Why is George Zimmerman allowed to roam free tonight?

Paleocon,
apparently CNN had audio experts who said tht it was punks he said, not coons. I didn't hear "coons", but then again I'm not a racist. Was Zimmerman doing the NW patrol? I seem to recall he was on his way to the store when he spotted Martin, but I've read so many different articles on this thing they are starting to blur together at this point.

Jeff-66,
"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about." That is what Zimmerman said, that Martin was just out and wandering around, not like he's headed anywhere in particular, in a gated community.
Then again Zimmerman had a neighbor move away after two young men broke into her home, while she was there, a few months earlier. One of the two fled through Zimmermans yard before the police could arrive. The police told the woman to get a dog, she chose to move out of the neighborhood instead. The Zimmermans got another dog. (I linked the article a few posts back)
Would he have called if it had been a white girl? Do you know he wouldn't have? Are you a friend of his?

In other news: On Stand your Ground CNN had an interesting piece

rosenhane wrote:

Jeff-66,
"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about." That is what Zimmerman said, that Martin was just out and wandering around, not like he's headed anywhere in particular, in a gated community.
Then again Zimmerman had a neighbor move away after two young men broke into her home, while she was there, a few months earlier. One of the two fled through Zimmermans yard before the police could arrive. The police told the woman to get a dog, she chose to move out of the neighborhood instead. The Zimmermans got another dog. (I linked the article a few posts back)
Would he have called if it had been a white girl? Do you know he wouldn't have? Are you a friend of his?

Do yourself a favor and look into the reports from all the 911 calls Zimmerman made. You'll see that he has an established pattern of being overly concerned about anyone black (down to calling the police about a kid of about 7 or 8 walking around) and just plain being suspicious about anyone and anything (drive too fast through his neighborhood: call 911; drive too slow: call 911; doesn't recognize the person or car of one of the hundreds of people that also live in the area: call 911). He was wired to think the worst of anyone he personally didn't know. Couple that with an inflated sense of being a crime fighter and him packing heat and you get what happened: someone innocent killed.

But obviously Zimmerman is a racist

Again, rosenhane, you're missing the entire point of the thread. It's not really about Zimmerman. It's about the way the case was so egregiously mishandled by the police.

What Zimmerman did was terrible, and probably a crime, and strikes me as probably driven by racism. But what infuriated most folks was that Zimmerman wasn't arrested and investigated properly.

It's also important to remember that NBC has been demonstrably cooking the evidence to make him look bad, so people being angrier than the actual facts would justify is completely reasonable. They were lied to; the evidence was presented in an actively misleading way. And it seems that the other networks grabbed NBC's framing and ran with it, instead of doing proper journalism themselves.

This whole thing makes us look terrible on many levels. Everyone involved in this case looks incompetent to me, from Zimmerman to Martin to the police to the prosecutors to the media.

We are now firmly, firmly in the post-competence era. The scale is far smaller, but I'd call this Katrina-level stupidity on everyone's part. The rot of people who are just no goddamn good at their jobs continues to spread.

Malor,
Explain to me what difference having held Zimmerman in jail would have made to the investigation? Zimmerman admitted to having shot Trayvon, they weren't looking to find out who the shooter was, he admitted to it. Other than denying a potentially completely innocent Zimmerman his freedom and placating an angry mob who appear to have been happily ready to lynch Zimmerman without any need for an annoying trial.

You know what though I have to wonder, what would have the reaction been if Zimmerman had been a white girl? Would everyone have been criticizing her for defending herself?

rosenhane wrote:

Malor,
Explain to me what difference having held Zimmerman in jail would have made to the investigation? Zimmerman admitted to having shot Trayvon, they weren't looking to find out who the shooter was, he admitted to it. Other than denying a potentially completely innocent Zimmerman his freedom and placating an angry mob who appear to have been happily ready to lynch Zimmerman without any need for an annoying trial.

Even if someone "admits" to the crime, there are procedures in place that were supposed to have been followed to gather evidence no matter what. Those were very badly shorted/skipped/polluted by the police department's actions.

Just because Zimmerman admitted it doesn't mean the story is over in terms of the law; people can withdraw their confessions, and there are always legal maneuverings in sentencing. That's why the evidence gathering rules are in place. There's actually a whole library of law called the Rules of Criminal Procedure for both police and lawyers at both the state and federal level, and Sanford PD blew them off.

It doesn't matter what we think here. We're basically in another O.J. Simpson trial, and I bet this will come to as stupid a conclusion.

Were they though? They interviewed Zimmerman, they collected evidence at the scene. People keep making it out like they told Zimmerman to go on home after the shooting, they brought him to the jail, and interviewed him. Evidence gathering on the scene would have happened that night. I've seen no evidence that the police skipped the follow up work. Other than costing taxpayers a bunch of money what evidence could police not gather with Zimmerman free, that they could with him in jail?

I am not a lawyer, but I work with the law. Here are some of the things that indicate to me that even the most basic procedures were not followed.

Things that Zimmerman needed to be in custody for:
- Not taking Zimmerman to the doctor while they had him in custody is a huge blunder. Without even a basic official assessment of his physical condition and documentation by a physician the biggest clues for motivation are long gone and we're stuck with hearsay and non-official video sources.
- The evidence gathering at the scene was anywhere from laughable to non-existent.
- The wrong type of officers handled the case. Procedures for Narcotics are different than Homicide.

Things that would have been better had he been in custody for:
- They didn't even do the basics like contact the witnesses for days. Particularly damning is the girl who was on the phone with the boy when it happened.

Other failures:
- They didn't even notify his next of kin for three days.
- Ridiculous amounts of "evidence" have been leaked, polluting the investigation and the subsequent trial possibly beyond recovery.

To take in order your points:
1 Zimmerman refused to see the doctor, I believe he still has that right of refusal even if he is being held. he was seen by an EMT, and I'm sure they will be called to testify.
2 The gathering of evidence at the scene is not relevant to Zimmerman being behind bars.
3 It's a small town with 3 homicides a year on average. I am willing to bet that there is a good chance there wasn't a single homicide detective working at the time.
4 I'm not sure when they talked to the girl, or if they could use anything she gave them, as she wasn't physically there and can only speculate as to what happened after she lost the connection. Martin was alive when she last spoke to him.
5 I've seen reports saying they were notified the next morning when they put a missing persons report in for him. see my above posts
6 I'll grant you this one, but I don't know who it is leaking information. I'm guessing it is more likely to be someone in the political end of the spectrum than actual cops. Even the stuff that has been released was greatly altered to incite angry calls for "justice" to be done.

1 - That is simply not the case. EMT's aren't properly trained to take evidence. Doctors are. In the proper course of things you don't get to chose to not let them take pictures and documents your injuries. You can't even refuse to take a shower when you're in custody. Think about it - if you could, then you could refuse to be fingerprinted or any number of other evidence gathering and identifying procedures.

2 - It's very relevant to him being behind bars. If he's out and about and able to change/modify the scene or other areas (like his house) that may contain evidence, hide or change corroborating evidence, or contact and pollute his witnesses then it's a problem. This is why the police have the ability to take you in and keep you for 72 hours, to allow for this sort of thing.

3 - That's not true. They have a five person Criminal Investigations team. It's also irrelevant - usual procedure is the responding officers secure the scene and call in the proper team to investigate a murder. If they really weren't available, they simply should have secured the scene (making sure NO ONE got in or out) and took the suspect into custody until the proper investigation team could get there. However, my guess is at least one of those guys was on call.

4 - The investigating police can't know whether or not she can help before they talk to her. Whether or not you think she's important is not germane to the fact they didn't do it. I can't imagine a murder investigation where the last person to talk to the victim alive wouldn't be important. Especially considering how close to the incident the conversation was. That's why talking to ALL witnesses as soon as humanly possible is such a very important of proper procedure.

5 - I saw that. I've also seen others that say otherwise. Often by the same person. See my last point again.

6 - I'm not disputing you about the flame-mongering. But those videos in particular should never have seen the light of day before the trial. And that came from the cops.

momgamer wrote:

1 - That is simply not the case. EMT's aren't properly trained to take evidence. Doctors are. In the proper course of things you don't get to chose to not let them take pictures and documents your injuries. You can't even refuse to take a shower when you're in custody. Think about it - if you could, then you could refuse to be fingerprinted or any number of other evidence gathering and identifying procedures.

2 - It's very relevant to him being behind bars. If he's out and about and able to change/modify the scene or other areas (like his house) that may contain evidence, hide or change corroborating evidence, or contact and pollute his witnesses then it's a problem. This is why the police have the ability to take you in and keep you for 72 hours, to allow for this sort of thing.

3 - That's not true. They have a five person Criminal Investigations team. It's also irrelevant - usual procedure is the responding officers secure the scene and call in the proper team to investigate a murder. If they really weren't available, they simply should have secured the scene (making sure NO ONE got in or out) and took the suspect into custody until the proper investigation team could get there. However, my guess is at least one of those guys was on call.

4 - The investigating police can't know whether or not she can help before they talk to her. Whether or not you think she's important is not germane to the fact they didn't do it. I can't imagine a murder investigation where the last person to talk to the victim alive wouldn't be important. Especially considering how close to the incident the conversation was. That's why talking to ALL witnesses as soon as humanly possible is such a very important of proper procedure.

5 - I saw that. I've also seen others that say otherwise. Often by the same person. See my last point again.

6 - I'm not disputing you about the flame-mongering. But those videos in particular should never have seen the light of day before the trial. And that came from the cops.

But then aren't we trying to condemn Zimmerman for the faults of a horrible local police force? If he's innocent till proven guilty, don't we give him at least the benefit of the doubt that he was in danger of dying and shot as a last resort?

jdzappa wrote:

But then aren't we trying to condemn Zimmerman for the faults of a horrible local police force? If he's innocent till proven guilty, don't we give him at least the benefit of the doubt that he was in danger of dying and shot as a last resort?

Only if we lose sight that the shooting and the investigation of the shooting are separate events. There is more than enough fault to be spread around. Regardless of whether or not Zimmerman's killing of Martin was justified, the investigaion appears to be a cluster-frack of incompetence.

You are correct to point out that the botching of the investigation does not make it more likely that Zimmerman's killing of Trayvon Martin was 2nd degree murder as opposed to a justifiable homicide, but to point out that the police lack professional competence is not to ignore the fact that Zimmerman killed another man that night.

As for the benefit of the doubt and being innocent until proven guilty, seeing as how it took extradinary efforts by the public and national political figures for Zimmerman to even be called before a court to answer for killing another human being, it seems clear that he's had that and more. He'll get his day in court and the justice system will consider him innocent until proven guilty.

Oso wrote:
jdzappa wrote:

But then aren't we trying to condemn Zimmerman for the faults of a horrible local police force? If he's innocent till proven guilty, don't we give him at least the benefit of the doubt that he was in danger of dying and shot as a last resort?

Only if we lose sight that the shooting and the investigation of the shooting are separate events. There is more than enough fault to be spread around. Regardless of whether or not Zimmerman's killing of Martin was justified, the investigaion appears to be a cluster-frack of incompetence.

You are correct to point out that the botching of the investigation does not make it more likely that Zimmerman's killing of Trayvon Martin was 2nd degree murder as opposed to a justifiable homicide, but to point out that the police lack professional competence is not to ignore the fact that Zimmerman killed another man that night.

As for the benefit of the doubt and being innocent until proven guilty, seeing as how it took extradinary efforts by the public and national political figures for Zimmerman to even be called before a court to answer for killing another human being, it seems clear that he's had that and more. He'll get his day in court and the justice system will consider him innocent until proven guilty.

He was charged within what - a month after the shooting? That's actually pretty fast for a confusing and politically charged case like this one, though I'll give you that he should have been arrested at the scene. We expect instant justice or else the entire system is incompetent and racist, yet that's pretty unrealistic. Murder investigations can take a long time to put together. Sorry but I'm still not convinced that the Zimmerman case is evidence of a racist and corrupt justice system.

Speaking only for myself, I don't expect instant justice. I do expect that set proceedures be followed in a professional and competent manner. There is quite a difference.

Instant justice = shooting people for looking suspicious or being the wrong skin color or socio-economic background in a gated community.

Professional and competent police-work = following proceedures and protocols at the time of the incident without having a grand jury investigate and reverse your inaction.

Can we at least agree that if the local police had done their job correctly the Grand Jury would have agreed that inaction was proper step? Or do you feel that the Grand Jury was in error and the original decision not to hold Zimmerman accountable for the shooting death of Martin was the correct decision?

jdzappa wrote:

But then aren't we trying to condemn Zimmerman for the faults of a horrible local police force? If he's innocent till proven guilty, don't we give him at least the benefit of the doubt that he was in danger of dying and shot as a last resort?

I'm not trying to condemn Zimmerman. My post has nothing to do with him. It is all about what should have been done no matter who did what in any situation.

Procedure is in place for a reason. To remove all the variables possible and do as much as can be done to get to the real facts of the matter. Not necessarily to convict a given suspect, but to find out what really happened one way or the other. It's someone else's job to determine if the evidence gathered indicates someone should go to trial.

I believe that with the way this was handled there really isn't going to be enough proof one way or the other. There are holes in the evidence chain even a barely competent defense lawyer can drive a Mack truck through. And between that and the media circus this has hung jury written all over it. The only thing I can see to do that might be constructive is figuring out how we ended up in this situation so we can try to prevent it in the future.

I think I've been pretty good about stating from the beginning that my outrage is pretty much directed at the apparent complete and utter clusterfcuk the Sanford PD perpetrated by shoddy and unprofessional police work. Zimmerman is pretty much just doing what most scared, holster sniffing mall ninjas with retired federal judge dad's would do if they shot someone they shouldn't have. What makes this story remarkable is not Zimmerman. It's the Sanford PD.

holster sniffing mall ninjas

LOL

If there is one thing you really excel at Pale, it's insult originality. Even at this point, I doubt Zimmerman has heard that one.

Nomad wrote:
holster sniffing mall ninjas

LOL

If there is one thing you really excel at Pale, it's insult originality. Even at this point, I doubt Zimmerman has heard that one. :)

Thanks. Now I just wish I could get a job writing for that show Justified.

Jdzappa,
Just to be clear: Zimmerman was arrested at the scene. He was released the next day.
Momgamer,
Exactly what sort of evidence would the police be gathering, other than the witness statements (which I'm not sure when those occurred, so I don't know if it was before or after Zimmerman was released.)

Oso,
The community is something like 20% hispanic and 20% African-American. An African-American person isn't the wrong skin color for that community. I haven't seen anything to show that Zimmerman had any sort of bigotry against African-Americans. It is difficult to say if the case would have gone to court, it could still be thrown out in the end. The public wanted a lynching, not justice.

rosenhane wrote:

Jdzappa,
Just to be clear: Zimmerman was arrested at the scene. He was released the next day.

Zimmerman wasn't arrested until April 11th. He killed Trayvon on February 26th. The police brought him to the station that night and questioned him for several hours and took his statement in which he claimed self-defense. The lead investigator sought permission to arrest him on charges of manslaughter (he said he was not convinced by Zimmerman's version of events), but the State Attorney's office didn't think they could get a conviction, so they ordered him to be released.

Personally, I'd like the outcome of all this to be that the Stand Your Ground law and those like it repealed. I've got no problem with someone killing someone else in self defense if their life is truly in danger, but laws like this encourage people to put themselves in that kind of situation. Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation when he left his car to follow Trayvon and felt that he had legal justification to do so.

rosenhane wrote:

I haven't seen anything to show that Zimmerman had any sort of bigotry against African-Americans.

I told you to look up Zimmerman's 911 call history before. He has quite a history of calling the police anytime there was a black male walking around.

Bah! Double post.

Stengah wrote:
rosenhane wrote:

Jdzappa,
Just to be clear: Zimmerman was arrested at the scene. He was released the next day.

Zimmerman wasn't arrested until April 11th. He killed Trayvon on February 26th. The police brought him to the station that night and questioned him for several hours and took his statement in which he claimed self-defense. The lead investigator sought permission to arrest him on charges of manslaughter (he said he was not convinced by Zimmerman's version of events), but the State Attorney's office didn't think they could get a conviction, so they ordered him to be released.

Personally, I'd like the outcome of all this to be that the Stand Your Ground law and those like it repealed. I've got no problem with someone killing someone else in self defense if their life is truly in danger, but laws like this encourage people to put themselves in that kind of situation. Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation when he left his car to follow Trayvon and felt that he had legal justification to do so.

OG_slinger wrote:
rosenhane wrote:

I haven't seen anything to show that Zimmerman had any sort of bigotry against African-Americans.

I told you to look up Zimmerman's 911 call history before. He has quite a history of calling the police anytime there was a black male walking around.

I'm not convinced that we're not being trolled. Rosenhane is blatantly ignoring facts that are easily available for any news source and this thread.

SixteenBlue wrote:

I'm not convinced that we're not being trolled. Rosenhane is blatantly ignoring facts that are easily available for any news source and this thread.

I wonder that myself, but it is useful to have someone who doesn't doesn't buy into the consensus opinion. At the very least, it brings the evidence to the forefront, rather than the conclusions we draw from that evidence.

For me, anyway, I'd be likely to fall into the over-simplified line of thinking "Zimmerman = bad guy, Martin = good guy", and overlook the reasons for thinking that way.

So, even if there is some trolling going on, it can serve a useful purpose. At least I can use an occasional reminder that Zimmerman isn't on trial as a scapegoat for all the evils of racism. He's on trial for second degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

Of course, you are also right that it can be tedious having to re-establish points after they have been solidly established.

Stengah,
So when the police slap cuffs on you, put you in the back of a squad car, bring you down to jail, then question you... that doesn't qualify as being arrested? I definitely would call it being arrested, but maybe there is some legal difference. Either way under Florida code "he agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful." meaning unless they had some sort of evidence that Zimmerman was lying they had to release him. It wasn't a police screw up, they were following what the law said they must do.

OG_slinger, I only counted 4 calls that specified black males, out of 47 pages of reports. over 4 years. Also that 1/4th of the calls he made about black males were specifically about Martin the night he died.

SixteenBlue, I feel the same way after "evidence" keeps getting trotted out proving things that have been already shown to be distortion and sometimes outright fabrications. Yet I keep seeing them trotted out again and again and called the truth. It's almost as bad as dealing with people who refuse to believe in climate change, they've got their view set and refuse to look at any evidence.

hmm that reminds me there was no Grand Jury in this case so far. Washington Post. The SP made the decision by herself. I've seen the GJ talked about a couple times, just thought I'd point that out.

rosenhane wrote:

OG_slinger, I only counted 4 calls that specified black males, out of 47 pages of reports. over 4 years. Also that 1/4th of the calls he made about black males were specifically about Martin the night he died.

Specified is the key. Who knows how many of his other 911 calls were about blacks but the race simply wasn't noted?

Seriously, though. He called the police nearly 50 times. I've lived in some of the shadiest parts of Chicago and never once had to call the cops. And yet Zimmerman lived in a gated community in one of the better parts of town and he called 911 so much he likely had it on speed dial.

It's one thing to be concerned about your neighbors. It's something entirely different when you're calling the cops because people are driving too fast or too slow for your tastes or you simply don't recognize them and they're daring to walk around in *your* neighborhood.

All it does is paint a picture that Zimmerman was a wannabe cop who instantly assumed the worst in people.

And that is made clear from the transcript of Zimmerman's 911 call. Within 90 seconds he told the police that Martin was 1) up to no good, 2) was on drugs or something, 3) he's casing the neighborhood, 4) he had something in his pants (the assumption being that it's something illegal), 5) something was "wrong with him", 6) he had something in his hands (again, is it against the law to be carrying something?), 7) that Martin was staring at Zimmerman and checking him out (in a threatening manner, of course), and 8) calling Martin an asshole and saying that "they always get away." It's pretty clear, especially from that last bit, that Zimmerman already assumed Martin was a criminal.

Apparently this isn't the first time that George Zimmerman has had dealings with the cops and an assault on a black man .

So let me understand this though, you are criticizing him for calling the cops often... But I've seen the him criticized here because instead of initially following Martin he should have instead... called the cops? Is what the Neighborhood Watch people are supposed to do is call the cops when they see something, right?
I mean calling about people driving too fast in your residential neighborhood, where children like to play in the streets. What an ass. What could possibly go wrong in that scenario?

I'm sorry if I'm getting snarky, but I'm getting sick of a Latino getting pilloried in the media simply because someone thought he was white at first and wanted to get some ratings with a good racial profiling case to work up the viewer base.

If anyone responds to this and it has changed, sorry I've been editing it to try and cut some of the sarcasm out of my response. It's been difficult.

No, he shouldn't have followed him AND he shouldn't have called the cops. It was a kid walking home.

We have the benefit of hindsight to see how ludicrous Zimmerman's actions were. We have the benefit of his past behavior to characterize why he was acting ridiculous.

rosenhane wrote:

Stengah,
So when the police slap cuffs on you, put you in the back of a squad car, bring you down to jail, then question you... that doesn't qualify as being arrested? I definitely would call it being arrested, but maybe there is some legal difference. Either way under Florida code "he agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful." meaning unless they had some sort of evidence that Zimmerman was lying they had to release him. It wasn't a police screw up, they were following what the law said they must do.

You're correct that being brought to the station does not count as being arrested. Bringing someone in for questioning is a different thing than arresting someone and then questioning. I imagine Zimmerman willingly went to the station too (as soon as it was announced the police wanted to arrest him, he turned himself in), and the handcuffs were procedure. As I pointed out above, the reason he wasn't arrested or charged was because the State Attorney's Office told the officer in charge of the case/investigation to let Zimmerman go. I don't think that particular part was messed up by the police, but by the State AO for not allowing the police to arrest and charge him like they wanted to.

Keep in mind we are not the media and we don't care about what Zimmerman looks like, just what he's done.

rosenhane wrote:

Apparently this isn't the first time that George Zimmerman has had dealings with the cops and an assault on a black man .

So says a family member. An anonymous family member.

Zimmerman also had a couple of charges of resisting police with violence, battery on police, domestic violence, and had a restraining order taken out against him by his ex-fiance. What are we supposed to read into that?

rosenhane wrote:

So let me understand this though, you are criticizing him for calling the cops often... But I've seen the him criticized here because instead of initially following Martin he should have instead... called the cops? Is what the Neighborhood Watch people are supposed to do is call the cops when they see something, right?

I mean calling about people driving too fast in your residential neighborhood, where children like to play in the streets. What an ass. What could possibly go wrong in that scenario?

Yes. I'm criticizing him for calling the cops for every tiny thing that happened in his neighborhood especially when he was doing that *years* before he was part of any watch program (that wasn't started until mid-2011). I'm criticizing him because he left his car to confront Martin after being told not to. I'm especially criticizing him for caring a gun, something that was explicitly against Neighborhood Watch rules.

I'm also criticizing his gated community for having such a half-assed Neighborhood Watch, one that wasn't recognized by the National Sheriff's Association, the body that runs the USA on Watch national Neighborhood Watch organization. That meant no one was trained on what they should--and shouldn't--do.

And we're all criticizing the bumbling Barney Fifes that made up the Stanford PD.

rosenhane wrote:

I'm sorry if I'm getting snarky, but I'm getting sick of a Latino getting pilloried in the media simply because someone thought he was white at first and wanted to get some ratings with a good racial profiling case to work up the viewer base.

Now I can at least understand a reason why you've repeatedly insisted that Zimmerman did nothing wrong.

We've known Zimmerman was Hispanic since page three of this thread. Hell, I was the one who pointed out that Zimmerman was, in fact, Hispanic and not white.

But let's not pull any punches. We'd all be lying if we said race wasn't a big part of this.

Zimmerman's gated community was in decline. Lots of properties were in foreclosure and the demographics of the neighborhood changed. Whites left and more blacks came in. At the same time Zimmerman was making anonymous 911 calls (pre-Neighborhood Watch days) about houses where he all but accuses them of selling drugs, complaining about loud parties, complaining about people arguing in the streets, and more. Those are all very clear signs he wasn't happy about the direction his neighborhood was going in and that had to do with shifting demographics.

The events that led up to the formation of the so-called Neighborhood Watch program was a series of break-ins over the summer of 2011. Witnesses said the perpetrators were black. Zimmerman had a bike stolen off his porch that summer by a black teen. And one of Zimmerman's immediate neighbors was the victim of a home invasion that summer. The perpetrators, again black, fled through Zimmerman's property when chased by the police. (Source.)

It's very hard to know all that--and hear Zimmerman say "those assholes always get away" on the 911 tape--and insist that race had nothing to do with why Martin got shot.

I don't give a sh*t if Zimmerman was Hispanic, white, black, Asian, or whatever. It's clear he made his mind up about Martin based largely on his race and decided he was going to play Dirty Harry. Because of that Martin is dead. And because of that Zimmerman needs to get locked up.

Had he not immediately assumed Martin was up to no good we would not be having this conversation.

Looks like Florida's self defense laws are completely dysfunctional.

The more I hear about how monumentally fubared that state is, the gladder I am I live in the People's Republic of Maryland.