The House flip flops declares war on the Census.

This seems epically stupid. Information on our population seems an important tool of governance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...

I....wha....they....can't..be that stupid. Anyone want to defend this?

Hey Republican Party, Chiggie wrote you a letter today.

Wow. The short and long form surveys with the census are a vital tool for history, research, and business and it will be quite tragic to have them gone.

It's one of the most useful data sets the government provides to the public, specifically in economic and anthropological research. It's also a great tool for historians and citizens who can find out where their family members lived. All of the sensitive data is aggregated in such a way that if it could be used to identify wealth, race, etc because of small population numbers, the data is obscured.

What next? Will they close down the Bureau of Labor Statistics? Do we really need to measure the economy or determine when there are depressions and inflation? That's also an invasion of privacy.

When the facts don't fit well with your party line, start eliminating facts.

Reading that article it doesn't look like the census is gone, just the more detailed version.

Not that it isn't a dumbarsed idea, but misleading headlines are a Bad Thing [tm]

WTF? Seriously, What. The. f*ck.

I cannot imagine any [em]conceivable[/em] model of how the world works in which this makes sense.

Maq wrote:

Reading that article it doesn't look like the census is gone, just the more detailed version.

Not that it isn't a dumbarsed idea, but misleading headlines are a Bad Thing [tm]

The headline says the "census survey" (the American Community Survey) was cut, not the census itself, so the headline's accurate, though the thread title isn't. The ACS goes out every year to 3 million households. It was started in 2005 to replace the "long form" census survey that 1-in-6 households got in previous censuses.

I can understand their reason for taking away the government's ability to penalize people who refuse to fill it out (and suggest that they provide some incentive/reward for those that willingly fill it out), but I cannot understand why they'd want to get rid of it entirely.

Nothing is gone yet--let's just hope the Senate sees this bill for stupidity that it is.

Stengah wrote:
Maq wrote:

Reading that article it doesn't look like the census is gone, just the more detailed version.

Not that it isn't a dumbarsed idea, but misleading headlines are a Bad Thing [tm]

The headline says the "census survey" (the American Community Survey) was cut, not the census itself, so the headline's accurate, though the thread title isn't.

This is what I'm getting at =)

Still a stupid idea, but I'm rapidly getting to the "stock up on canned goods and learn how to handle a rifle" stage anyway.

I'm curious, who here has ever received the ACS?

Also, one citizen's opinion of the ACS: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...

Stengah wrote:

I can understand their reason for taking away the government's ability to penalize people who refuse to fill it out (and suggest that they provide some incentive/reward for those that willingly fill it out), but I cannot understand why they'd want to get rid of it entirely.

Because as soon as you make it not mandatory, you introduce all kinds of biases and it becomes essentially useless. At that point you might as well get rid of it entirely.

MacBrave wrote:

Also, one citizen's opinion of the ACS: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...

Bullsh*t. They pushed the same line when they got rid of the long form census here in Canada, and it's every bit as much of a load. Can we think of any good reason that the government would want to know if there's a large population of people living without flush toilets?

This is just another symptom of a government where ideology shapes facts, rather than the other way around.

necroyeti wrote:

This is just another symptom of a government where ideology shapes facts, rather than the other way around.

Ironically, you are absolutely correct - an ideology that has transformed the Commerce clause and the General Welfare clause into a blank check for the government to do whatever it wants. The Constitution allows for counting citizens in order to establish the House representatives; it doesn't authorize anything like the ACS. In fact, in the Fourth Amendment, explicitly bans such information gathering. You may not find the ACS intrusive, but other citizens do. And forcing them to fill it out by threatening to take thousands of dollars from them is wrong.

It's also not like the Census data is unique in any way. The population of the United States is, without a doubt, the most studied population in history. The ACS going away will not suddenly remove the ability of researchers to gather reliable demographic data. And removing such detailed information from government control may help prevent another mass imprisonment of citizens and residents who happen to be from another country or of a certain religion.

The real question is why the article doesn't call out the Republicans on their hypocrisy, or challenge their statements with questions like "if the ACS is intrusive and a violation of the Fourth Amendment, what about warrantless wiretaps and surveillance?"

necroyeti wrote:

Bullsh*t. They pushed the same line when they got rid of the long form census here in Canada, and it's every bit as much of a load. Can we think of any good reason that the government would want to know if there's a large population of people living without flush toilets?

This is just another symptom of a government where ideology shapes facts, rather than the other way around.

Republican's and Conservatives are always screaming about job creation. We need to find a way to create more jobs for teachers and educators. Maybe then we'd have enough highly educated people in this country so that these stupid f*cks wouldn't continue to get elected.

Maq wrote:
Stengah wrote:
Maq wrote:

Reading that article it doesn't look like the census is gone, just the more detailed version.

Not that it isn't a dumbarsed idea, but misleading headlines are a Bad Thing [tm]

The headline says the "census survey" (the American Community Survey) was cut, not the census itself, so the headline's accurate, though the thread title isn't.

This is what I'm getting at =)

Still a stupid idea, but I'm rapidly getting to the "stock up on canned goods and learn how to handle a rifle" stage anyway.

Fine! I will change it once I finish waking up.

I'm not going to argue with you on ideological grounds, because I don't think we agree, and I have seen where that goes.

Aetius wrote:

The population of the United States is, without a doubt, the most studied population in history. The ACS going away will not suddenly remove the ability of researchers to gather reliable demographic data.

But this is more than just a throwaway line. I'm interested in how researchers will be able to get real, statistically valid representative samples of the population without this (or programs like it) in place.

And removing such detailed information from government control may help prevent another mass imprisonment of citizens and residents who happen to be from another country or of a certain religion.

If I can indulge in crackpottery for a moment, the demographic information they're going to use to throw you in Gitmo isn't going to be from the ACS, it's going to be housed in a data centre in Utah, which conveniently has information on more than just 1 in 6 Americans.

The real question is why the article doesn't call out the Republicans on their hypocrisy, or challenge their statements with questions like "if the ACS is intrusive and a violation of the Fourth Amendment, what about warrantless wiretaps and surveillance?"

Totally with you on this one though.

Bear wrote:
necroyeti wrote:

Bullsh*t. They pushed the same line when they got rid of the long form census here in Canada, and it's every bit as much of a load. Can we think of any good reason that the government would want to know if there's a large population of people living without flush toilets?

This is just another symptom of a government where ideology shapes facts, rather than the other way around.

Republican's and Conservatives are always screaming about job creation. We need to find a way to create more jobs for teachers and educators. Maybe then we'd have enough highly educated people in this country so that these stupid f*cks wouldn't continue to get elected.

I would say that I agree with this statement, however, once the "leave no child behind" act/law (whatever it is) was introduced, you started having morons come through schools at a much higher rate. When the teacher/educator is bound to let those who put no effort into learning move on, you get people who have very little to contribute to society making decisions that will impact others. I don't believe that making more jobs would be a solution.

In fact, in the Fourth Amendment, explicitly bans such information gathering.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." There is no search, there is no seizure. The Fourth Amendment does not apply in this case.

Information provided to the census is kept secret by law for at least 70 years (remember the recent release of census data from the early 40's?). And only about 2% of households get the 40-question ACS.

Census returns are not available to law enforcement, explicitly, by law. And the Constitution directs the census to be taken as ordered by Congress, meaning that yes, it's perfectly constitutional to have Congress pass laws about what information is to be gathered. And the case law in challenges to the census has upheld it's legality since the 1870's.

There is no basis for saying that any of the Census questionnaires are unconstitutional, period. That's just counter-factual.

MacBrave wrote:

I'm curious, who here has ever received the ACS?

Showed up late last year/early this year. Ignored the first one. Second one came. Forgot to mail the form I had filled out, and a Census worker showed up at my house on a Saturday afternoon.

It's a stalker's wet dream:
List every person in your house
How much they make
When they leave for work and how long it takes
Where they work, what they do there
Did the children go to preschool, and what grade are they in now
How much do you pay for electricity, gas, etc.
How much you pay for your rent/mortgage
etc.

It was creepy, and was heavy on the "this is why the ACS is good for America and you'll be helping people!" propaganda. Of course, pretty much every sheet had a reminder that there were civil and criminal penalties for non-compliance.

Repeated emphasis that it guided federal tax dollars, which made me laugh because I'm in the burbs, so my survey will help establish that they should pull more money and send it to the urban blight zone. After all, I have broadband, a telephone, and those fancy flush toilets.

I'm interested in how researchers will be able to get real, statistically valid representative samples of the population without this (or programs like it) in place.

Buy it from marketing firms doing much more highly intrusive minute-by-minute monitoring of citizens? But that's okay, I guess, because it's not government asking 10 questions once per decade (or, for the lucky 2%, 40 questions).

By the way, here's the incredibly unconsitutional, intrusive, unethical, immoral and fattening ACS questionnaire that will help destroy our freedoms. It makes me shiver, I can feel my rights being violated just *reading* it...

It's a stalker's wet dream:

Good thing it's not public information for most of your life, then. As noted, your responses are not available to the public, to law enforcement, whatever.

Robear wrote:
It's a stalker's wet dream:

Good thing it's not public information for most of your life, then. As noted, your responses are not available to the public, to law enforcement, whatever.

Yes, the literature mentions that a few times. I do worry about data leaks though, not that it's information many American's wouldn't hand over for a $5 McDonald coupon though.

I haven't read the particular statute. I wonder if it's like many others where they could change their mind and easily amend the law to include data sharing with law enforcement on national security grounds?

I don't know, Codger. That would be a legitimate worry for people. But as it stands today? I don't see it as a problem.

I'd worry - I *do* worry - more about NSA slurping up the Internet, and how that data will be used. We need to pay attention to the powers of these agencies, and what they do with them, but in large part most attention is on the relatively small sharp-end-of-the-stick stuff that is actually less impactful over time than these quiet changes that affect literally everyone, every day.

Aetius wrote:

It's also not like the Census data is unique in any way. The population of the United States is, without a doubt, the most studied population in history. The ACS going away will not suddenly remove the ability of researchers to gather reliable demographic data. And removing such detailed information from government control may help prevent another mass imprisonment of citizens and residents who happen to be from another country or of a certain religion.

The real question is why the article doesn't call out the Republicans on their hypocrisy, or challenge their statements with questions like "if the ACS is intrusive and a violation of the Fourth Amendment, what about warrantless wiretaps and surveillance?"

Did you ever stop to think that the population of the United States is the most studied population in history in part because of the ACS (and, previously, the long form)? I mean what other organization collects detailed demographic information from three million Americans every year? Seriously. Tell me. Prove your assertion that the ACS can be easily replaced.

Your point about mass imprisonment is bullsh*t and you likely know it. The Census Bureau didn't just hand over information about where Japanese lived after Pearl Harbor. They were ordered to by Congress after it passed the Second War Powers Act. As long as idiot Congressmen don't try to override the Census' existing privacy rules then there's absolutely no problem with collecting the information.

The proper way to attack it is to challenge the GOP on their own terms. They try to portray themselves the party of no-nonsense people who are responsible with taxpayers' money. And they're always going on about how government should be more like businesses. You know what businesses do? Collect metric sh*t tons of data--data about their customers, data about their operations--and analyze it to figure out how they can improve what they do. There's even a b-school mantra for it: you cannot improve what you do not measure.

The ACS provides Congress with the information it needs to allocate hundreds of billions of dollars of government spending each and every year. Without that data Congress has no idea if it's spending money on the right programs or if it's having the expected effect. In short, without the ACS they'd just be wasting lots and lots of taxpayer money.

MacBrave wrote:

I'm curious, who here has ever received the ACS?

Also, one citizen's opinion of the ACS: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...

I have. I didn't consider it intrusive because I have a brain and could understand what data they were collecting based on the questions. I mean do you really care if the government knows you live in an apartment instead of a house, what your electricity bill was last month, or how long it takes for you to get to work?

The personal questions about you and who you live with aren't out of the ordinary: your ethnicity, your relationship to the people you live with, your education level, etc. Even the financial questions are pretty vanilla. Yes, they ask how much money you make, but the government kinda already knows that. I'd be more creeped out if they said "don't worry about the income part, we'll just pull your last income tax filing from the IRS."

Heck, you can see a sample of the types of questions they ask here and judge for yourself.

OG_slinger wrote:

You know what businesses do? Collect metric sh*t tons of data--data about their customers, data about their operations--and analyze it to figure out how they can improve what they do.

Right, and a lot of businesses, and state and municipal governments, use detailed census data to plan operations, too. It's part of our information infrastructure.

I'm surprised that a party which happily supports waterboarding and torture in the name of protecting freedom would be so concerned about a questionnaire that actually collects useful information.

Business expansion, Health, Schools, Transportation, Land Use Planning, all use this data. And I have never heard of personal data ever coming out of the Census Office.

Republicans are nuts.

Long Form Census data is a tool that has made America a superpower.

The purpose of the Republican party is to destroy the mechanics of governance, by drowning the government in debt and removing its ability to provide meaningful services. Making sure it doesn't know who needs help is just another step in that process.

Malor wrote:

The purpose of the Republican party is to destroy the mechanics of governance, by drowning the government in debt and removing its ability to provide meaningful services. Making sure it doesn't know who needs help is just another step in that process.

Both parties are doing a damned good job of "drowning the government in debt". Rebublicans with their endless wars, Democrats with their endless "meaningful services".

OG_slinger wrote:
MacBrave wrote:

I'm curious, who here has ever received the ACS?

Also, one citizen's opinion of the ACS: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...

I have. I didn't consider it intrusive because I have a brain and could understand what data they were collecting based on the questions. I mean do you really care if the government knows you live in an apartment instead of a house, what your electricity bill was last month, or how long it takes for you to get to work?

The personal questions about you and who you live with aren't out of the ordinary: your ethnicity, your relationship to the people you live with, your education level, etc. Even the financial questions are pretty vanilla. Yes, they ask how much money you make, but the government kinda already knows that. I'd be more creeped out if they said "don't worry about the income part, we'll just pull your last income tax filing from the IRS."

Heck, you can see a sample of the types of questions they ask here and judge for yourself.

Should a U.S. citizen be required to fill out the ACS under penalty of law or should it be strictly voluntary?

Both parties are doing a damned good job of "drowning the government in debt". Rebublicans with their endless wars, Democrats with their endless "meaningful services".

For the last 20 years or so, Democrats have been fairly good at improving the budget. It's always the Republicans that have run up the big bills.

Bush Jr. ran up more Federal debt, to GAAP standards, than all other Presidents combined.