all that any game about underage sexploitation would become a political hot potato in America. Remember, we're the land of To Catch A Predator and pedophiles hiding under every rock. This game taps into a very deep and to a certain level irrational fear in American culture.

That being said, when I visited Tokyo on business I learned that the obsession with teenage girls goes far beyond simple fantasy. At any subway newstand, it's pretty easy to find graphic ads featuring high school girls looking to be adopted by older sugar daddies. I asked my Japanese friends about this, thinking that surely this was some fantasy being acted out by young adult women. I was told that no, it wasn't unheard of for older men and high schoolers to enter into such arrangements. While technically illegal, the police turned a blind eye as long a girl wasn't being forced or otherwise abused. As much as I detest a lot of American prudishness, the practice of "enjo Kosai" seriously creeped me out. I completely understand why most Americans would reject this aspect of Japanese culture, and why Kickstarter would kick the game off their site.

Kids are physically wired, in their brains, to do what adults tell them to do. It is very difficult for even a teenager to defy an adult for very long. Taking advantage of that circuitry for sexual use is appalling.

But if they're actually taking out ads in newspapers? That's something entirely different. I don't know what that is, but unless the parents are somehow forcing them to do this, I don't think it can be characterized as abuse.

As foul as this content is, I've never been in favor of censoring or restricting content merely because it's repulsive, so long as no one's actually getting hurt. I don't think this game would lead to any increase in actual tentacle rapes.

Even though I disagree with their decision, I don't question Kickstarter's right to remove the game.

Baron Of Hell wrote:

So games about murder are ok and games about rape are not ok. Ok. Personally I don't think the game is about rape nor does it offend me. Carmagadon is far more offense than this game. However, they are in their right to pull the game. They are a private site they don't have to be fair.

The article kind of covers that:

Brandon Sheffield[/url]]
Tentacle Bento's Kickstarter success is the product of a society that doesn't take sexual assault against women seriously enough. It shows that enough people think it's "not a big deal". The argument comparing a game about rape to games about violence is limited by the fact that murder is almost universally penalized in our culture, meaning there is a clear line between fantasy and reality there. With rape and molestation, that line is not so clearly drawn, and it results in "cute" games like Tentacle Bento.

WipEout wrote:
Baron Of Hell wrote:

So games about murder are ok and games about rape are not ok. Ok. Personally I don't think the game is about rape nor does it offend me. Carmagadon is far more offense than this game. However, they are in their right to pull the game. They are a private site they don't have to be fair.

The article kind of covers that:

Brandon Sheffield[/url]]
Tentacle Bento's Kickstarter success is the product of a society that doesn't take sexual assault against women seriously enough. It shows that enough people think it's "not a big deal". The argument comparing a game about rape to games about violence is limited by the fact that murder is almost universally penalized in our culture, meaning there is a clear line between fantasy and reality there. With rape and molestation, that line is not so clearly drawn, and it results in "cute" games like Tentacle Bento.

a more apt comparison might be if a company made a cute game about torturing dogs before eating them. While many Westerners might consider that abhorrent, many in China and Korea believe viciously torturing a dog enhances the flavor of the meat by increasing the levels of adrenaline at the time of death.

I would also support kickstarter's choice to remove "Super Happy Pooch Flayer" from their system.

Counterpoint.

I find it troubling that Sheffield would so readily make a link between something that doesn’t actually exist and something that does actually exist, between a harmless weird fantasy and the terrible criminal violation of women. Whether the operative verb is encourage, endorse, or trivialize, Sheffield is making a dangerous argument that will lead him to places he doesn’t want to go. Burnout trivializes road rage. Call of Duty trivializes war. Saints Row trivializes murder. Pandemic trivializes the extinction of humanity. All of these statements are technically correct, but the proper response should be, “So?” Adults are capable of seeing things trivialized without internalizing that, without losing our perspective on their enormity, without then doing these things, without losing our capacity to oppose them.

I know that I'm a creepy, evil, conservative catholic and we are kind of hated around here but I am glad that Kickstarter booted this project. It's creepy. People who want to play a rape card game are weird. I don't understand the appeal of japanese rape fantasy pornographic cartoons and I am more inclined to support Kickstarter for having a floor and not letting stuff above this floor. I think there is a difference between MURDER SIMULATOR WAR OF CONFLICT MODERN DUTY and a game about rape. Also, the system worked because Kickstarter kicked the creepy game out of their playground and the publishers were able to get the money themselves on their own website. It's their playground follow their rules.

Podunk wrote:

Counterpoint.

I find it troubling that Sheffield would so readily make a link between something that doesn’t actually exist and something that does actually exist, between a harmless weird fantasy and the terrible criminal violation of women. Whether the operative verb is encourage, endorse, or trivialize, Sheffield is making a dangerous argument that will lead him to places he doesn’t want to go. Burnout trivializes road rage. Call of Duty trivializes war. Saints Row trivializes murder. Pandemic trivializes the extinction of humanity. All of these statements are technically correct, but the proper response should be, “So?” Adults are capable of seeing things trivialized without internalizing that, without losing our perspective on their enormity, without then doing these things, without losing our capacity to oppose them.

That "counterpoint" completely missed the actual point, though -

The argument comparing a game about rape to games about violence is limited by the fact that murder is almost universally penalized in our culture, meaning there is a clear line between fantasy and reality there. With rape and molestation, that line is not so clearly drawn, and it results in "cute" games like Tentacle Bento.

That Quarter To Three article seems to have just seen the association between games and behavior and jumped right to, "oh ho! Look, he is saying that video games influence behavior! Time to bring out the pre-fabricated line about how that's wrongheaded!" I agree with Sheffield - the defining factor here is that American games about murder and crime portray things that are punished in this society. You will, of course, find people who will cheer on the guy who runs someone else over for cutting them off, but that person will go to jail. Japanese culture (and several others) do not officially sanction pedophilia and rape, but it is certainly accepted and idolized.

Apples and handgrenades, really.

Bloo Driver wrote:

That Quarter To Three article seems to have just seen the association between games and behavior and jumped right to, "oh ho! Look, he is saying that video games influence behavior! Time to bring out the pre-fabricated line about how that's wrongheaded!" I agree with Sheffield - the defining factor here is that American games about murder and crime portray things that are punished in this society. You will, of course, find people who will cheer on the guy who runs someone else over for cutting them off, but that person will go to jail. Japanese culture (and several others) do not officially sanction pedophilia and rape, but it is certainly accepted and idolized.

Apples and handgrenades, really.

Did you read the article? Because it sounds like you didn't.

Tom's point is that tentacle rape is pure fantasy. It's a creepy, gross fetish, but it does not exist in the real world. It has less to do with real sexual assault than any number of video games have to do with real violence, because people killing other people happens in the real world. A woman being raped by a squid does not. Sheffield is making "a link between something that doesn’t actually exist and something that does actually exist, between a harmless weird fantasy and the terrible criminal violation of women."

If I recall, modern tentacle rape was invented to circumvent strict Japanese censorship rules regarding the depiction of a human penis. Tom Chick's straw man is pretty...appalling, imo.

I have to admit, I have no cultural context for it, and I don't get the feeling that Tom does either.

Podunk wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

That Quarter To Three article seems to have just seen the association between games and behavior and jumped right to, "oh ho! Look, he is saying that video games influence behavior! Time to bring out the pre-fabricated line about how that's wrongheaded!" I agree with Sheffield - the defining factor here is that American games about murder and crime portray things that are punished in this society. You will, of course, find people who will cheer on the guy who runs someone else over for cutting them off, but that person will go to jail. Japanese culture (and several others) do not officially sanction pedophilia and rape, but it is certainly accepted and idolized.

Apples and handgrenades, really.

Did you read the article? Because it sounds like you didn't.

Tom's point is that tentacle rape is pure fantasy. It's a creepy, gross fetish, but it does not exist in the real world. It has less to do with real sexual assault than any number of video games have to do with real violence, because people killing other people happens in the real world. A woman being raped by a squid does not. Sheffield is making "a link between something that doesn’t actually exist and something that does actually exist, between a harmless weird fantasy and the terrible criminal violation of women."

Tom's argument is... a stretch. Tentacle sex is a "harmless, weird fantasy" that is derived from the "terrible criminal violation of women." Rape is rape, and fantasy about it is still fantasizing rape. That's not to say that i'm fine with fantasies of murder and violence, and I think that the games industry in general needs to mature on a number of fronts, but the fact that one socially unacceptable behavioral fantasy is less taboo than others doesn't mean they all should get a free pass.

It's like laws against virtual child pornography, with drawn subjects. No real people are being hurt, you just don't think people should be able to get turned on by icky things that you don't like.

No real women were raped. These are cartoon characters. The thinking process behind moves to stop this sort of thing on a legal basis are almost exactly like the War on Women stuff -- these are sinful people, and they should be punished, even though they're not hurting anyone.

Kickstarter allowing this or not is up to Kickstarter, but waxing all moralistic about cartoon characters is something I find more than slightly ridiculous.

WipEout wrote:

Tom's argument is... a stretch. Tentacle sex is a "harmless, weird fantasy" that is derived from the "terrible criminal violation of women." Rape is rape, and fantasy about it is still fantasizing rape.

I'm not sure how reputable this is, but Wikipedia tells me that tentacle rape is actually a subgenre of tentacle erotica, in which the tentacle sex is consensual. And now I need to go scrub out my brain.

Edit: and apparently Japan's relationship with tentacle erotica goes back a few centuries, so while the modern version may be intended to circumvent Japanese obscenity laws, it's a concept with some deep roots in the culture.

WipEout wrote:

That's not to say that i'm fine with fantasies of murder and violence, and I think that the games industry in general needs to mature on a number of fronts, but the fact that one socially unacceptable behavioral fantasy is less taboo than others doesn't mean they all should get a free pass.

I'm with you on this.

Seth wrote:

If I recall, modern tentacle rape was invented to circumvent strict Japanese censorship rules regarding the depiction of a human penis. Tom Chick's straw man is pretty...appalling, imo.

That, and tentacle rape may not be real, but groping sure as heck is. It's so endemic that many countries have had to institute women-only trains to help combat it. Topping it off with the donation incentive of having your real girlfriend added to the game as a target, we're a couple exits past "fun".

I don't think they shouldn't be able to make the game; people make the SAW movies and others go and watch them and I can't deal with that either. But I see it as well within Kickstarter's rights to say this isn't happening on their system. I do wish they'd have seen it before it went this far, though.

momgamer wrote:

I do wish they'd have seen it before it went this far, though.

Definitely. If this had been a question of Kickstarter quietly removing a project that they felt violated their TOS, there would be no reason to have this discussion.

Podunk wrote:
momgamer wrote:

I do wish they'd have seen it before it went this far, though.

Definitely. If this had been a question of Kickstarter quietly removing a project that they felt violated their TOS, there would be no reason to have this discussion.

I know nothing about Kickstarter other than how to give money.

Does Kickstarter review every proposed project before allowing them to go live on their site?

lostlobster wrote:
Podunk wrote:
momgamer wrote:

I do wish they'd have seen it before it went this far, though.

Definitely. If this had been a question of Kickstarter quietly removing a project that they felt violated their TOS, there would be no reason to have this discussion.

I know nothing about Kickstarter other than how to give money.

Does Kickstarter review every proposed project before allowing them to go live on their site?

No. They really don't, a lot of is is on users to police the content.

That, and tentacle rape may not be real, but groping sure as heck is.

Um. I don't even know how to respond to that. Do you seriously think that tentacle rape cartoons lead to real-life groping?

From what I know of erotica, people who use lots of it are much LESS likely to commit sex crimes. I don't think any study has been done on groping, but the data we do have would suggest that a guy getting off on tentacle porn is less likely to be fondling the unwilling.

Pages