The House flip flops declares war on the Census.

Of course if this means i dont have to do HMDA reporting anymore...

MacBrave wrote:

Should a U.S. citizen be required to fill out the ACS under penalty of law or should it be strictly voluntary?

The ACS needs to collect information about all types of citizens, even the paranoid ones who hate the government, for it to be an accurate snapshot of America. If it's voluntary, it skews the data.

I'm curious. Which questions from the sample survey I linked to do you think is inappropriate for the government to ask?

OG_slinger wrote:
MacBrave wrote:

Should a U.S. citizen be required to fill out the ACS under penalty of law or should it be strictly voluntary?

The ACS needs to collect information about all types of citizens, even the paranoid ones who hate the government, for it to be an accurate snapshot of America. If it's voluntary, it skews the data.

I'm curious. Which questions from the sample survey I linked to do you think is inappropriate for the government to ask?

Let see:

Pages 5-7: #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21

Pages 8-11: #7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48

MacBrave wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
MacBrave wrote:

Should a U.S. citizen be required to fill out the ACS under penalty of law or should it be strictly voluntary?

The ACS needs to collect information about all types of citizens, even the paranoid ones who hate the government, for it to be an accurate snapshot of America. If it's voluntary, it skews the data.

I'm curious. Which questions from the sample survey I linked to do you think is inappropriate for the government to ask?

Let see:

Pages 5-7: #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21

Pages 8-11: #7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48

So rather than answer the questions that are available in your tax records, deed, a simple Google search (including Google Earth), and other easily obtainable (for the government), and/or public documents, you would rather waste taxpayer money to pay a person to have to search for all of this information?

Malor wrote:
Both parties are doing a damned good job of "drowning the government in debt". Rebublicans with their endless wars, Democrats with their endless "meaningful services".

For the last 20 years or so, Democrats have been fairly good at improving the budget. It's always the Republicans that have run up the big bills.

Bush Jr. ran up more Federal debt, to GAAP standards, than all other Presidents combined.

Take out the two wars and medicare part D, all of which had a lot of Democrat support and he didn't do that at all. It's the old joke that Democrats want to raise taxes and spend the hell out of the GDP and the Republicans want to cut taxes and spend the hell out of the GDP. Both parties are terrible, the REpublicans more so now because the chickens have come home to roost from Nixon's southern strategy, talk radio, and fox news has killed the party. The Republican party needs to split. We need a viable centre-right party.

We really are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic at this point huh?

Should a U.S. citizen be required to fill out the ACS under penalty of law or should it be strictly voluntary?

Well, Congress feels it should be mandatory. They are the ones with the constitutional power to make the decision, and we are the ones with the constitutional power to change it. The question is, do enough people feel strongly about it that they can get it changed?

In the House, the answer is "yes", right now.

Take out the two wars and medicare part D, all of which had a lot of Democrat support and he didn't do that at all.

What the f*ck, Ulairi? Ignore the expenses, and the books balance?

What the hell? Ignore the biggest expenses we've ever incurred, and Bush was an okay President? Sure, no problem, I'll just handwave away half the Federal debt.

The Democrats would not have gone into Iraq, and they particularly didn't like the Medicare benefit.

Malor wrote:
Take out the two wars and medicare part D, all of which had a lot of Democrat support and he didn't do that at all.

What the f*ck, Ulairi? Ignore the expenses, and the books balance?

What the hell? Ignore the biggest expenses we've ever incurred, and Bush was an okay President? Sure, no problem, I'll just handwave away half the Federal debt.

The Democrats would not have gone into Iraq, and they particularly didn't like the Medicare benefit.

I'm not saying ignore it. I am saying that the Democrats voted for Iraq in large numbers, including the leadership and Medicare Part D received 61 votes. do you remember why they didn't like the medicare benefit? they thought it wasn't big enough.

my point was that both parties are terrible and we cannot ignore one party and scorn the other when it comes to fiscal discipline.

MacBrave wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
MacBrave wrote:

Should a U.S. citizen be required to fill out the ACS under penalty of law or should it be strictly voluntary?

The ACS needs to collect information about all types of citizens, even the paranoid ones who hate the government, for it to be an accurate snapshot of America. If it's voluntary, it skews the data.

I'm curious. Which questions from the sample survey I linked to do you think is inappropriate for the government to ask?

Let see:

Pages 5-7: #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21

Pages 8-11: #7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48

So it's inappropriate for the government to ask basically anything?

How, in your world, is the government supposed to track the demographics of its citizens so it knows what it should or shouldn't be doing? I know from other threads you really hate government waste, so how do you rectify your position that the government can't ask anything about its citizens and the subsequent waste that would happen when government programs and investments get misapplied because they're based on faulty or non-existent information?

Dezlen wrote:
MacBrave wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
MacBrave wrote:

Should a U.S. citizen be required to fill out the ACS under penalty of law or should it be strictly voluntary?

The ACS needs to collect information about all types of citizens, even the paranoid ones who hate the government, for it to be an accurate snapshot of America. If it's voluntary, it skews the data.

I'm curious. Which questions from the sample survey I linked to do you think is inappropriate for the government to ask?

Let see:

Pages 5-7: #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21

Pages 8-11: #7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48

So rather than answer the questions that are available in your tax records, deed, a simple Google search (including Google Earth), and other easily obtainable (for the government), and/or public documents, you would rather waste taxpayer money to pay a person to have to search for all of this information?

Why would anyone in the federal government care about that information concerning little 'ole me? If they want I may be convinced to sell it to them. Information is power.

Ulairi wrote:

I'm not saying ignore it. I am saying that the Democrats voted for Iraq in large numbers, including the leadership and Medicare Part D received 61 votes. do you remember why they didn't like the medicare benefit? they thought it wasn't big enough.

my point was that both parties are terrible and we cannot ignore one party and scorn the other when it comes to fiscal discipline.

Refresh your memory on the house vote over Medicare Part D.

MacBrave wrote:
Dezlen wrote:
MacBrave wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
MacBrave wrote:

Should a U.S. citizen be required to fill out the ACS under penalty of law or should it be strictly voluntary?

The ACS needs to collect information about all types of citizens, even the paranoid ones who hate the government, for it to be an accurate snapshot of America. If it's voluntary, it skews the data.

I'm curious. Which questions from the sample survey I linked to do you think is inappropriate for the government to ask?

Let see:

Pages 5-7: #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21

Pages 8-11: #7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48

So rather than answer the questions that are available in your tax records, deed, a simple Google search (including Google Earth), and other easily obtainable (for the government), and/or public documents, you would rather waste taxpayer money to pay a person to have to search for all of this information?

Why would anyone in the federal government care about that information concerning little 'ole me? If they want I may be convinced to sell it to them. Information is power.

That is ridiculous. They care because you are a citizen. They need the information to do their job. There job is taking care of you. Why should they buy it?

MacBrave wrote:

Why would anyone in the federal government care about that information concerning little 'ole me? If they want I may be convinced to sell it to them. Information is power.

It isn't about you. It is about gathering statistics. Nobody cares about your info on an individual level, but comprehensive data from a sample set that happens to include you is very important. If you can opt out, you damage the validity of the data gathered.

Answer: The government doesn't care about information concerning little 'ole you. They care about the population in aggregate... and the way to build a statistical picture of that population is to collect data on individuals.

The error here is in seeing the questionnaire as collecting data on you as an individual, when in fact it's collecting data on you as a randomly chosen instance of "a citizen".

MacBrave wrote:

Why would anyone in the federal government care about that information concerning little 'ole me? If they want I may be convinced to sell it to them. Information is power.

Hypatian put it very nicely.

More bluntly, though, you aren't useful information. You are a data point. Your data point is combined with thousands of other data points and that becomes useful information.

Your household would be selected because the government needs more data points about life in Clinton County, Indiana. So, congrats, by refusing to participate in the ACS you screwed over your neighbors.

But, hey, I'm sure everything is going swimmingly there and no one in the county would ever want the federal government coming in and investing in infrastructure or creating a jobs program based on a need they identified with the survey.

Or have that data used by private companies to figure out where they should build a factory based on the education level and manufacturing experience of the area's population (which, coincidentally, are just a few of the questions you felt it was inappropriate of the government to ask). So, congrats again for making sure that well paying jobs stay away from Clinton County!

Dezlen wrote:

So rather than answer the questions that are available in your tax records, deed, a simple Google search (including Google Earth), and other easily obtainable (for the government), and/or public documents, you would rather waste taxpayer money to pay a person to have to search for all of this information?

I'm always a little miffed when giant groups like the government or healthcare providers can't seem to shuffle the information around themselves. I realize it'd be a pretty big relational database, but it would have to be easier to throw a query at an in-house DB than ask me my ethnicity again. You know, in case it's changed?

wordsmythe wrote:
Dezlen wrote:

So rather than answer the questions that are available in your tax records, deed, a simple Google search (including Google Earth), and other easily obtainable (for the government), and/or public documents, you would rather waste taxpayer money to pay a person to have to search for all of this information?

I'm always a little miffed when giant groups like the government or healthcare providers can't seem to shuffle the information around themselves. I realize it'd be a pretty big relational database, but it would have to be easier to throw a query at an in-house DB than ask me my ethnicity again. You know, in case it's changed?

There are a few reasons why they don't do that, at least regarding the census. I'm hoping one is that they don't want to disclose that information to anyone outside of the organization, even if they're both under the wing of the government. Privacy advocates should be happy they have to keep asking.

Another is they don't want fear of the other groups to prevent you from participating in the census. If you've got tax problems or you're not even a legal citizen they still want you to participate. If they're cooperating with other government agencies then many people will hide.

Right, exactly .. and census data was apparently misused in WW2, to find and sequester the Japanese citizens, so those fears aren't terribly misplaced.

If I were Muslim, I'd seriously consider not answering that questionaire.

Since we're over a decade out from 9/11, and that has decidedly not happened, I'd say internment fears are less legit than they are disingenuous paranoia-stoking for the sake of an agenda. And I sincerely doubt such concerns were on the minds of House Republicans.

Malor wrote:

Right, exactly .. and census data was apparently misused in WW2, to find and sequester the Japanese citizens, so those fears aren't terribly misplaced.

If I were Muslim, I'd seriously consider not answering that questionaire.

Again, Congress passed a law that overruled the Census' privacy rules and forced them to release the information. The Census didn't just go "heeey guys, here's where all those Nips live, go get 'em!" You don't want Congress to do that again, don't vote for weak willed idiots.

OG_slinger wrote:
Malor wrote:

Right, exactly .. and census data was apparently misused in WW2, to find and sequester the Japanese citizens, so those fears aren't terribly misplaced.

If I were Muslim, I'd seriously consider not answering that questionaire.

Again, Congress passed a law that overruled the Census' privacy rules and forced them to release the information. The Census didn't just go "heeey guys, here's where all those Nips live, go get 'em!" You don't want Congress to do that again, don't vote for weak willed idiots.

Strong-willed idiots it is, then!

wordsmythe wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
Malor wrote:

Right, exactly .. and census data was apparently misused in WW2, to find and sequester the Japanese citizens, so those fears aren't terribly misplaced.

If I were Muslim, I'd seriously consider not answering that questionaire.

Again, Congress passed a law that overruled the Census' privacy rules and forced them to release the information. The Census didn't just go "heeey guys, here's where all those Nips live, go get 'em!" You don't want Congress to do that again, don't vote for weak willed idiots.

Strong-willed idiots it is, then!

I take my statement back. Stubborn idiots are what we have today!

Just because they're not interning people doesn't mean they're not misusing the data in other ways. The FBI has infiltrators in mosques and peaceful protest groups all over the country, and it would not surprise me if census data was helping them do this.

And not just infiltrators, actual agents provocateur.

Black helicopters on a f*cking pogo stick. When is enough enough?

Why suspect that the FBI is using f*cking census data to impose a police state when you could walk down the f*cking street and collect this [em]dangerous[/em] information.

For f*ck's sake.

Hypatian wrote:

Black helicopters on a f*cking pogo stick. When is enough enough?

Why suspect that the FBI is using f*cking census data to impose a police state when you could walk down the f*cking street and collect this [em]dangerous[/em] information.

Yeah, even by the standards of the police state thread, this is a stretch. Five seconds on Google located the mosques in my area, and I assume the FBI has access to Google just like me.

So the same group that voted against ending oil subsidies and for unconstitutional wiretapping now voted to stop the census survey because of privacy and saving tax payer money.

IMAGE(http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/01-hypocrisy-meter-e1286440629625.png)

Oh dear lord. You guys glossed right past the fact that the FBI is infiltrating peaceful protest groups.

Unreal. I would not have believed that would be possible.

If I were a Muslim in this country, there is no f*cking way I would fill out that form.

Because I don't see how filling out a census form has anything to do with that! As we said, if they want to find people to infiltrate, there are more efficient means of finding them!

They're actively being infiltrated by the FBI. Actively. Right now. FBI agents are trying to trick Muslims into fake terror plots to make themselves look better.

And you think that Muslims should be willing, nay eager, to provide even more data to the government.

Yeah, sure, whatever.