Israeli Zionist Ogranization suggest anexation of C teritories

Naftali Benet , the Head of of MyIsrael (Israeli Zionist Organization) suggests to Annex most of of the west banks C territories, giving Israeli Citizenship to the 50000 ~ Palestinians who live in it and interconnect areas B and A to allow free movement inside them. The organization made an "animated" video but it's still in Hebrew you can still understand it from the pictures.

He claims in the video that Israel already annexed East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights using the same formula. He claims that no country in the world recognize these those annexations ( Israeli controlled for the past 45 years) so annexing a section of the West Bank will solve most of the problems while the international community wouldn't do anything about this the annexation of the Golan heights and East Jerusalem

I'm not sure if this organization has a political party associated with it. If it does it may affect the upcoming early elections. With no peace plan on the horizon this is a doable one sided plan much like the disengagement plan that didn't work too well but this time none will get displaced.

Spoiler:

I bet some people are "happy": An Israel topic sprinkled with land grabs. I suggest we try our best to stick to the rules to evade an early lock or worst.

"MyIsrael" sure sounds like a 90s era dot-com with a sketchy business plan.

The map I see makes area C look like every part of the west bank that doesn't have a lot of people in it. A sea of brown surrounding islands of chock full of Palestinians. Is that correct?

Other than granting citizenship to the few Palestinians remaining in area C, how is this plan different than the status quo? Israel already has full governmental control over area C, doesn't it? How does this change anything?

Makes it even less possible for a Palestinian state to ever exist.

I think it was Thomas Friedman that stated that the fear among Jewish Israelis of a one state solution is that Christian and Muslim Palestinians will eventually outnumber the Jews or at the very least constitute a disruptive voting bloc if given rights as citizens. Since so much of what a Jewish state is depends on the exclusion of non Jews in the governing process, I think it is fair to say that this proposal is a non-starter.

Is it inappropriate for me to ask if those Palestinians even want Israeli citizenship?

LobsterMobster wrote:

Is it inappropriate for me to ask if those Palestinians even want Israeli citizenship?

That and it would most definitely be the second-class citizenship that Israeli Arabs already experience.

LobsterMobster wrote:

Is it inappropriate for me to ask if those Palestinians even want Israeli citizenship?

No. Although the conventional wisdom is that Israel would never absorb all Palestinians and give them all citizen ship and voting rights. If they did the Prime Minister of Israel would be from Hamas in the next election.

This is really quite clever and a bit devious. Absorb a part of Palestine by giving people citizenship (but not enough people to overwhelm Israel demographically). Meanwhile continue to fight over the rest of Israel an keep those Palestinians in limbo.

DSGamer wrote:

If they did the Prime Minister of Israel would be from Hamas in the next election.

In a country where Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated for not being hardcore enough. I doubt a Hamas member would last long.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

"MyIsrael" sure sounds like a 90s era dot-com with a sketchy business plan.

Though perhaps a little more solidly thought out than eKibbutz.com.

H.P. Lovesauce wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

"MyIsrael" sure sounds like a 90s era dot-com with a sketchy business plan.

Though perhaps a little more solidly thought out than eKibbutz.com.

This might be P&C, but there are limits of decency and you, sir, have crossed the line!!

OG_slinger wrote:
H.P. Lovesauce wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

"MyIsrael" sure sounds like a 90s era dot-com with a sketchy business plan.

Though perhaps a little more solidly thought out than eKibbutz.com.

This might be P&C, but there are limits of decency and you, sir, have crossed the line!!

I love/hate you both right now.

I think avoiding this thread for a week right after posting wasn't a bad idea .

Currently both sides are engaging in one sided activities and negotiation is a stalemate. The sentiment in Israel is that talking with the Palestinians is a waste of time. The world would hate either way due to a rising Antisemitic sentiments in Europe and the USA ( opinion article about it I thought about starting a thread but It's not that sexy). The anti antisemitism only makes the Jews in different country want to come to Israel to avoid the oppression they feel in their home countries .

Israel for years have been zigzaging from what it's told to do and from what it think is right to do. I found a good article about the Annexation of the Golan Height :

The whole procedure,which took just six hours, was a display of Mr. Begin's political power and the disarray of the opposition. Mr. Begin said Israel had avoided consulting with the United States because to do so, to receive a "no" from Washington and then go ahead, "would have been much more serious" for American-Israeli relations.

This may mean that if a move like the one that was suggested by the right wing organization happen then it may be done in haste like before. Don't be too surprised that everyone I told about this "crazy" plan said it's a great Idea. Israel is turning more and more right wing. It doesn't mean we're gonna go kill people or go to war more often but it means we'll hear more about right wing Ideologists. Begin who annexed the Gollan wasn't really a hardcore warhawk. The one of first thing he did when he was elected was to grant asylum and citizenship to Vietnamese refugees . He also made peace with Egypt , I heard that Sharon pushed to get into Lebanon and after that was found unsuitable to act as a minister of defense. .

This plan isn't far from happening. Now Netanyahu has a 78% of parliament in his pocket (early elections will kill Kadima and it's now starting to break apart). With a big majority you can do big things (if you are over 2/3 you can postpone election too).

Recent events have supported the popular public belief that making peace with the Arabs is a waste of time. Israel have gave Egypt a piece of land back that's rich in natural resources. The Egyptians agreed to sell us some of those resources . Now the Egyptians stooped supplying us gas and after the revolution the gas pipe exploded about 13 or 14 times. There are talks about canceling the peace treaty . Egypt is also not doing enough to prevent attacks from its borders and it let military supplies flow from Iran to the Gaza strip for years through its territory.

The Islamic brotherhood is who has a big majority in Egypt is practically the parent organization for Hamas. An angry mob almost lynched our ambassador and staff a few month ago (good thing they still listen to US diplomats). When Israel is isolated it tends to decide things on its own and the world may not like the result but most have learned to live with them.

Israel may not like the result, either.

I think the thing that's hardest for westerners to understand about this region is the overwhelming pervasive history. Grudges in this area go back not decades, but generations. Political talk may go back as far as the 70's, but the grudges go all the way back to even before a bunch of old white dudes deciding that the way to make it up to the Jews that survived Hitler was to give them Palestine.

But subsequent to the Allies mandate that the Palestinians were just sh*t out of luck, sucks to be you, hey, how's that "resettlement camp" working out for you...it is not terribly hard to understand why a bunch of farmers and other itinerant workers are angry every time they see their grandfather's orange grove on the other side of an armed fence line.

I have spent my entire life hoping for peace in the Holy Lands. It's only recently that I've decided that it's never going to happen. As long as Israelis believe that they have a "holy writ" to occupy that land, and as long as the Palestinians believe that the Israelis have stolen their birthright, there will be war.

There are nearly a million Palestinians who CURRENTLY live and will die in refugee camps, some of them within sight of their own homes. That these people turn to jihad cannot surprise anyone. If we had a million Jews in camps, or a million Japanese in camps, or a million of anyone but Arabs in camps for 60 years, don't you think the world would f*cking care? But a million Arabs? Meh, f*ck em.

Think of it this way; imagine if America still had the Japanese internment camps. Still. And Americans born there weren't Americans, they were the enemy. And America refused to allow in medical supplies, or building materials, or educational materials, or fresh water...would we be real surprised if they figured out a way to start launching rockets at LA or wherever was close? Would you expect them to throw rocks at the guards? If you had been born in that situation; do you really think you wouldn't pick up a rock?

By the same token; Israelis have had sh*t thrown at them for 60 years, so their a little trepidacious about allowing the Palestinians to have voting rights, or property rights, or the rights of citizens.

My greatgrandmother kept a diary. As it is written in Aramaic, translating has been slow and random; because I most of what I know of the language is from growing up Maronite Catholic, and she didn't really talk about sit, stand, kneel, which ya know, is the part I know. But in it, she talks about her Jewish neighbors, and her Muslim neighbors, and how everybody got along just fine, and they all agreed on the fact that they hated the Brits.

My point is this: When Palestine was an open land, that allowed everyone to settle where ever they wanted, and everyone was equal under the law; it was a functional, non-bomby, sort of place. (Well except for the Zionist Irgun, who blew up sh*t pretty regularly.)

It was when the Allies stepped in and decided that some people were more equal than others that the problems started. And as long as that remains the status quo, the problems will remain.

This "annexation plan" is an end run to try and disenfranchise even more Palestinians, and thereby make it harder to unite the territories.

How we can ever overcome 60 years of hate and violence; that I do not know.

[edit]*sigh* nevermind, I'm in a REALLY foul mood this week, and I don't have anything nice to say.[/edit]

Sorry about the early response but . The Israeli government Almost annexed the west bank but Netanyahu thought it was a little too early . It's something that his ideology generally support but as you all know timing is important.

duckideva wrote:

My greatgrandmother kept a diary. As it is written in Aramaic, translating has been slow and random; because I most of what I know of the language is from growing up Maronite Catholic, and she didn't really talk about sit, stand, kneel, which ya know, is the part I know. But in it, she talks about her Jewish neighbors, and her Muslim neighbors, and how everybody got along just fine, and they all agreed on the fact that they hated the Brits.

My point is this: When Palestine was an open land, that allowed everyone to settle where ever they wanted, and everyone was equal under the law; it was a functional, non-bomby, sort of place. (Well except for the Zionist Irgun, who blew up sh*t pretty regularly.)

I bet that Diary is a historical treasure maybe you should consider sharing it with researchers of the time. Aramaic is a prehistoric language that was used as an International language about 1500-4000 years ago. It's still spoken wildly but many cultures of the middle east speak Aramaic . A lot of Jewish books are also written in Aramaic. The Talmud , which is written in Aramaic and Hebrew was recently translated to Arabic by Jordanian scholars .

There are a bunch of documentaries about British Mandate and Ottoman Palestine but most of the ones I saw were in Hebrew. The mutual killings of Arabs and Jews started well before Israel's independence.

The Israeli War of independence wasn't exactly fought against Arab residents of Israel It was fought against All former mandate countries including Jordan, Egypt, Syria (French) and Iraq. The British were scum that what everyone agree on . I heard they could have saved a million Jews but let them be sent to the death camps . The Etzel and Lehi drove the British out with terrorism and the Hagana declared independence (well they almost didn't) . The Jews in Israel also helped the British take it over from the Ottoman Turks but we the resident learned they can't be trusted . Israel also learn with time we can't Trust the French (after 1967 war ) or Americans (before 1967 war) The Russians were friendly at the beginning and then became allies with our enemies.

As I said earlier in the post what I posted about two weeks ago almost turned into reality. The government can pass that law with a snap of two fingers if it wanted to (78% coalition) . I guess Bibi doesn't think it's a good time for it. This is the way the conflict is heading. Both sides are engaging in one sided political activities so eventually we'll reach the point of no return. The Palestinians don't have a whole lot of time for negotiation because the Israeli public lost its patience after almost 20 years of dead end negotiations.

Niseg wrote:
duckideva wrote:

My greatgrandmother kept a diary.

I bet that Diary is a historical treasure maybe you should consider sharing it with researchers of the time.

Usually people are putting a picture of Gene Wilder as Willi Wonka when they dip to that kind of condescending tone. Way to miss the point, by the way. How does Israel not being able to trust anyone relate to the fact that people used to be able to live near each other before, but now has to forcibly take land away?

Atras wrote:
Niseg wrote:
duckideva wrote:

My greatgrandmother kept a diary.

I bet that Diary is a historical treasure maybe you should consider sharing it with researchers of the time.

Usually people are putting a picture of Gene Wilder as Willi Wonka when they dip to that kind of condescending tone. Way to miss the point, by the way. How does Israel not being able to trust anyone relate to the fact that people used to be able to live near each other before, but now has to forcibly take land away?

There are different levels of trust. I actually cut out a piece from that post which made its context jump. I saw a street named Operation Danny and I didn't know about it. It's something that happened in 1948 . My knowledge of 1948 and earlier is fairly limited.

The Jews did manage to live in peace with many of the inhabitants of Palestine but they did have some clashes. Her grandmother probably lived during the British mandate/Ottoman rule . I know little about that period of time. As far as I heard most of the Arabs migrated to Palestine from arab countries while a lot of Jews migrated from Europe.

And about the "land grabbing" . It's not really a land grab the entire west bank area C is under Israeli control and it was conquered from Jordan which didn't want it back. The suggestion solution is turning a physical reality into a legal one. This May complicate the lives of the Palestinians living in area and the people living in A and B would be a little freer in their territories but they won't have much hope of gaining more. This plan isn't Ideal because some Jewish heritage sights would stay in Palestinian hand which would probably refuse to let any Jews enter them.

Here is a map i got from iris.org.il which seem to have a lot of map good resources.

IMAGE(http://www.iris.org.il/images/oslob3.gif)

The suggestion is turning most of the white part greens along with a few of the yellow dots .

Here are the things the Palestinians rejected so far: Ehud Barak first offered the map on the left (85%) and after negotiation ithe offered the map on the right(95+%) including the return of the Golan to Syria :
IMAGE(http://www.iris.org.il/images/80_percent_sm.jpg)IMAGE(http://www.iris.org.il/images/camp_david_map.jpg)

I think they were fairly generous offers but due to the political changes in Israel is becoming more and more right wing. The right generally won't be as generous(Begin was but that was a long time ago) is negotiations. The public already lost faith in the peace talks. Having a brittle peace with Egypt reaffirm the right wing position that making painful concessions to the Arabs is a mistake.

The first map is the reality without negotiation there is a chance the government would make moves to immortalize it. Now there is a 78% coalition which is extremely rare. The government can practically postpone the election (2/3 vote) and stay in power longer than the 1.5 years they have left.The government is also composed of mainly right wing (Kadima might be talking peace but they started two wars when they were in power).

Not quite directly on topic, but this didn't quite deserve its own thread:

Israel stole enriched uranium from U.S. stockpiles to make its first nuclear weapons.

You're actually citing a well known anti-Semitic paper as a source on Israel?

If you are into conspiracy sites try debka.com but it's pro-Israeli or run by Israelis (not the same thing - ever heard of Neturei Karta?) .

I looked up that American Free Press on wikipedia has the words related "antisemitism" all over it. I'm still not sure about the truth. If they are in the buisness of propaganda then it's not always based on a lie.

I've heard that the Soreq nuclear research center is closing down because its ran out of nuclear fuel that Israel got from the USA (and can't get more) . The Hebrew version said Israel got 150 fuel rods from the USA in the 60s ( I think that was before the NPT was signed). I'm not sure how each rod weighs. if it's 20kg that's about 3tons of rods. I'm not sure how much of that is uranium. On one site I've read that using the rods you can get 1% plutonium . As far as I understand in order to build a nuke you need about 10kg of plutonium which means you need about 1 ton of uranium nuclear waste per bomb.

I'm still seriously doubt the Palestinians should be worried about Israel's nuclear capabilities. They are more likely be killed by their own people either directly or as human shields.

I don't think much moved in the direction of the original topic. Naftali Benet Joined "the Jewish Home" and he's trying to get elected to head it . This can spice up the upcoming election which may come sooner than 2013 .

Israel's Bomb is the source Wikipedia cites for the same claim.

Robear wrote:

You're actually citing a well known anti-Semitic paper as a source on Israel?

The source is actually the Institute for Research: Middle Eastern Policy. And they got their information from US government documents gathered using the Freedom of Information Act.

Conspiracy theories and charges of antisemitism aside, it's a theory that answers the pesky question of just where did Israel get the materials it needed for it's early nuclear weapons program. There were only five nuclear powers back when this supposedly happened and I think it would be safe to rule out Russia and China straight away. That left the UK, France, and the US. But only the US had a large enough nuclear program going where some U-235 could be skimmed off the top.

OG_slinger wrote:

Conspiracy theories and charges of antisemitism aside, it's a theory that answers the pesky question of just where did Israel get the materials it needed for it's early nuclear weapons program.

Uranium isn't hard to get but it's hard to enrich. I've found this link Israel got 300 tons of uranium from South Africa and it's producing 10 tons of uranium per year domestically .

OG_slinger wrote:

There were only five nuclear powers back when this supposedly happened and I think it would be safe to rule out Russia and China straight away. That left the UK, France, and the US. But only the US had a large enough nuclear program going where some U-235 could be skimmed off the top.

You can't rule out anyone. Russia told Czechoslovakia to sell us weapons in 1948 especially because of the communist nature of early 20th century Israel . After the Russians started selling weapon systems to the Arabs they kind of switched sides. The French were friendly with Israel and I heard they helped us with nuclear technology. I don't think we had relations with China until much later. I'm not sure the relations with Britain was good after the mandate .

I think the figures of Israel's presumed nuclear warheads is inflated (75-400 warheads) but it could be true . Anyways the wikipedia article on the subject has a lot of information. It also mention laser enrichment which is based on a 1973 Israeli patent. Israel was dealing and stealing a lot those days. Being surrounded by enemies kinda make you want to get WMD which are usually used as deterrents and bargaining chips .

Israel WMD isn't really related to the topic you can just open another one because this one is more about Israeli politics and the Palestinian conflict. I'm not really sure why people are worried about Israel's nuclear weapons . Only if we had a reenactment of 1973 war there will be a risk that Israel would use its unconventional arsenal.

Niseg wrote:

Uranium isn't hard to get but it's hard to enrich. I've found this link Israel got 300 tons of uranium from South Africa and it's producing 10 tons of uranium per year domestically.

And yet the article you quoted says that that amount of uranium "is grossly insufficient for its needs" and that even if you combine all that uranium from South Africa, what Israel has produced domestically, and what it got from its recycling program that that amount of uranium *may* be enough to account for what it's nuclear weapons program has produced.

Or you can factor in what it stole from America. After all, Israel has a long and proven track record of stealing technology and spying on us. It's really hard to claim innocence when the company accused of funneling the materials to Israel was funded by someone with deep ties to Israel's intelligence services.

Niseg wrote:

You can't rule out anyone. Russia told Czechoslovakia to sell us weapons in 1948 especially because of the communist nature of early 20th century Israel . After the Russians started selling weapon systems to the Arabs they kind of switched sides. The French were friendly with Israel and I heard they helped us with nuclear technology. I don't think we had relations with China until much later. I'm not sure the relations with Britain was good after the mandate .

I think the figures of Israel's presumed nuclear warheads is inflated (75-400 warheads) but it could be true . Anyways the wikipedia article on the subject has a lot of information. It also mention laser enrichment which is based on a 1973 Israeli patent. Israel was dealing and stealing a lot those days. Being surrounded by enemies kinda make you want to get WMD which are usually used as deterrents and bargaining chips .

Israel WMD isn't really related to the topic you can just open another one because this one is more about Israeli politics and the Palestinian conflict. I'm not really sure why people are worried about Israel's nuclear weapons . Only if we had a reenactment of 1973 war there will be a risk that Israel would use its unconventional arsenal.

Yes, we can rule out everyone but the US. The Soviets didn't give Israel any nuclear materials. It had decided by the mid-50s that Israel wasn't the horse it was going to back in the Middle East.

And there's absolutely no chance in hell that it gave Israel nuclear materials in the 60s since it was a proxy of the US by then. The Soviets certainly didn't hand over nuclear materials after it got its hand smacked in the Cuban Missile Crisis and it certainly didn't hand over its holiest of holies after Israel won the Six Day War (defeating the countries the Soviets had backed).

How Israel got it's nuclear weapons is always a valid topic of discussion since it's the only nation that still lies about its nuclear capabilities and it is currently threatening other nations with a massive preemptive military strike for the heinous crime of doing the exact same thing that it did.

We're worried about Israel's undeclared nuclear program because it's an aggressive country increasingly ruled by religious zealots who are conducting a slow genocide on the Palestinians and a dedicated program of apartheid on its own Arab citizens.

But polonium’s most famous victim was Alexander Litvinenko, the Russian spy-turned-dissident who died in London in 2006 after a lingering illness. A British inquiry found that he was poisoned with polonium slipped into his tea at a sushi restaurant.

Looking into the relationship between Vladimir Putin and Arafat's rival and successor Mahmoud Abbas, this raises some questions.

Interesting...

More news about the main topic:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...

YnetNews wrote:

The committee, headed by Supreme Court Justice (Ret.) Edmond Levy, submitted its report in June, but its official findings were only made public on Monday.

The panel ruled that the State must devise ways to legalize contested settlement and outposts in the West Bank and ease land acquisition and zoning protocols for Jews residing in the area.
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Tackling the issue of sovereignty, the Levy Committee ruled that in its operations in the West Bank, "Israel does not meet the criteria of 'military occupation' as defined under international law."

The ruling is based on the fact that "no other legal entity has ever had its sovereignty over the area cemented under international law," the committee said, adding that the latter included Jordan, which ruled the area prior to the Six Day War.

West Bank settlements are legal since that is no provision in the international law that deems that having Jewish population in the area is illegal, the report added.

(maybe I quoted too much)

Looks like the committee is paving the way for partial annexation.