Why is George Zimmerman allowed to roam free tonight?

rosenhane wrote:

He wasn't looking for trouble that evening.

When I'm not looking for trouble, I tend to avoid doing things like carrying a gun and following strangers around at night.

Apparently the photos were taken the night of the shooting and the 27th while Zimmerman was still in custody.

rosenhane wrote:

While Zimmerman shot Martin, I don't quite think it makes him the killer.

All the photos the prosecution released were taken during the time frame the cops were "not investigating the case" or "not taking it seriously". My understanding is the detective in charge of the case wanted to go ahead with charges, but the DA at the time told them to release him as they didn't have a case (yet).

Oso,
You make it sound like Zimmerman left the house that day intent on "busting some bad guys", he was going to Target, not even on his NW patrol. He wasn't looking for trouble that evening.

I have a hard time taking these kinds of delusional rationalizations serious.

rosenhane wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

I have a hard time taking these kinds of delusional rationalizations serious.

just to be clear, I was going to just put a facepalm in there, but thought someone might not get how illogical the original statement was.

It was so much less nonsensical than your comment, it hardly warrants commentary.

He wasn't looking for trouble that evening.

Then why the f*ck didn't he stay in his car?

Come on, man. This is not a reasonable stance you are taking.

While Zimmerman shot Martin, I don't quite think it makes him the killer.

So now you're asserting that if you shoot someone, and they die from the wound(s) you inflicted, you're not the killer?

If that doesn't qualify, what else possibly could?

rosenhane wrote:

While Zimmerman shot Martin, I don't quite think it makes him the killer.

Then it's not worth continuing to humor you, because he did kill Martin, so you're very wrong on a fundamental level. Unless you're about to argue for the presence of a second shooter on the grassy knoll, in which case...man, I really hope that's about to happen!

By the way:

The levels of THC detected don’t reflect Martin’s character or even his state of mind the night he was shot. For one, they are so low as to almost certainly not be connected to recent intoxication: 1.5 nanograms of THC were found as well as 7.3 nanograms of THC-COOH, a metabolite of THC that can stay in the system for weeks after cannabis has been smoked. Immediately after inhaling, THC levels typically rise to 100 to 200 nanograms per milliter of blood, although there can be a great deal of variation.

In their defense, I think rosenhane was trying to mock the "Just because he smoked weed doesn't make him a criminal" argument, because, that is technically incorrect (the best kind of incorrect).

It's ignoring what's (very clearly) really being said and focusing on the semantics and now we're even more derailed.

The Orlando Sentinel takes a look at the Kel Tec PF9 involved in the shooting.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...

Edwin wrote:

The Orlando Sentinel takes a look at the Kel Tec PF9 involved in the shooting.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...

Wow, did they just doctor the press release? That's one hell of a puff piece.

ABC News had this story up about the witness statements that have been released:

A man identified only as witness 6 told investigators that he heard a commotion coming from the walk behind his residence. He witnessed a black male wearing a dark-colored "hoodie" on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help.

Police said the witness elaborated by saying the black man was mounted on Zimmerman and throwing punches "MMA" style, meaning mixed martial arts style. The witness stated that the man on the ground yelled out for help.

Witness 6 said he was going to call for police when he heard the "pop" of Zimmerman's gun.

One of the witnesses noted that he saw Zimmerman bleeding from the head and nose, so I don't think we'll end up with much about Zimmerman faking his own injuries.

Malor wrote:
He wasn't looking for trouble that evening.

Then why the f*ck didn't he stay in his car?

Dude, because "these guys always get away!" He wasn't looking for trouble, he was helping to rid his neighborhood of those black teenage thugs with their dangerous hoodies and candy!

But yes, seriously, if he wasn't looking for trouble he should have called the police, let them do their thing, and not paused to play a Cowboys & Indians LARP with live ammo.

and throwing punches "MMA" style,

That's a guy sexing up his testimony.

Funkenpants wrote:

ABC News had this story up about the witness statements that have been released:

A man identified only as witness 6 told investigators that he heard a commotion coming from the walk behind his residence. He witnessed a black male wearing a dark-colored "hoodie" on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help.

Police said the witness elaborated by saying the black man was mounted on Zimmerman and throwing punches "MMA" style, meaning mixed martial arts style. The witness stated that the man on the ground yelled out for help.

Witness 6 said he was going to call for police when he heard the "pop" of Zimmerman's gun.

One of the witnesses noted that he saw Zimmerman bleeding from the head and nose, so I don't think we'll end up with much about Zimmerman faking his own injuries.

The testimony between witnesses isn't consistent - Witness 6 does seem to be the most in line with Zimmerman's account of events. It seems likely that Zimmerman did at least suffer some injuries that night, but since Zimmerman refused a trip to the hospital, we still don't know whether the full set of injuries his doctor found the next day were from the struggle with Martin.

The fact that Martin's autopsy found his only injuries were a gunshot wound to the chest, and a single small abrasion on his ring finger still feels a little odd to me. I'd expect a kid giving the kind of beatdown that Zimmerman & Witness 6 describe to have more damage to his hands than that. I admit I'm not an expert on that, though - Paleocon or other folks who train striking arts with regularity, what kinds of hand injuries would you folks expect to see an untrained fighter have after beating the crap out of somebody?

PhoenixRev's question a couple pages back also feels like it may have an illuminating answer.

The fact that Martin's autopsy found his only injuries were a gunshot wound to the chest, and a single small abrasion on his ring finger still feels a little odd to me. I'd expect a kid giving the kind of beatdown that Zimmerman & Witness 6 describe to have more damage to his hands than that. I admit I'm not an expert on that, though - Paleocon or other folks who train striking arts with regularity, what kinds of hand injuries would you folks expect to see an untrained fighter have after beating the crap out of somebody?

PhoenixRev's question a couple pages back also feels like it may have an illuminating answer.

I would guess brawler's fracture or at least some bruised knuckles. Maybe wrist if he didn't know to drop his hand to align the force vectors.

How does someone manage to get off a gunshot that wounds the other guy's chest when he's getting an MMA style mounted beat down from the other guy?

CheezePavilion wrote:

How does someone manage to get off a gunshot that wounds the other guy's chest when he's getting an MMA style mounted beat down from the other guy?

I may be mistaken here, but it seems to me that the ballistics reports are going to make or break this case. If Martin was shot at close quarters, it at least lends credence to Z-man's claims of self defense. We'll never know who started the fight, although the more I think about it the more I realize it's crazy to assume Martin would just jump Z-man without provocation. If there's any considerable distance between the shooters, I think the defense will have a hard time explaining how Z-man got out of a MM style mount where his head was being bashed in, managed to draw his weapon and fire.

jdzappa wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

How does someone manage to get off a gunshot that wounds the other guy's chest when he's getting an MMA style mounted beat down from the other guy?

I may be mistaken here, but it seems to me that the ballistics reports are going to make or break this case. If Martin was shot at close quarters, it at least lends credence to Z-man's claims of self defense.

It came out this week with Martin's autopsy report. The wound was from "intermediate range," which means it wasn't a contact shot but there was gun powder stippling on Martin, so the gun went off a few inches to a few feet away.

OG_slinger wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

I may be mistaken here, but it seems to me that the ballistics reports are going to make or break this case. If Martin was shot at close quarters, it at least lends credence to Z-man's claims of self defense.

It came out this week with Martin's autopsy report. The wound was from "intermediate range," which means it wasn't a contact shot but there was gun powder stippling on Martin, so the gun went off a few inches to a few feet away.

There's a little bit of uncertainty about that. Florida Department of Law Enforcement firearms expert Amy Siewert examined Martin's gray hoodie and sweatshirt and decided it was most likely a contact shot (gun pressed against Martin's clothes).

I agree that Martin being shot at range would have been very difficult for Zimmerman's defense team to explain away, but the fact that close range is consistent with Zimmerman's account is not actually evidence in favor of it - there are any number of hypotheticals that could lead to a point-blank gunshot, including executing a child who is screaming for his life (I should probably clarify: I'm not saying that's necessarily what happened, but wanted to present an alternative to Zimmerman's explanation that's equally consistent with a point-blank shooting).

Dimmerswitch wrote:

It seems likely that Zimmerman did at least suffer some injuries that night, but since Zimmerman refused a trip to the hospital, we still don't know whether the full set of injuries his doctor found the next day were from the struggle with Martin.

It's possible that he faked his own injuries. Experts can review the data. It would require Zimmerman to hurt himself more than he was already hurt, but not so much that his injuries were inconsistent with the initial reports or photographs. Really seems like a stretch.

Funkenpants wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:

It seems likely that Zimmerman did at least suffer some injuries that night, but since Zimmerman refused a trip to the hospital, we still don't know whether the full set of injuries his doctor found the next day were from the struggle with Martin.

It's possible that he faked his own injuries. Experts can review the data. It would require Zimmerman to hurt himself more than he was already hurt, but not so much that his injuries were inconsistent with the initial reports or photographs. Really seems like a stretch.

Whatever the theory, my understanding is that once chain of custody is broken, no matter how compelling, the "evidence" of the day after medical report is inadmissible.

Paleocon wrote:
Funkenpants wrote:
Dimmerswitch wrote:

It seems likely that Zimmerman did at least suffer some injuries that night, but since Zimmerman refused a trip to the hospital, we still don't know whether the full set of injuries his doctor found the next day were from the struggle with Martin.

It's possible that he faked his own injuries. Experts can review the data. It would require Zimmerman to hurt himself more than he was already hurt, but not so much that his injuries were inconsistent with the initial reports or photographs. Really seems like a stretch.

Whatever the theory, my understanding is that once chain of custody is broken, no matter how compelling, the "evidence" of the day after medical report is inadmissible.

From the article Dimmer linked to:

The evidence includes a photocopy of a picture taken of George Zimmerman at the scene of the shooting. Sanford Officer Michael Wagner pulled out his personal iPhone, he wrote in his report, and shot a photo of Zimmerman's bloody nose. It appeared to him, Wagner wrote in his report, that Zimmerman's nose was broken. Wagner downloaded the photo to his computer but never forwarded it to anyone else, he wrote, not until March 18, when he got word that the agency could find no photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene.

Besides the total lack of professionalism and preparedness as shown by the investigating officer shooting photos on his personal phone, there's a 21-day gap in the chain of custody of one of the key pieces of evidence Zimmerman's going to need during the trial.

Is the suspect usually photographed at the scene? Every time I've seen someone arrested, they were just put into the squad in cuffs, no photo shoot before they drove off.

OG_slinger wrote:

Besides the total lack of professionalism and preparedness as shown by the investigating officer shooting photos on his personal phone, there's a 21-day gap in the chain of custody of one of the key pieces of evidence Zimmerman's going to need during the trial.

I'm not up on the caselaw on chain of custody rules, but it doesn't sound like there's any gap if the officer had it in his possession the entire time. Chain of custody rules always seemed to me an issue of not knowing where something was at any given moment and making sure there's no breaks in the chain of transfers from evidence collector to trial. I'll be surprised if the prosecution wants to make an issue over it.

I also wonder if chain of custody applies the same way to a defendant in a criminal trial. My educated guess would be that there's more leniency, lest the government be negligent in handling evidence that makes their case harder, not easier.

Several witnesses have now changed their stories.

One changed her mind about who was on top during the scuffle that preceded the shooting, putting Zimmerman on top.

The "throwing punches MMA-style" guy also changed his account. He now says he doesn't know who was calling out for help because it was too dark and the Martin, who he still says was on top, perhaps wasn't hitting Zimmerman, but rather just trying to keep him pinned to the ground.

And another witness, one that spoke with Zimmerman right after the shooting, said that Zimmerman acted like the fact he just shot and killed someone was no big deal.

...this just pisses me off. This late in the process, I sincerely doubt that these people all suddenly realized their memories are faulty and recovered their real memories. So instead, this means that now we can't trust these witnesses, because there's no way of knowing which story they told is true and which is false.

Dammit, I hope if I ever have the misfortune to be a witness to something horrible, that I have a clear recollection and keep myself honest on what I know I saw versus what I think I saw.

Farscry wrote:

...this just pisses me off. This late in the process, I sincerely doubt that these people all suddenly realized their memories are faulty and recovered their real memories. So instead, this means that now we can't trust these witnesses, because there's no way of knowing which story they told is true and which is false.

Dammit, I hope if I ever have the misfortune to be a witness to something horrible, that I have a clear recollection and keep myself honest on what I know I saw versus what I think I saw.

For some of these people the national dialogue has to have influenced what they believe they saw. So it isn't entirely unreasonable for some statements to change. But the guy with the MMA comment sounds like a fame seeking jerk.

Farscry wrote:

Dammit, I hope if I ever have the misfortune to be a witness to something horrible, that I have a clear recollection and keep myself honest on what I know I saw versus what I think I saw.

There's been a lot of talk in the past decade or so that witness recollections are unreliable. It's an idea that is hard to accept because we feel like what we see and remember is reality, but I guess the brain does a lot of processing of the data before and after it's stored for recollection.

Funkenpants wrote:
Farscry wrote:

Dammit, I hope if I ever have the misfortune to be a witness to something horrible, that I have a clear recollection and keep myself honest on what I know I saw versus what I think I saw.

There's been a lot of talk in the past decade or so that witness recollections are unreliable. It's an idea that is hard to accept because we feel like what we see and remember is reality, but I guess the brain does a lot of processing of the data before and after it's stored for recollection.

I understand that, and that's why you shouldn't be in a rush to share your witness testimony (especially with the public) immediately after the fact. Take your time, make sure you're comfortable with your testimony, THEN share it - with authorities.

This rush to be in the first batch of people to share what you saw with national news interviews only causes trouble - it doesn't help anything.

I'm not even *that* worried about Zimmerman. I think he's going to skate. What I'm worried about is that police department. THAT can be fixed, so that future killings of black teenagers are treated with actual respect.

That's the larger crime here, as far as I'm concerned, and that's what I want to see addressed.