The reason we started playing draft is because the really competitive players just played their best champs and usually a game was decided by one of these players just obliterating their lane opponent. Personally I'm not sure the move to draft has solved anything since the games feel even more competitive now. I'm wondering if we're making the game too stressful for our community, I certainly feel guilty of doing this.
Sorry to anyone who was on my team that had to listen to my complaining. 0-5 on the night and 2-15 in my last 17 GWJ games. It makes the game not much fun to play anymore.
Good god, the pain. That was like my worst night ever. I think I went 1-4
Yeah, we all have those nights sometimes. I was 0-5 last night we did this. Though, Koz's streak seems a bit extreme We'll just have to stack the teams for you next time!
Latrine: That's still happening to some extent. Some people are just really strong with certain champs and they're winning games. I do wish we'd have some of the more experienced players playing champs they're either not familiar with or playing roles they're not as comfortable with to even the playing field a little. It's sort of silly spending all 3 bans to focus on hamstringing one person, especially when they just pick someone else that fits the same role admirably and facerolls (I'm talking to you, Jimmy. :P).
And yeah, I went 1-4 tonight. I'm really beginning to dislike playing AD - it requires so much work to become a contributing member of the team that if anything goes wrong you're battling to be relevant. Both games as Sivir tonight I was basically irrelevant all game... not fun at all.
Also, oily hates me. He never invites me when he makes the rooms.
Prisoner's dilemma. I'd like to play some heroes/roles I don't normally play, but if I make a "let's learn this guy" pick, and the other team goes tryhard, we get smoked. So the best I can get away with is to do something only slightly outside of my comfort zone.
This is most noticeable with mid lane. One of the fastest ways to get the game to go off the rails is to let someone who is newish lane mid against someone who knows what they're doing. So as much as I'd like to say "sure, I'll go play top and learn a new guy," if that leaves only someone inexperienced to go mid, that's not really an option unless we set up a newbs-only-mid agreement beforehand.
I am of the opinion that these games are exactly when you want to learn a new champ. Needing to fill in here or there for a comp has made me play some champs I am absolutely terrible at and improve in them.
Learning a champ against bots, vs learning a champ vs humans is totally different. I would hope that people feel like they can try a champ in this environment without being chastise by their fellow GWJ-ers, and I haven't seen it. On all the teams that I have been on I always hear constructive criticism, being offered to new and old players alike. Draft has broken me out of my normal group of champions (2nd or 3rd time morgana last night) and aside from Ahri I NEVER did AP mid, but I like the challenge.
There will always be some in this group that play way more games than others, you can see that by their normal totals, so they will always have an 'advantage' in just exposure to champions. I don't think we are punishing people that play less in our current format, but the more experienced people will always have a leg up, it's just the way it is.
Good god, the pain. That was like my worst night ever. I think I went 1-4
Don't let Dyni and I blind pick
Did I see a 110+ minute game happening last night?
All this whinging (at least from my perspective) is in the spirit of having competitive, interesting games. Unfortunately, the game does snowball pretty and that makes having games where the outcome is in doubt even halfway in rarer occurrences than I wish they were.
This is most noticeable with mid lane. One of the fastest ways to get the game to go off the rails is to let someone who is newish lane mid against someone who knows what they're doing.
And yet that's just what we had in the first game last night. Rather than getting fiddly by trying to handicap the more skilled/experienced players, I'd much rather see those players self-policing and helping try to prevent unbalanced lane situations like those during team selection.
How do we self impose 'handicaps'? Both teams built the best teams to their ability. If we impose too many rules we are in danger of where the rest of America is going like little leagues not keeping scores. People win, people lose, people move on with their lives. A little harsh I know, but I couldn't imagine being a kid now when there are no winners and losers in competitive recreation sports.
I consider myself an above average player in most roles (I am an absolute sh*t support), and people are countering me for it, the same way we are countering Dyni, Fedora, Crinkle, etc. I'm not sure how much more we can do without totally watering down the experience.
I'm definitely all for picking champs outside my comfort zone. But like Crinkle said, all of the experienced players need to do it together or else it's not fun.
btw, I have to say I've been really impressed with everyone's attitude towards switching teams. While no one says "X player is better than Y player" it is definitely implied when we say "hey, in order to balance teams, give us X player and we'll give you Y player". However, no one has pitched a fit about it so far (that I know of).
Good job checking the egos, guys!
I also think I have gotten away from talking to the newer players about strat/items/etc. The more experienced players need to be encouraging mentors more than we need to be focused tryhards, IMO.
How do we self impose 'handicaps'? Both teams built the best teams to their ability. If we impose too many rules we are in danger of where the rest of America is going like little leagues not keeping scores. People win, people lose, people move on with their lives. A little harsh I know, but I couldn't imagine being a kid now when there are no winners and losers in competitive recreation sports.
I consider myself an above average player in most roles (I am an absolute sh*t support), and people are countering me for it, the same way we are countering Dyni, Fedora, Crinkle, etc. I'm not sure how much more we can do without totally watering down the experience.
I disagree. We can do a better job here. Most of the time I'm so focused on team comp and "who are you most comfortable with" during champ select. What we should do is agree BEFORE THE GAME STARTS on what lanes the newbies are going to be in. Then we can match them up. I've already posted why I think this is a good idea for everyone.
Don't mis interpret my one line whine! I had a BLAST last night. A total blast.
Happytime Harry wrote:How do we self impose 'handicaps'? Both teams built the best teams to their ability. If we impose too many rules we are in danger of where the rest of America is going like little leagues not keeping scores. People win, people lose, people move on with their lives. A little harsh I know, but I couldn't imagine being a kid now when there are no winners and losers in competitive recreation sports.
I consider myself an above average player in most roles (I am an absolute sh*t support), and people are countering me for it, the same way we are countering Dyni, Fedora, Crinkle, etc. I'm not sure how much more we can do without totally watering down the experience.
I disagree. We can do a better job here. Most of the time I'm so focused on team comp and "who are you most comfortable with" during champ select. What we should do is agree BEFORE THE GAME STARTS on what lanes the newbies are going to be in. Then we can match them up. I've already posted why I think this is a good idea for everyone.
That's a little harder with newer players. They're less likely to have a lot of champs they're comfortable with in a particular role. So if one of those champs gets banned or picked by the other team for a different role, then they're a newer player playing a champ they're less familiar with and that's a recipe for having a really frustrating game (for that player).
I'm really hoping to get in on one of these days at some point.
If you sit out a game, you are supposed to 100% be in the next game, so make sure to speak up to fedora if he's organizing for that night. You shouldn't be out of more than 1 game in a row.
If you sit out a game, you are supposed to 100% be in the next game, so make sure to speak up to fedora if he's organizing for that night. You shouldn't be out of more than 1 game in a row.
Yes, update your status in vent for assured picking. Fedora is good about getting those people in first.
I just want better games, however they come about.
Also, oily hates me. He never invites me when he makes the rooms. :sad:
Oily is a weiner
That's a little harder with newer players. They're less likely to have a lot of champs they're comfortable with in a particular role. So if one of those champs gets banned or picked by the other team for a different role, then they're a newer player playing a champ they're less familiar with and that's a recipe for having a really frustrating game (for that player).
I would say it's more frustrating going 0/5 against an experienced player than having a fun matchup of new champs against a fellow n00b.
Also, when you're a n00b, it doesnt really matter what the champion matchup is. Counterpicks/metagame doesn't really apply. Just pick a champ you know and face off against a fellow n00b, don't worry about the lane or the "meta".
Fed was right: this game snowballs hard. If you lane against me and you go 0/5 and give me an 80 cs lead going into teamfights, you might as well be a caster minion for all the good you'll do. However, if you lane against a fellow n00b and have an even matchup, you will be more decked out item-wise and you'll be more relevant (and thus, have more fun) in teamfights.
Having lategame relevance means you'll learn a LOT more about the game and become a better player much faster.
Yes, update your status in vent for assured picking. Fedora is good about getting those people in first.
This.
Also, don't fire up a Dominion game thinking it will finish before GWJ games get started. It won't and you'll be a dick for asking people to wait (I've been that dick).
Fed was right: this game snowballs hard. If you lane against me and you go 0/5 and give me an 80 cs lead going into teamfights, you might as well be a caster minion for all the good you'll do. However, if you lane against a fellow n00b and have an even matchup, you will be more decked out item-wise and you'll be more relevant (and thus, have more fun) in teamfights.
Sadly, snowballing doesn't even require that big of an imbalance depending on the matchup. When I laned against you (Riven) as Vlad you were only up a kill and an assist and about 20-30 CS, but the difference in team fights was marked.
Having lategame relevance means you'll learn a LOT more about the game and become a better player much faster.
This. It's less about winning and losing and more about people feeling like they're relevant at ANY stage of the game.
Also, oily hates me. He never invites me when he makes the rooms. :sad:
MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE NICER?
Also, I thought I did invite you to the 2 games I started. I'm sorry if I didn't or if it filled up before you got there.
But I do hate Dyni.
Anyway, yeah, all the games I was in last night snowballed something fierce. I don't know what we'll need to balance teams better but we'll need to do something.
It might be as simple as saying "are these teams as good as we can get them? Ok, they're still not balanced, how do we fix that?" and then someone going random or maybe assigning newer people to specific lanes so they'll play each other.
I can see an argument for fixing it and I can see arguments for leaving things as is. I, for one, have gotten a LOT better just in the last few weeks because people much better than me are playing their primary champs.
Last night we also had over 20 people. If that keeps up, we might make one game super serious and the other game more of a 'try new champs and roles and get better' kind of game.
Sadly, snowballing doesn't even require that big of an imbalance depending on the matchup. When I laned against you (Riven) as Vlad you were only up a kill and an assist and about 20-30 CS, but the difference in team fights was marked.
Oh yeah, forgot to tell you: that was a good Vlad. Riven is a pretty damn good counter to Vlad so that's a tough matchup. I thought you played it really well (esp since I got a ton of ganks to help me).
Yes, 1 kill/1 assist/30 cs (lets call it 800 gold) isn't that important, but you have to remember what that allowed me to do. I was able to keep you pinned at your tower. This meant you couldn't help with dragon without losing a ton of CS (or your tower). It also gave me a lot of freedom to roam around ganking mid and messing with your jungler.
So it's not all about the items that the early 800g gives you (maybe an extra dorans and/or boots2), but more about the freedom to leverage that small advantage across the entire map. This is even more dangerous with someone mobile/damaging like Riven.
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! I should be able to make it on Saturday. The girlfriend has a bachelorette party that night, so I will be free from her incessant planning of activities.
Oh yeah, forgot to tell you: that was a good Vlad. Riven is a pretty damn good counter to Vlad so that's a tough matchup. I thought you played it really well (esp since I got a ton of ganks to help me).
Thanks. There aren't too many top laners that give me trouble up there as Vlad but I had to be on my toes the entire time, especially since I don't think I saw my jungler up there all game. Without jungler help and a Fiora jungler on your side that's pretty much a guaranteed abandon-the-tower or get dove scenario every time.
Yes, 1 kill/1 assist/30 cs (lets call it 800 gold) isn't that important, but you have to remember what that allowed me to do. I was able to keep you pinned at your tower. This meant you couldn't help with dragon without losing a ton of CS (or your tower). It also gave me a lot of freedom to roam around ganking mid and messing with your jungler.
So it's not all about the items that the early 800g gives you (maybe an extra dorans and/or boots2), but more about the freedom to leverage that small advantage across the entire map. This is even more dangerous with someone mobile/damaging like Riven.
True, true - I was pretty much permastuck in-lane. I think the part of the game that's still the most unintuitive to me is when to leave lane. Since farm is so important, I have a tendency (especially as Vlad) to just stay put and keep farming to keep building up an advantage. Getting better at changing that up when the circumstances call for it.
Don't mis interpret my one line whine! I had a BLAST last night. A total blast.
the one game I played was when you had somehow angered Fedora so he purposefully wanted to lane against you and kept saying in vent that by beating you bloody in lane you would learn, what you would learn is to never anger him I guess. But really it was a dreadful thing to watch. For team balance having pro players vs pro players works up to the point of jungle gank. One of the matches I watched of top vs top with two newer players was unbalanced by a jungler running in and killing him. If you are going to do new vs new then make sure the jungler knows not to run in and attack.
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